The Energon Pub

Alpha Trion was one of the Autobots built by the Quintissons allthough he was originally called A-3. Not really sure how he bacame Alpha Trion.

And as far as any universe goes there'd never been a Decepticon leader before Megatron. I'm sure there were other leaders before him, I mean look at how many leaders there were before Optimus. The offical answer though is no one. I just like to think there were others before Megatron.

craggy wrote:so basically Tramp, what you're doing, is once again, talking crap.

No, not at all. Nor do I "talk crap". Simon Furman wrote the Ultimate Guide from an "in universe" perspective, just as Brad Mick wrote the MtMtE books from an "in Universe" perspective. Lucas Licensing's various SW writers also tend to write their sourcebooks, particularly the Essential Guides from that same perspective. writing facts as "rumors" or "legends" because from that perspective, that is all the characters know them as. It is a very common device to use in writing.

Well, A-3 is almost the same as Alpha Trion (Tri meaning 3), so maybe he just changed his name to distance himself from the Quintessons.
And Tramp, even if that quote from the book (which I too have a copy) is meant as "in-universe", there's nothing else in that book that re-enforces it as meaning in-universe. So, your point is gone.

Tramp wrote:It is speaking "in Universe". Most Transformers don't know the identities of the Original 13. Their identities were, for the most part, lost to time. Thus, thew book isn't referring to real life rumor, it is referring to rumor among the Transformers themselves. The in universe "rumor" is actual fact from a story perspective. He is one of the Original 13, but as far as most Transformers know, it is just a rumor because they don't know much about their own origins and history. To them it's mostly legend.

If that was how it worked, then Earth legends Like Hercules and Thor must be real then too?

Your beloved Ultimate Guide states that the owner of Maccadam's is rumoured to be one of the 13, that does not make him an actual member of the 13. It's like Mr Joe Smith being rumoured to be a descendant of Julius Ceasar. Just because we lost the lineage of Ceasar, does not make anyone who claims to be his heir true.

ok, but an "in-universe rumour" does not equal an official accepted in-continuity fact.

Tramp wrote:

craggy wrote:so basically Tramp, what you're doing, is once again, talking crap.

No, not at all. Nor do I "talk crap". Simon Furman wrote the Ultimate Guide from an "in universe" perspective, just as Brad Mick wrote the MtMtE books from an "in Universe" perspective. Lucas Licensing's various SW writers also tend to write their sourcebooks, particularly the Essential Guides from that same perspective. writing facts as "rumors" or "legends" because from that perspective, that is all the characters know them as. It is a very common device to use in writing.

True, but usually there's something "out-universe" to confirm or deny it.

You both missed Furman's point though. The whole point was to hide facts about ancient TF history as legend. Look at the facts surrounding Maccadam. He is very ancient, very mysterious, and runs a bar which exists outside of time and space. Who but one of the Original 13 could have such a domain. or be so ancient.

Tramp wrote:You both missed Furman's point though. The whole point was to hide facts about ancient TF history as legend. Look at the facts surrounding Maccadam. He is very ancient, very mysterious, and runs a bar which exists outside of time and space. Who but one of the Original 13 could have such a domain. or be so ancient.

Ted Danson

craggy wrote:

Tramp wrote:You both missed Furman's point though. The whole point was to hide facts about ancient TF history as legend. Look at the facts surrounding Maccadam. He is very ancient, very mysterious, and runs a bar which exists outside of time and space. Who but one of the Original 13 could have such a domain. or be so ancient.

Ted Danson

You idiot, only someone of John Stamos can command that kind of power...
Ted Danson...pfft.

Also, Tramp, if you want to beat this into the ground, by all means do, but no matter how hard you argue it, until we see something CONCRETE, it's only a maybe for Maccadam to be one of the 13, no matter how much evidence points to him (or so-called evidence)

"but it says...it says in my precious precious infallible never-wrong even though it only concerns itself primarily with the DW continuity which has since been wiped from Hasbro's memory all-knowing Ultimate Guide. It says! It says it in the book!"

edit: I'm not sure I know who John Stamos is. He's not in the Ultimate Guide is he?

lol, the guy who played 'Uncle Jesse' from Full House. I just pulled someone of equal iconic 80s status...

And c'mon, you don't have to make fun of Tramp, lets keep this a fun and respectful thread

Cyber-Kun wrote:lol, the guy who played 'Uncle Jesse' from Full House. I just pulled someone of equal iconic 80s status...

And c'mon, you don't have to make fun of Tramp, lets keep this a fun and respectful thread

I'll respect him when he respects something other than his precious. However, I still don't know who Uncle Jesse is. I argue the 80s iconicness of someone who wasn't in a show that was repeated until probably a few years ago here in the UK. Don't know if we ever got Full House here to be honest.

