The Energon Pub

DavidT wrote:

Shadowman wrote:What Original Sin said was 1. A joke and 2. Not directed at you.

While we're on the subject, Barack Obama is still more experienced that Sarah Palin.

DavidT wrote:Don't you DARE leave Clinton out of it. He didn't do much to prevent such things as 9/11 and he even accepted partial blame for not going after Bin Laden.

Not everything is Bush's fault....

Don't forget that Reagan gave funds and weapons to the Taliban.

Don't forget that Clinton gave nuclear blueprints to Iran and also provided missile technology to the Chinese, which increased the accuracy of their ballistic missiles, and he provided nuclear technology to the North Koreans that eventually enabled them to develop nuclear weapons.

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1. Iran had a nuclear program since the 1950s.

2. The Chinese were using gunpowder-based missiles since they discovered it in the 9th century. (By discovered, I mean, it was an accident when trying to make something else) But remember, the US has had a fairly easy relationship with China since the late '70s.

3. North Korea has had nuclear reactors since the '80s. In 1994, the US had them shut down.

While on the subject of Obama's inauguration, I pose this question: Why would Obama allow himself to be sworn in with Lincoln's bible when Lincoln clearly didn't believe anyone other than a white man should hold the office of the presidency? Seems Mr. Obama doesn't even know American History. And don't get me wrong, I am not Lincoln bashing. This country owes him a debt that could never be repaid for abolishing slavery.

I offer this quotation from Lincoln and the link to it.

http://quotes.liberty-tree.ca/quote/abr ... quote_c318



"I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races - that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied everything."

He doesn't know American History because of a dubious fact about Lincoln that I'm sure most Americans don't know?

EDIT: And by the way, the debt doesn't need to be paid to Lincoln...

Shadowman wrote:He doesn't know American History because of a dubious fact about Lincoln that I'm sure most Americans don't know?

EDIT: And by the way, the debt doesn't need to be paid to Lincoln...

If most Americans don't know their own history that is quite sad. I wouldn't classify that fact as dubious. In fact I think it is very important about where we were and were we are going as a people. In fact Obama probably knew about it, hoped that most Americans didn't know about it and used the Lincoln bible because most people only know of the Emancipation Proclamation and the Gettysburg Address. He played the American people like guitar. Bravo to him and his political maneuvering and shame on us for not being aware of it.

DavidT wrote:

Skice wrote:

DavidT wrote:Bush did a pretty damn good job for what he faced, especially as soon as he went into office he had to deal with 9/11. How many more terrorist attacks have we had since 9/11???

If Bush did his job right in the first place, 9/11 would have just been another day on the calender.

Don't you DARE leave Clinton out of it. He didn't do much to prevent such things as 9/11 and he even accepted partial blame for not going after Bin Laden.

I thought Clinton made a very robust rebuttal to such claims, though he does accept ultimate responsibility for how things turned out. I clearly remember him talking about the threat posed by Bin Laden, and at the time everyone acted like it was something he made up as a distraction from the whole skirt-chasing scandal.

One also has to take that quote with a certain appreciation for context. The article with the quote says in plain view that it came from a debate between him and Mr. Douglas during the Presidential Election. At the time, that was a way to encourage southern voters to not only vote for Lincoln, but avoid the south's secession. It eventually happened, but Lincoln led the nation to reunification and freedom for the slaves.

The racist tone of that quote is just a reflection of the attitude of the time. Lincoln attempted to offer a sense of security to white America. Many whites in the country feared blacks becoming equal or superior and that fear continued on after the war all the way to the 1960's and 1970's.

So no, I don't think that quote has any significance nor does it detract from the legacy of Abraham Lincoln.

I meant to post here yesterday but by the time I got home from my mums I pretty much went straight to bed..

Myself, my fiancee, and my mother, all watched the inauguration on BBC news 24 which was live (were in the UK by the way)

Even though none of us are American.. I know I certainly felt very proud to be watching part of history unfold before my eyes.

I wish him best of luck and while I may not be all that big on politics.. I have high hopes for him

Well, I see we've had fun on this thread all night long. I don't know if all of this is what Ryan had in mind when he started it yesterday.

hotrod1979 wrote:While we're on the subject, Barack Obama is still more experienced that Sarah Palin.



I would say they are relatively equal in the experience arena, however Palin was running as a VP candidate (basically just a no-power figurehead in our system of gov't).

And what experience is that? being a 'community organizer?" Im sorry, but I certainly dont need an organizer telling me its my civic duty to vote.

