IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Discuss anything about the Transformers cartoons and comics! You can discuss anything from G1 to Cybertron as well as the comics from Marvel, Dreamwave, IDW and more!

Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby AlphaBass » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:02 pm

Deadput wrote:
Randomhero wrote: Force awakens is a shining example of that. Play it safe and just remake A New Hope. That’s really why I didn’t like force awakens but that’s not what this is about. Just an example.
People bring this fact up all the time but you know...

what were they supposed to do?

After the whole Prequel drama people wanted a return to original roots Star Wars, they had to play it safe they couldn't risk the big return of Star Wars with a gamble.

It could of been executed slightly better but the Force Awakens was overall more good then bad.


Legit Q: how popular were Eps 1-3 when they came out? I understand not changing what works (2nd or 1dt high ed st grossing movie ever in the US, so they're not hurting too badly), but I feel like they could have dropped a steaming turd in the movie and debated its composition for 2 hours and it would still make money.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Deadput » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:31 pm

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
AlphaBass wrote:Legit Q: how popular were Eps 1-3 when they came out? I understand not changing what works (2nd or 1dt high ed st grossing movie ever in the US, so they're not hurting too badly), but I feel like they could have dropped a steaming turd in the movie and debated its composition for 2 hours and it would still make money.


From my understanding the prequel movies weren't liked that well when they came out. Honestly the Force Awakens had a far more positive reaction when that movie first came out.

Sure they made money but so did the sequel films, or just like the first 4 (and the 5'th to a small extent) live action Transformer films, making money isn't the only thing that the movie has to do.
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Deadput wrote:Actually I don't know my mother's name is Valerie so is Va'al actually my mother?

Yes. Now go to your room and don't play with yourself.


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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:30 am

Funny thing I just found out. I know the theory that Onyx/Shockwave’s giant eyeball ship the Nemesis is Unicron’s eyeball but it’s actually this:

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That’s the Nemesis from Beast Wars II

Maybe that’s been mentioned but I just found that out.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:36 am

Deadput wrote:
Randomhero wrote: Force awakens is a shining example of that. Play it safe and just remake A New Hope. That’s really why I didn’t like force awakens but that’s not what this is about. Just an example.
People bring this fact up all the time but you know...

what were they supposed to do?

After the whole Prequel drama people wanted a return to original roots Star Wars, they had to play it safe they couldn't risk the big return of Star Wars with a gamble.

It could of been executed slightly better but the Force Awakens was overall more good then bad.


I think the the idea of reviving Star Wars and the creative team behind it and bringing back the original cast would have been enough to have faith in the movie. Say what you want about the prequels but at least they didn’t copy a previous story. Look at all 8 now, all 1-6 all original stories, then 7 is a remake of 4 and then 8 is original so it’s an odd anomaly now a Star Wars movie that is a copy of a previous one. It sticks out.

AGAIN! Only brought it up as an example of playing it safe! Doesn’t need to be deviated in to a discussion. Lol
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:11 am

Motto: "Guilty or Innocent?
Always Guilty..."
Weapon: Particle Beam Cannon
Randomhero wrote:well retconning means just fixing stuff really.


Absolutely not. What Retcon means is a Writer that is either lacking in ability and/or too lazy to build on their own work, leeches off of someone else's.
It's the comic book equivalent of plagiarism.

Randomhero wrote: Megatron Origins had some issues that needed retconning. Between issues one and two Megatron went from freaking out he took a life to straight up killing combatants in the arenas.

How is that a plot hole? When it is clear as day, time passed between those events. Also, as many fail to appreciate, Transformers are not humans. They are sentient Alien Robots that live for millions of years. They wouldn't think like us, nor how we process and deal with information.


Randomhero wrote:MTMTE/Costa Ongoing showed flashbacks of Megatron before megatron origins who didnt believe in violence as an answer but things done to him started seeding anger in him. Things like Whirl beating him and trying to kill him in jail and Terminus telling him violence is necessary.


How this is coming across to me, is the old classic trope "But You Were There, and You" - When a character tells a story or has a dream of a completely unrelated event in which people he already knows fill in for the roles of the story.

He was member of an oppressed underclass that, being pushed too far, pushed back. That was plainly stated on the page within Origin. It was relateable, which is all it needed to be.

Randomhero wrote:another thing retconned was Milne putting female cybertronians around in Megatron Origins when there shouldn't have been thanks to Alex Milne just drawing background characters for no good reason. LL retconned that some cybertronains came home and changed their gender by choice. thats a retcon.


Not a very clever one either. Kind of also contradicts Spotlight: Arcee and even some of the Costa stuff that used her afterwards. How she was subconscious recognised by fellow Cybertronians as something "Other". It was an interesting concept that should have been explored, not swept under the rug, due to laziness.