Oh, well, I thought everyone's seen Full House. My bad.

DW hasn't been wiped from Hasbro's memory. Secondly, The Ultimate Guide's mention of Maccadam being one of the Original 13 is not just limited to that source. It originates from the Marvel comics, DW comics, Transformers Legendsanthology, and Fun Publications stories. In the Legends anthology short story, Prime Spark, Maccadam's is revealed to be a dimensional nexus. Once again, only one of the Original 13 could create and maintain such a place.

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:
What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

The Faction existed as far back as Liege Maximo, but it wasn't a true power with a name until Megatron. Thus, the original leader of the Decepticons—as a people—was the Leige Maximo. He laid the foundation, Megatron turned them into an army and started a revolt.

I just don't get your way of thinking.

How can Liege Maximo be the "Leader of the Decepticons" when it was Megatron that founded the faction?

Yes, Decepticons are direct descendants, I get that. But Liege Maximo did not lead the faction. He lead the people that would some day become the faction.

Megatron CREATED the Decepticon faction. Before him there was just a group of robots who liked to cause a bit of trouble. He took those people and turned them into a group and named that group the Decepticons. It doesn't matter who they descended from as until Megatron came along, the Decepticon group did not exist and therefore had no leader.

I see your way of thinking like this. George Washington was one of the Founders of America, by that statement you could say he was the original leader of the Chicago Cubs or the LA Lakers, because the people on those teams are descendants from those who first founded the country.

I will completely discredit what you've just said until I see some backup there.
And who says that only one of the 13 could do that? Some transformers have weird special abilites. Starscream has an indestructable spark, that's almost a god-like ability in itself.
Once agian, until something concrete is said, you've got nothing.

Tramp wrote:DW hasn't been wiped from Hasbro's memory. Secondly, The Ultimate Guide's mention of Maccadam being one of the Original 13 is not just limited to that source. It originates from the Marvel comics, DW comics, Transformers Legendsanthology, and Fun Publications stories. In the Legends anthology short story, Prime Spark, Maccadam's is revealed to be a dimensional nexus. Once again, only one of the Original 13 could create and maintain such a place.

meh X infinity. I give up, 'til next time I try and talk some sense into you. I don't know where it says that only one of the original 13 could create and maintain a dimensional nexus. Who says such a thing even needs maintained? It could be the will of Primus that keeps it functioning, and it could be completely independent from the supposed Original 13 Transformers. Dreamwave stuff has as much bearing on current or future TF continuities as the UK post-G1/pre-G2 stuff does, which is to say, very little, no matter how interesting it may be.
The Ultimate Guide, as I've repeatedly tried to explain to you, is now outdated and inaccurate, as current continuity follows the recent movie, the Cybertron and Classics toylines neither of which were out at its release and whatever IDW has come up with in their comics. The DW stuff is a might-have-been, a wasted opportunity and a continuity, which, with no money to be made off it any more, will be forgotten, just like the majority of the Marvel Comics run. Or have Hasbro announced an Xaaron or Impactor figure for the new Universe line? How about Circuit Breaker? Oh yeah, they won't cause they can't cause that continuity is dead!
Seriously, as I've said before, get over the DW stuff, it is good and all, but gone now, and the Ultimate Guide with it.

Craggy, And I have pointed out as well that your logic is flawed. If the DW material is outdated and invalid because it no longer has the license, then the original cartoon and Marvel comics are even moreso since they haven't had the license in over a decade. In other words, the material that was published while they had the license is still just as valid as any other licensed material. Giving up the license or going out of business does not invalidate the work already published nor any work based upon that material. The material remains just as valid. It's validity never goes away.

Tramp wrote:Craggy, And I have pointed out as well that your logic is flawed. If the DW material is outdated and invalid because it no longer has the license, then the original cartoon and Marvel comics are even moreso since they haven't had the license in over a decade. In other words, the material that was published while they had the license is still just as valid as any other licensed material. Giving up the license or going out of business does not invalidate the work already published nor any work based upon that material. The material remains just as valid. It's validity never goes away.

true perhaps, to some extent. it does not, however, maintain its definitive status in perpetuity. at present, IDW comics supersede DW comics. Likewise, just as the new IDW stuff cannot change the old stuff, the slightly less new DW stuff cannot change the old Marvel stuff. thus invalidating the Ultimate Guide. Not that it's not useful, but it is not...I reapeat It Is Not...a definitive guide to all things Transformers.