Palin:
Governor of Alaska 2 years
Mayor of Wasilla, AK (1996-2002);executive experience
President of Alaska Conference of Mayors;

City Council member (1992-1996)

Obama:
State Senator (1997-2004);

executive experience-- NONE


How they dealt with corrupt officials in their state:

Palin:
Exposed legal violations and conflicts of interest of Alaska Republican leaders;

Campaigned against corrupt GOP Representative;

Ran against and defeated corrupt incumbent governor in GOP primary

Obama:

Launched political career in home of unrepentant domestic terrorist Bill Ayers (and still refers to him as a part of “mainstream Democratic Chicago”;

Purchased home with help of convicted felon Tony Rezko


bipartisan credential:

Palin:
Married to a non-Republican;

Exposed corruption within own party;

Campaigned for Lt. Gov. Sean Parnell against corrupt GOP congressman Don Young;

Called out Sen Ted Stevens (R-AK) to “come clean” about financial dealings that are under fed investigation

Legislative Record Passed a landmark ethics reform bill;


Obama:
talks about bipartisainship











Who has more experience?

the man really has none... for the 300+ days he actually sat in the Senate, he only voted present 100 times! guess all the bills were above his pay grade. he cant use that excuse now.

hotrod1979 wrote:While we're on the subject, Barack Obama is still more experienced that Sarah Palin.



I would say they are relatively equal in the experience arena, however Palin was running as a VP candidate (basically just a no-power figurehead in our system of gov't).

I'd actually say running a state is more experience than an equal amount of time being one of a hundred Senators. Running a state is a big job compared to showing up in a senate chamber and voting occasionally, where you can blend in with 50 or so fellow party members.

Of course Palin wasn't running for President, as you mentioned. Many people often forget this. Traditionally you put them less experienced person as VP for backup, the more a President (although there are occasional exceptions, like Bush's most recent VP, but Bush had lots of experience, unlike Obama.)

DevastaTTor wrote:Well, I see we've had fun on this thread all night long. I don't know if all of this is what Ryan had in mind when he started it yesterday.

It's not.
I am seriously considering removing all non essential posts from this thread too.

Sarah Palin could not answer the simple question of, 'What are the responsibilities of the Vice President?'

She couldn't. It was absolutely shameful and embarrassing.

And it wasn't that she just couldn't answer the question, she got it wrong...

Vice President has two responsibilities/powers

1. Cast a tie breaking vote in the Senate.
2. Become President should the current President die or be unable to fill his role.

Her response?

Q: Brandon Garcia wants to know, “What does the Vice President do?”

PALIN: That’s something that Piper would ask me! … [T]hey’re in charge of the U.S. Senate so if they want to they can really get in there with the senators and make a lot of good policy changes that will make life better for Brandon and his family and his classroom.

Look, I am a fiscal conservative. I thought McCain was a decent man.

This woman was absolutely, unequivocally, unprepared and incapable of doing the job. She was a rash choice on McCain's part to attempt to swing disenfranchised women voters after Hilary lost the Primary.

Bumblethumper wrote:

DavidT wrote:

Skice wrote:

DavidT wrote:Bush did a pretty damn good job for what he faced, especially as soon as he went into office he had to deal with 9/11. How many more terrorist attacks have we had since 9/11???

If Bush did his job right in the first place, 9/11 would have just been another day on the calender.

Don't you DARE leave Clinton out of it. He didn't do much to prevent such things as 9/11 and he even accepted partial blame for not going after Bin Laden.

I thought Clinton made a very robust rebuttal to such claims, though he does accept ultimate responsibility for how things turned out. I clearly remember him talking about the threat posed by Bin Laden, and at the time everyone acted like it was something he made up as a distraction from the whole skirt-chasing scandal.

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....and where's the rest of that video???? I do believe he eventually admitted he didn't do enough....


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Counterpunch wrote:Sarah Palin could not answer the simple question of, 'What are the responsibilities of the Vice President?'

She couldn't. It was absolutely shameful and embarrassing.

And it wasn't that she just couldn't answer the question, she got it wrong...



This woman was absolutely, unequivocally, unprepared and incapable of doing the job. She was a rash choice on McCain's part to attempt to swing disenfranchised women voters after Hilary lost the Primary.

And Obama stated that we have 57 states.

so I expect you to use the same rationale as you just put forth to call him shameful and embarassing.

---otherwise your comments are only based on your political leanings and unbiased.



and considering Palin has more experiece in govt than either Obama or Clinton; by your words they are also "absolutely, unequivocally, unprepared and incapable of doing the job"



Not to be taken as a personal attack, but your claims are based off liberal talking points which have been repeatedly disproven.

Wow. I am glad everyone spent their night spewing political talking points provided to them by their preferred media source. People, the election is over, there is nothing you can do about it now, maybe you should have campaigned harder for your chosen guy.

I just have to say that yesterday was a historic day for America and the world. I just hope Barack Obama is able to achieve his lofty goals.

tile_mcgillus wrote:Wow. I am glad everyone spent their night spewing political talking points provided to them by their preferred media source. People, the election is over, there is nothing you can do about it now, maybe you should have campaigned harder for your chosen guy.

I just have to say that yesterday was a historic day for America and the world. I just hope Barack Obama is able to achieve his lofty goals.

Why does everyone refer to yesterday as historic? Why do people look at Obama and only see a black man as president? Why can't they look a just see a man as president. Everyone always talks of racial equality (which I fully support), but they obviously can't leave race out of the equation. It shouldn't matter is the new president is black. For that matter white, pink, or even green. Stop seeing color people!

By the way, I sure hope that everyone who has posted on this subject actually did go vote in the election on Nov. 4th.

Hotrod...