Randomhero wrote:John has also been retconning the IDW-verse since he started RID. The problem with two different reflector groups, Prowls constant personality changes, some of the real wonky stuff from the -ation era.


The Reflector stuff was already worked out with Spotlight: Wheelie. Which was set at an indeterminate time and place IE it was pretty obvious that's where the Reflector trio met their end, just not "when" in relation to the ongoing narrative. Didn't need a retcon, just the fill in gap to be covered.

Prowl is Autobot Shockwave. That's all you ever need to bear in mind to explain his behaviour. the best single issue to sum up Prowl is his AHM Coda (the only good thing to come out of AHM).

The "wonky" -Ations stuff (whatever that is) is most likely because they didn't let Furman finish it.

Randomhero wrote:the current writers wanted to change.


That's what it all comes down to. There was nothing noble or altruistic about it. Which is fine, if your series is EG Batman that's been running since the 1930's. Incredibly hard to legitimately justify if your continuity is little over a decade old.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:37 am

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The new 52 want to say hi. How long did dc run with that before they flash pointed it and then converged it before doing it again a year later with Rebirth?

We're going to have to agree to disagree though on our feelings on retcons, for me it comes down to which I liked more, the old information or the new information. For example I like the stuff that was added to negation and I'm okay with the deeper exploration into his mind before he became genocidal. I liked him as well reflecting on it. I know you feel differently about it and that's fine, there comes a point were we accept that not always can we get someone else to look at things the way we do.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Deadput » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:22 am

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
Ugh, the constant whining of comic continuity continues.

No matter how much someone tries, as long as your long running comic series has so many minds making it together as well as making some things up as they go it's impossible for there to be no continuity issues at all.

It's like with the comic art it will never be consistent as long as multiple people are doing it.

It's part of why I've never been a big comic guy in general, I think for the reboot things should start small. (By Small I mean two ongoings at most and both have their own writers and artists that are working close together and have a big idea on what to do for the next few years)
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Deadput wrote:Actually I don't know my mother's name is Valerie so is Va'al actually my mother?

Yes. Now go to your room and don't play with yourself.


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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Deadput » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:34 am

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:Absolutely not. What Retcon means is a Writer that is either lacking in ability and/or too lazy to build on their own work, leeches off of someone else's.
It's the comic book equivalent of plagiarism.

Hmmmmmmmm

Retcon:
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency


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Va'al wrote:
Deadput wrote:Actually I don't know my mother's name is Valerie so is Va'al actually my mother?

Yes. Now go to your room and don't play with yourself.


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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:41 am

Motto: "Guilty or Innocent?
Always Guilty..."
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:roll: Having read comics for over two decades, I am well of what the "textbook definition" of Retcon is, that we can all enjoy from a quick google search, if unfamiliar.

In actual practice though, it's more akin to this:

plagiarism
the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Deadput » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:44 am

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
AllNewSuperRobot wrote::roll: Having read comics for over two decades, I am well of what the "textbook definition" of Retcon is, that we can all enjoy from a quick google search, if unfamiliar.

In actual practice though, it's more akin to this:

plagiarism
the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.


That's your own interpretation of the word which in this case is an over exaggeration of said word.

Because your the first person I've ever met that's interpreted the word in that way.
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Deadput wrote:Actually I don't know my mother's name is Valerie so is Va'al actually my mother?

Yes. Now go to your room and don't play with yourself.


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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 5:47 am

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Always Guilty..."
Weapon: Particle Beam Cannon
I've read comics for a long time, you see things like retcon a lot differently and in a far less positive light. In my view it's a tool of lazy writers not good enough to make the most of what they already have access to.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:11 pm

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I've read comics for a long time, you see things like retcon a lot differently and in a far less positive light. In my view it's a tool of lazy writers not good enough to make the most of what they already have access to.


Dude you’re just creating your own version of the definition of retcon and passing it as the status quo. That’s not what it means.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:16 pm

Motto: "Guilty or Innocent?
Always Guilty..."
Weapon: Particle Beam Cannon
Randomhero wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I've read comics for a long time, you see things like retcon a lot differently and in a far less positive light. In my view it's a tool of lazy writers not good enough to make the most of what they already have access to.


Dude you’re just creating your own version of the definition of retcon and passing it as the status quo. That’s not what it means.



No, mine is based on what I've read. What it "means" as to it's actual application is largely irrelevant. I've read many things by many different publishers over the years, so I know what I'm talking about.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Deadput » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:43 pm

Motto: "Let's kick the tires and light the fires!"
Weapon: Fusion Blaster Cannon
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:No, mine is based on what I've read.
That's not how words work.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:What it "means" as to it's actual application is largely irrelevant.
That's not how words work.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I've read many things by many different publishers over the years, so I know what I'm talking about.