If I have a penny that was once legal tender but has since been deemed unacceptable by the royal mint, I can't go spend it in a shop. sure it has some collectors value, might even be interesting in a curiosity sense, but I can no longer get a bunch of them together and go buy myself a mini-milk ice-lolly. Same with DW stuff. Good, but no longer really valid. Unless of course every single one of your posts only concerns itself with the DW continuity, in which case you should probaly stick a disclaimer somewhere and refrain from entering conversations that involve all aspects of the TF franchise.

craggy wrote:

Tramp wrote:Craggy, And I have pointed out as well that your logic is flawed. If the DW material is outdated and invalid because it no longer has the license, then the original cartoon and Marvel comics are even moreso since they haven't had the license in over a decade. In other words, the material that was published while they had the license is still just as valid as any other licensed material. Giving up the license or going out of business does not invalidate the work already published nor any work based upon that material. The material remains just as valid. It's validity never goes away.

true perhaps, to some extent. it does not, however, maintain its definitive status in perpetuity. at present, IDW comics supersede DW comics. Likewise, just as the new IDW stuff cannot change the old stuff, the slightly less new DW stuff cannot change the old Marvel stuff. thus invalidating the Ultimate Guide. Not that it's not useful, but it is not...I reapeat It Is Not...a definitive guide to all things Transformers.

If I have a penny that was once legal tender but has since been deemed unacceptable by the royal mint, I can't go spend it in a shop. sure it has some collectors value, might even be interesting in a curiosity sense, but I can no longer get a bunch of them together and go buy myself a mini-milk ice-lolly. Same with DW stuff. Good, but no longer really valid. Unless of course every single one of your posts only concerns itself with the DW continuity, in which case you should probaly stick a disclaimer somewhere and refrain from entering conversations that involve all aspects of the TF franchise.

It is still valid. Secondly, it wasn't DW that made the retcons to fit Primus, the Original 13, and the other retcons to the older material. It was Hasbro themselves through their Universe story lines. The IDW material is its own continuity yet still part of the large TF multiverse. IT doesn't invalidate any previous works, it is its own reality. No new publisher invalidtates the works published before it. IDW has already reprinted what DW material they currently can, and have gone on record as saying they want to complete the stories left unfinished, but they can't because of the bankrupcy litigation involving DW. Therefore, yes, the Ultimate Guide is a completely valid and current source for informnation as the difinitive history of the Transformers, and the DW stories upon which is was primarily based are still the primary core G1 reality. The IDW Infiltration, reality,is its own reality; a reboot set in modern times. The DW stories is based upon the original 1984 G1 origin, the IDW story line is not. That is what makes the DW story line still the difinitive G1 history as given in the Ultimate Guide.

Also Craggy, If Transformers: the Ultimate Guide was not really the ultimate resource on everything Transformers, then the title of the book would be false advertising. It is the ultimate resource of everything Transformers. It goes through every continuity, every story line, every toy line. It is the ultimate guide.

He just really doesn't get it does he?

craggy wrote: He just really doesn't get it does he?

I get everything you say. I don't agree with any of it. I am telling you that your logic is flawed. Losing the license does not, in any way shape or form, invalidate the work published. Nor does it make anything based upon it invalid. Maccadam (if that is his real name) is one of the Original 13, as is Alpha Trion.

Tramp wrote:

craggy wrote: He just really doesn't get it does he?

I get everything you say. I don't agree with any of it. I am telling you that your logic is flawed. Losing the license does not, in any way shape or form, invalidate the work published. Nor does it make anything based upon it invalid. Maccadam (if that is his real name) is one of the Original 13, as is Alpha Trion.

oh. ok. sorry. now that you've explained yourself and given proof to the statements you've made, not to mention proved without a shadow of a doubt that those statements preclude all other TF continuity even those devised after the time-frame that these retcons where thought-up, I suppose I must believe you. yes sir, you've really shown me up to be a fool there. i'll never mess with you again.

Craggy, no one is calling you a fool. IDW did a reboot, with its own continuity that has nothing really to do with anything written previously, not even the old cartoons or comics. The DW mnaterial is based completely upon previously written material, and was written to create a single unified main continuity. IDWs new material does not invaldidate this because all IDW is doing is writing a new story set in an alternate universe that has no effect on previous material. They would like to also pick up where DW left off if the can after the DW bankriupcy litigation is completed.

Think about this, based upon your argument, all of the Bantam era Star Wars books published would be invalidated by the newer Del-Rey books because Bantam no longer has the license to publish Star Wars material. The truth is though, that the Basntam era books are still canon. They didn't lose their canon status simply because Del-Rey now has the license. Their validity remains. The same is true of all licensed material. Hasbro has not invalidated the DW material. Why should they? Think about it. IF they had truely invalidated it, why would they release an updated edition of the Ultimate Guide, and why would they produce Titanium figures based upon Dreamwave characters, namely War Within designs?

but Tramp, you yourself have said that the almighty Ultimate Guide can rewrite history and continuity when it comes to those stories which, unrelated to Dreamwave, were published prior to the DW-era. I don't see how or why it'd be any different the other way.