Yesterday was historic. No I don't specifically mean because a man who was not white was sworn in, but because any time a new person is named to the office is a historic moment.

And besides, yesterday was a huge day for millions of people, regardless of if they were happy because:
The first President of color.
The end of the Bush Presidency.
What some see as part of the realization of Dr. King's dream.
What may have been the largest collection of media sheep ever.
The belief that something big has changed for whatever rational.

Yesterday was historic, even if it's just as a line in a history book, but without a doubt it is a day that will be in the history books, just as would have been if John McCain had won. Attempts to say otherwise just cheapen any other points you feel the need to debate.

Editor wrote:Hotrod...

Yesterday was historic. No I don't specifically mean because a man who was not white was sworn in, but because any time a new person is named to the office is a historic moment.

And besides, yesterday was a huge day for millions of people, regardless of if they were happy because:
The first President of color.
The end of the Bush Presidency.
What some see as part of the realization of Dr. King's dream.
What may have been the largest collection of media sheep ever.
The belief that something big has changed for whatever rational.

Yesterday was historic, even if it's just as a line in a history book, but without a doubt it is a day that will be in the history books, just as would have been if John McCain had won. Attempts to say otherwise just cheapen any other points you feel the need to debate.

good job listing the thought points from both sides of the argument... a logical example of the meaning of yesterday as viewed by both sides.





All this forum topic has done is show that there are very strong-felt views on both sides about this election; views equally echoed around the nation.

Historic? Not really considering that we go through this same thing every 4 - 8 years.

Historic because hes "black"? BFD....there have been other first blacks, were those occasions touted as being just as historic? In the future will the first Asian, Mexican, Eskimo etc etc... president being sworn in be labeled in the same "historic" manner?

Historic because hes bi-racial?

Historic because its the first time in 20 years that we dont have a Bush or Clinton in office?

Historic because we are told its supposed to be so by all the talking heads?

Starscreams bad comedy wrote:Historic? Not really considering that we go through this same thing every 4 - 8 years.

Historic because hes "black"? BFD....there have been other first blacks, were those occasions touted as being just as historic? In the future will the first Asian, Mexican, Eskimo etc etc... president being sworn in be labeled in the same "historic" manner?

Historic because hes bi-racial?

Historic because its the first time in 20 years that we dont have a Bush or Clinton in office?

Historic because we are told its supposed to be so by all the talking heads?

THANK YOU!

I'm happy that the events surrounding the inauguration went well yesterday.

The country is apparently ready for a new direction and this new President has dared to set forth a new path. Starting off with a historic day such as yesterday and with the overall good will of America behind him (as well as a sympathetic Congress); there is a great potential for good, both in terms of our economy and the country's morale.

There will always be nay-sayers. There were folks who wished ill of Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, FDR, Eisenhower, and Regan. There always will be some degree of discontentment.

But for now, we would all be better served if at the very least, the things Obama has said about Government working for the people and a return to the values of personal and corporate responsibility were to come true.

The inauguration of Obama yesterday was significant because, living today and present there, where women and men who had lived through school district segregation, separation in military service, job discrimination, etc. As a McCain voter who, at the last minute, was given a unique opportunity to attend as press yesterday experiencing the reactions was enlightening. People celebrating there was significant simply because Obama was not wholly white; the fact that so many don't even see his race, only his policy, may down play the celebration but ironically it in itself is a reason to celebrate.

So perhaps others who are not recognizing the significance of this election in contrast to other elections would have their perspectives widened had the crowd shots singled out those praying thanks to Jesus, the God of Dr. King, versus those waving flags as a mob merely to stay warm. As the President did not receive my vote because of policy disagreements he has a large battle to win my trust; his election however, in-spite of race, is significant. Will I celebrate the first Asian-American or Latin-American elected? Frankly no; they ancestors were never slaves here. Obama's election is a MEASURE of progress and THAT is what should be celebrated despite policy differences.

If the banter returns to civility and respect to the site owner's requests I'll post some additional "on site" perspective; otherwise, it seems like a waste. I couldn't get past page 11 trying to catch up....

Last Note: If he acts on his inauguration speech and not on previous rhetoric, he'll become a man I was proud to have as president. But, as nature of his office, he already has my respect. My pride as an American, however, has always been in our constitution and character of our soldiers; thankfully that pride remains unaffected as elected officials change.

Counterpunch wrote:But for now, we would all be better served if at the very least, the things Obama has said about Government working for the people and a return to the values of personal and corporate responsibility were to come true.

Well said. If citizens and congress can get behind that government and corporations will have to follow.

Cyber Bishop wrote:

DevastaTTor wrote:Well, I see we've had fun on this thread all night long. I don't know if all of this is what Ryan had in mind when he started it yesterday.

It's not.
I am seriously considering removing all non essential posts from this thread too.

I'll say this much; never let it be said that Transfans aren't also passionate about politics.

Im not a fan of the guy. I just wanted to watch regular tv and all it was was that crap instead.
. People have been prematurely sucked and have invested so much into someone who hasnt done anything yet.
People called in sick for work to watch it....... and they live in canada

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Is there any chance of removing that picture of Obama's head from the top of Seibertron's website after today????


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