...That doesn't really make you an expert, I've watched many movies over the years but that doesn't mean I'm suddenly some movie knowledge guy.
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Deadput wrote:Actually I don't know my mother's name is Valerie so is Va'al actually my mother?

Yes. Now go to your room and don't play with yourself.


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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby AllNewSuperRobot » Mon Apr 23, 2018 2:50 pm

Motto: "Guilty or Innocent?
Always Guilty..."
Weapon: Particle Beam Cannon
I never said I was an expert :???: . I know the practical examples of retcon I have seen from 20 years of comics, not from the dictionary definition a Google search gave me.

This conversation is both pointless and offtopic now, better to amend the latter.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby ScottyP » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:41 am

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There are good Retcons and bad/pointless Retcons. All Hail Megatron Coda issues = good Retcon, as it cleaned up an absolute mess of continuity that had been created by editorial not acknowleding McCarthy's reboot as such and insisting it was in-continuity from day one. When done for the sake of fixing very apparent mistakes, I'm ok with it.

To use Star Wars as an example, Midichlorians are a bad and lazy Retcon. It took away something from one of Star Wars' many appealing elements, which was seeing a little magic still be useful in a galaxy dominated by technology. (Which TF vs Visionaries is trying to show even now, it's just bad at it)
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Sunstar » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:36 am

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Weapon: Null-Ray Rifle
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:
Randomhero wrote:
AllNewSuperRobot wrote:I've read comics for a long time, you see things like retcon a lot differently and in a far less positive light. In my view it's a tool of lazy writers not good enough to make the most of what they already have access to.


Dude you’re just creating your own version of the definition of retcon and passing it as the status quo. That’s not what it means.



No, mine is based on what I've read. What it "means" as to it's actual application is largely irrelevant. I've read many things by many different publishers over the years, so I know what I'm talking about.


I've been attempting to avoid this discussion. But let me join in.

First of all a step to a dictionary:
ret·con
ˈretkän/
verb
past tense: retconned; past participle: retconned

revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
"I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get retconned"
(word was basically born in the 1980's DC Comics - Retroactive Continuity)

and:

pla·gia·rism
ˈplājəˌrizəm/
noun
noun: plagiarism; plural noun: plagiarisms

the practice of taking someone else's work or ideas and passing them off as one's own.
synonyms: copying, infringement of copyright, piracy, theft, stealing; informalcribbing
"accusations of plagiarism"


Now these two words are properly and clearly defined.

What you have, AllNewSuperRobot, is an opinion, and you are entitled to that, but I, and others may not share it.

Writing and coming up with ideas is an interesting thing. Ideas are shared amongst people, and an idea cannot necessarily be protected. I would have to ask who came up with the first dragon story? Should the concept of dragons be denied to other writers who have a wonderful idea of how to use them just because someone else has came up with this concept first?

Or for example, perhaps more related to the subject at hand, are all transformers or mecha writers edit: Plagiarising when they use the term or idea of a robot - when did that originate? I for one thought it was Isaac Asimov - he is pretty famous for it. Karel Čapek wrote a play named Rossum's Universal Robots which is where the term Robot was coined but the word robot is based off the “Church Slavonic word, robota for “servitude,” “forced labour” or “drudgery.” https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/ ... ord-robot/

So with the mindset of lazy writers not coming up with their own thing, and passing stuff created before as their own, are we plagiarising this man's idea? Reading further into the article one can imagine that Terminator is a plagiarised idea because Karel Čapek essentially came up with it first.

In these comics, if you go back even to book 10 of this series, you can see some hints to this future. All in all this plot twist is up there with some of the things that Night Shyamalan has written, most notably 6th sense. Where when you go back through it, you can see the hints, and the lead ups to the bombshell. If I recall they flash back to some of the key points after.

So what was done in Optimus Prime, is not lazy writing. This was absolutely brilliant writing, with a lot of thought and planning ahead. A lot of patience to go into its execution with years of hints. This is not something many writers can do – as a writer I am not this skilled. (I am hardly skilled but I do enjoy writing tf fanfic (OH noes plagiarism! /sarcasm) he took years of ideas and knitted them skill fully into this particular bombshell. He worked with what he had and really made it shine.

He shall arrive with a Titan; and adorned the Titan will be in metal black.
And he shall arrive and stand alone while not alone; and time will rust... and stars will scream.
And the symbol of the Uncreator shall be clear... and his gaze shall unravel the legacy of Primus.

This has been around for a long time, and essentially, its how this story will unrole

Now for a more famous retcon, let me turn your eyes toward lord of the rings and the hobbit. Originally, in the hobbit, the riddle what would have won Bilbo the ring was written in such a way that the ring was missing and the hobbit would be shown out instead. But since Lord of the rings, that ring had such a power, he had to go back and make a retcon change to the riddle, where it becomes apparent that Gollum has no intention on letting Bilbo get the ring. This fixes what would have been a huge plot-hole in lord of the rings. tolkien.cro.net/tolkien/changes.html (I strongly suggest you read that page it's very interesting.)


