The Energon Pub

OptimusN1701 wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Leonardo wrote:Because, in the example that I gave, the two books are by two different writers from two different periods of time.

Two different writers, but the same character. IF the books are both authorized by the publisher, who I gather owns the character and property, then why would the second book not be canon?

As for the toy bios, I think they are canon. What I'm saying is they aren't part of the movie canon because the events related weren't part of the movie. They are, however, clearly part of the movie toy line canon, which is a separate continuity.

The Toy bios are clearly meant to be part of movie canon. The events in the bio of movie Jazz (G1 paint shceme) is meant to take place after the movie, and gives a continuity reason for the paint job. Now, whether this plays out in the sequel is another matter all together, but regardless, "canon" refers to the entire body of TF lore, while "continuity" and "continuiities" refer to just the continuities/realities themselves.

No, repainting him gives a reason to sell twice as many Jazz toys. For all anyone knows the bio is just lip service to the fans to get them to buy it. Just like the repaint of Energon Skyblast and the real gear line. There was now continuity they were worried about

Of course hasbro wants to sell more toys, but I wouldn't call the toy bios "lip-service" to the fans. The toy bios are meant to expand the movie univers, just as the game does and the novels and comics set in that continuity.

Leonardo wrote:RE: the books. If someone else penned and published another prequel to Jane Eyre and the events in that prequel contradicted the first prequel, would they both be canon? Jast as a note, there are inconsistencies between Wide Sargasso Sea and Jane Eyre as it is, largely to do with when they're set and characters' ages. Does that make them the same canon but different universes?

Not necessarily. One could also be considered a retcon or simply another version as remembered by a different character. Look at the differences in the various Gospels in the Bible. They're all about the dsame person, yet there are contradictions because each writer remembers the same events differently.

RE: the toy bios. You're saying that there can't be more than one canon, regardless of how many continuities (or universes) there are. Have I got that right? If so, then I fully understand what you're saying, in that contradicting events from all continuities are part of the same canon. Yes, I see that.

Exactly.

I suppose that leads us back to the point of the thread: how is canon defined? I don't know if there's an 'official' or authoritative answer; it's not something I've really looked into. What I can say is that some people see canon as a single entity encapsulating everything (I think that's your position) while others may argue that separate continuities create separate canons. Let me chew on this.

failing an official answer from Hasbor and Takarastating their canon policy, all we really have is what the dictionary defines as literary canon. Based on that definition, all officially licensed and approved materials are canon.

Tramp can you site an exsample other then Star Wars that considers other type of fiction as canon since I sited a few for you?

Bless you, Tekka.

Saber Prime wrote:It's simpler to list what is NOT canon.

Anything that comes from the Fans in the forms of fictions and/or personal prefrences/theries on the world of Transformers.

Do you mean, then, that anything published is canon? Or just that anything Hasbro / Takara licensed is canon?

Tramp, good point about the gospels.

The dictionary definition of canon does seem to be our only real recourse, as far as I can see. I think the use of the definition "authentic works of a writer" is a bit dubious as one can argue back and forth about who constitutes the writer[s] of Transformers, but certainly the "sanctioned body of work" definition would allow us to draw the conclusion that anything sanctioned by Hasbro / Takara is canon (therefore, as you say, it's all one canon that incorporates different continuities).

Perhaps this is our conclusion?

Saber Prime wrote:It's simpler to list what is NOT canon.

Anything that comes from the Fans in the forms of fictions and/or personal prefrences/theries on the world of Transformers.

I think Saber Prime has the best answer in regards to the thread's question.

Just a further question: if it is all one canon, does that mean people can't speak of "a canon for the IDW universe", for example?

Leonardo wrote:Just a further question: if it is all one canon, does that mean people can't speak of "a canon for the IDW universe", for example?

I guess if when you start the conversation that you make it clear you're talking about IDW's version of it, you could.

My definition of canon is whatever is stated in that show, in the spin off (eg BW applies to G1 toon with the 'Great Upgrade' and Cybertron leaving the Golden Age at some point after the Rebirth) or by the main writers of that series.

Each continuity has it's own canon and this does not apply to any other continuity. These conons are:

G1 toon - BW - BM
G1 Japanese
BW2 - BW Neo (I haven't seen these so I class them as seperate since I hear Primal is in BW2, despite being dead at that point in time.)
G1 Marvel
G1 DW
G1 IDW
RID
Armarda - Energon - Cybertron
Animated
Any others I may have missed.

So, you're of the mind that Transformers is made up of multiple canons rather than one overall canon with separate universes? Or is it one overall canon that can be broken down into smaller canons or sub-canons?

Different canons for each continuity. Unlike Star Trek, where all five series are in the same canon, I view Transformers as completely seperate to the other versions, unless it is an explicit continuation like G1 toon to BW or Armarda to Energon to Cybertron.

Otherwise, you end up with too many conflicting things.

Although some parts of each canon do overlap, they are mainly seperate.

In your view then, is there a distinction between 'canon' and 'universe'?

Yes. Universe is what they inhabit. Things that happen in the series happen in the universe.

Canon are the rules that govern that universe, the history of it.

People can hop universes into other series (thinking of Worlds Collide from Armarda here, though I haven't read it, I know what happens). When they hop, they enter a new universe, but the character that hops is still governed by the canon of their original universe.