As stated some retcons are bad, some are brilliant.

Anyhow before I write a novel...
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby ZeroWolf » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:49 am

Motto: "My past no longer binds my future..."
Weapon: Battle Blades
*applause and cheers*
Thanks for that sunstar :-) that was an excellent post.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Big Grim » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:35 am

Weapon: Galaxial Rocket Launcher
Randomhero wrote:Nothing will ever be better than the following:

Shockwave
Galvatron
Cyclonus
Megatron
The wreckers
Stracream
Bumblebee
Rodimus
Magnus/minimus ambus
Human/cybertronian relations
Most importantly the reason for the war!

I guess things that could be improved on is probably Optimus. No fiction has managed to beat the original cartoon Optimus prime. He was heroic, charismatic, a true hero. While that may be generic it’s iconic in so many ways.


I agree with everything you said but these bits in particular. The IDW run has been excellent and the only comics I've followed for this length of time. I've given up on Marvel twice in this time period!

Randomhero wrote:I think it’s going to be hard to top most of IDW. They broke almost every rule and remade everything. Where do you go? Back to them crashing on earth and waking up in 1984? Again?


Gods, no! I sincerely hope not! IDW broke the mould and have been so, so much better for it!
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Galactic Prime » Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:13 pm

I'm not going to say anyone here is wrong, but English is fairly accurate in how it's words are defined. Retcon and Plagiarism have 2 completely different meanings.

If one believes the two mean the same thing, I have a word and a definition you can check out here:

mo·ron
ˈmôrˌän/Submit
nouninformal
noun: moron; plural noun: morons
a stupid person.
synonyms: fool, idiot, ass, blockhead, dunce, dolt, ignoramus, imbecile, cretin, dullard, simpleton, clod; informalnitwit, halfwit, dope, ninny, nincompoop, chump, dimwit, dingbat, dipstick, goober, coot, goon, dumbo, dummy, ditz, dumdum, fathead, numbskull, numbnuts, dunderhead, thickhead, airhead, butthead, flake, lamer, lamebrain, zombie, nerd, peabrain, birdbrain, scissorbill, jughead, mouth-breather, jerk, donkey, twit, goat, dork, twerp, hoser, schmuck, bozo, boob, turkey, schlep, chowderhead, dumbhead, goofball, goof, goofus, galoot, lummox, knuckle-dragger, klutz, putz, schlemiel, sap, meatball, dumb cluck, mook
"what moron left ice cream on the stove?"
antonyms: genius
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Va'al » Fri May 18, 2018 7:51 am

Motto: "Till All Are Pun!"
In other comics news today, with another delay ahead on the IDW scheduling of Transformers comics for next week, we have a new cover reveal for an upcoming issue of the ongoing series Optimus Prime, now at issue #19 and entering the final acts of the penultimate arc before the Unicron event takes place.

The cover is extremely high in spoiler content if you're waiting for the trades to read the story developments, and features four of the major characters currently part of the narrative knot, including Optimus Prime, Arcee and Starscream, all in Kei Zama and Josh Burcham's haunting artwork. Check it out below via Previews World!

"The Falling," Part 4. Onyx Prime's motivations are clear, and his scheme seems unstoppable. Heroes have fallen, and hope dwindles for the survivors. Cybertron's last chance of salvation is in the hands of... well, that would be telling, wouldn't it?


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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Agent 53 » Fri May 18, 2018 8:13 am

I still bet the mysterious hero that cybertron's salvation depends on is Bee, we know he's coming back and Shockwave's the one who 'Killed' him, so it'd be fitting, especially as his alligned counterpoint got to beat the big bad in vengeance for Killing him.
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Fri May 18, 2018 10:32 am

Agent 53 wrote:I still bet the mysterious hero that cybertron's salvation depends on is Bee, we know he's coming back and Shockwave's the one who 'Killed' him, so it'd be fitting, especially as his alligned counterpoint got to beat the big bad in vengeance for Killing him.



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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Tigertrack » Fri May 18, 2018 7:44 pm

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Cover looks amazing. Just never liked Shickwave's ears like that. I know they've been that way for awhile now... I think you're both right, and one of you is wrong. :)
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Re: IDW Optimus Prime Ongoing Discussion Thread

Postby Randomhero » Fri May 18, 2018 7:53 pm

Tigertrack wrote:Cover looks amazing. Just never liked Shickwave's ears like that. I know they've been that way for awhile now... I think you're both right, and one of you is wrong. :)



Well they’ve only been that way for oh just 13 years. Not too long. I actually really love his bunny ears. They stand out a good way for me
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