If that makes sense.


Say Movie Prime entered Armarda.
G1 toon Galvatron entered Armarda at the same time.

Galvatron would still be the herald of Unicron from the movie, and he would still be completely insane.

Prime would still have fought Megatron at Mission City (who names a city that?) and would have lost the Allspark.

They would still have their own history, personality traits and skills intact based off where they came from, but they would be blips outside that canon that were now in.

And if Galvatron saw Armarda Unicron orbiting Cybertron, he would probably recognise him, but this Unicron would be a completely different one that didn't create Galvatron.

Yes, that would be my view.

Insurgent has an answer i find most exceptible

the scion is pleased

That's the second time I've seen that Mr. T. picture today...

Burn wrote:Dam, seriously. If you have a problem with Tramp go talk to a Mod about it. Don't resort to petty name calling, childish insults and rude remarks. THAT is a good sign of a troll and I highly doubt you're that.

I have. I'm getting pissed off with some smarmy jerkoff who likes to tell everyone what he thinks is right is what they should think is right correcting everyone all the time. It's irritating. Like, he's got his defnintion of canon wrong, I mean, none of the tech specs are canon, since they aren't part of any storyline.

And there's the fact he's obviously the confused individual I was speaking of in my first post, and then there's the fact he's arguing with everyone giving a different view AGAIN. I mean, the title of the topic is "Canon- Your Definition", not "Canon- Give the same view as Tramp or else."

Damolisher wrote:

Burn wrote:Dam, seriously. If you have a problem with Tramp go talk to a Mod about it. Don't resort to petty name calling, childish insults and rude remarks. THAT is a good sign of a troll and I highly doubt you're that.

I have. I'm getting pissed off with some smarmy jerkoff who likes to tell everyone what he thinks is right is what they should think is right correcting everyone all the time. It's irritating. Like, he's got his defnintion of canon wrong, I mean, none of the tech specs are canon, since they aren't part of any storyline.

And there's the fact he's obviously the confused individual I was speaking of in my first post, and then there's the fact he's arguing with everyone giving a different view AGAIN. I mean, the title of the topic is "Canon- Your Definition", not "Canon- Give the same view as Tramp or else."

Or else what?

Leonardo wrote:Just a further question: if it is all one canon, does that mean people can't speak of "a canon for the IDW universe", for example?

WTF? One Canon? Has he been smoking rocks again? There isn't one canon, there's several different canons. There's comic canon, there's TV canon, there's Japanese canon, there's english canon, etc. For Example: The events of Masterforce are canon in Japan, but are non-canon over here, since we have different characters with different origins for our takes on characters who appeared in Masterforce. So, as I said, it's canon in Japan, it's non-canon to us, since their take doesn't effect our continuities at all. We also don't have Minerva, much like they don't have Nightbeat. Over there, Ginrai is not Optimus Prime, he's a lifeless body who is powered by a trucker, whereas here, it's Powermaster Prime poerwed by Hi-Q, you see?

Or else you'll start getting the random bolding Tramp version of the Gettysburg adress with the Ultimate Guide or MTMTE or some other non-canon source.

Whoops, I shouldn't have stated that they're non-canon, because even though I'm not the only one here who's told him they're no longer canon, he still thinks they are. And because no-one knows more than Tramp, he's right.

Damolisher wrote:Or else you'll start getting the random bolding Tramp version of the Gettysburg adress with the Ultimate Guide or MTMTE or some other non-canon source.

Whoops, I shouldn't have stated that they're non-canon, because even though I'm not the only one here who's told him they're no longer canon, he still thinks they are. And because no-one knows more than Tramp, he's right.

Well some one has to be

Insurgent wrote:Yes. Universe is what they inhabit. Things that happen in the series happen in the universe.

Canon are the rules that govern that universe, the history of it.

People can hop universes into other series (thinking of Worlds Collide from Armarda here, though I haven't read it, I know what happens). When they hop, they enter a new universe, but the character that hops is still governed by the canon of their original universe.

If that makes sense.


Say Movie Prime entered Armarda.
G1 toon Galvatron entered Armarda at the same time.

Galvatron would still be the herald of Unicron from the movie, and he would still be completely insane.

Prime would still have fought Megatron at Mission City (who names a city that?) and would have lost the Allspark.

They would still have their own history, personality traits and skills intact based off where they came from, but they would be blips outside that canon that were now in.

And if Galvatron saw Armarda Unicron orbiting Cybertron, he would probably recognise him, but this Unicron would be a completely different one that didn't create Galvatron.

If we were voting, that would get my vote.

^Oh, that's not what Tramps' almighty non-canon guidebook says. So you're wrong there, Trunks, simply beacuse your'e going against Tramp's bible.

I say we take a cannon to the Ulitamate Guide and destroy it ultimatly and make it not canon.

No, Sto_Vo_Kor, it's not non-canon until Tramp says it is. Don't forget, Tramp knows everything.

Actually, Sto vo kor knows everything. He seems to have the answers to a lot of people's questions on here. I'm joining his house.

But Tramp's always right, and that's why he always argue with everyone who disagrees with him. He knows everything, and he's never wrong. Everyone in a topic will be telling him he's wrong, but they're wrong, because they're disagreeing with Tramp, and Tramp will agree with me about that. (/Sarcasm.)