The Energon Pub

craggy wrote:but Tramp, you yourself have said that the almighty Ultimate Guide can rewrite history and continuity when it comes to those stories which, unrelated to Dreamwave, were published prior to the DW-era. I don't see how or why it'd be any different the other way.

The Ultimate Guide didn't rewrite them. The retcons involving the origins of the Transformers as a race, were already established long before the Ultimate Guide was written.. The four part Wreckers story by 3H published for Botcon, was where many of these retcons were intorduced as part of Hasbro's Universe story line. IT was Hasbro that retconned Primus, unicron and the Original 13 into all continuities. Beast Wars was meant to connect to the old G1 cartoon continuity. One of the things they did was retcon Primus into tyhat continuity by bringing him in by name as the creator of the Transformers, in the BW story line. This was the first retcon to the G1 cartoon continuity establishing Primus as the true creator of the Transformers, not the Quintessans. All of this was preestablished before DW got the license and before the Ultimate Guide was even thought of. DW simply took all of the various previous G1 incarnations, and fit them together, smoothing out the inconsistancies, and made a unified continuity. the Ultimate Guide also used all of this previous information and simply compiled it into a single sourcebook. It didn't rewrite TF history. All of the retcons had already been established by Hasbro themselves to unite all of TF canon into a single great multiverse watched over by Primus and his Original 13, threatened by Unicron. Retconning Primus and the Orignial 13 as the true origin of the Transformers was really the only real retcon that Hasbro made to the old cartoons and comics. It wasn't Dreamwave who did that. It was Hasbro.

Anywho, there is no proof that Maccadam (or the owner of Maccadam's Oil house, whatever.) is a member of the original 13, only the Ultimate Guide alludes to it as being a possibility. In no way is it fact.

The only 13 that are known for sure are: Prima, Vector Prime and The Fallen.

There are others that could possibly be members of the original 13, but there is nothing to prove that they are, as of yet:
- The Liege Maximo was alluded to being a member of the 13 by Furman post G2, but it is not cannon.
- The Last Autobot
- Maccadam
- Alpha Trion
- The Transformer that watched after Primus in the Marvel comics.
- The Collectors Club Energon Combiner figures have also been hinted at possibly being members of the original 13.

There are even more candidates for "possibly original 13", but none of them bar the 3 mentioned at the beginning are 100% certain to be of the Original number.

I believe that the Ultimate Guide somewhere says (and Tramp can back me up on this one if it does) that many of the 13 died upon their first battle with Unicron, so there may not be more than he 3 remaining Original 13 left.

Yes, many of the Original 13 did die in that "final" battle against Unicron. However, the three you mention are not the only confirmed members. The Ask Vector Prime also confirmed Alpha Trion as one of them, his bio in MtMtE and his position as Guardian of the Well of Allsparks as assigned by Primus himself, before the invasion by the Quintessans is proof of that, and Liege Maximo is a member as confirmed by Simon Furman. His short story Alignment confirmed it, but it was established in G2. He was created at the same time as Prima, the very first Prime, as his opposite number. This was stated in the last issue of the G2 comics. Thus, Liege Maximo is definately one of the Original 13. As he says in the final issue of G2, "Thus, when the first named Prime was created, so was The Liege Maximo. And from the Liege maximo came the Decepticons and all their susequent generations. Evil is...Infinite!" In an interview on TFormers.com, Simon Furman confirms he was able to conclude the Liege Maximo story in a UK exclusive prose book, Alignment, as stated, "SF: Back when Gen 2 was coming to an end, I just knew that there was this other level we hadn't seen, a threat far bigger (and with its roots in TF pre-history) than Jhiaxus. The name had been dropped in before, and even though we wouldn't get to tell the story, I wanted the LM in there. I recently got to conclude the story (as a prose piece with illustrations) in a UK convention exclusive book called Alignment." Those were Simon Furman's words as stated i this interview: http://www.tformers.com/article.php?sid=712&mode=flat. Maccadam is also confirmed in the short story Prime Spark as one of them as well. That is where the Ultimate Guide got the information that he is one of them. The Last Autobot is also one of them though he may actually be Vector Prime. The Last Autobot is also the very last Transformer Primus himself personally created, and contained a fragment of Primus' essense within him. Pimus personally created only 13 Transformers, All others are descended from those 13. That makes six confirmed members (seven if Vector Prime and the Last Autobot are indeed two separate individuals). All of the Original 13 were guardians of some aspect of Primus or reality. Vector Prime is guardian of Space and time, the Fallen was Guardian of entropy, Alpha Trion guardian of the Well of All Sparks and of Vector Sigma.

I did not think that the Simon Furman works post G2 were considered official cannon. thus everything written in them could not be considered correct...

Thats why I had listed them as possible members of the 13.

Thing is, most of the comic continuities have major differences.
There isnt exactly any fixed and 100% accurate source.

Burn wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:
What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

The Faction existed as far back as Liege Maximo, but it wasn't a true power with a name until Megatron. Thus, the original leader of the Decepticons—as a people—was the Leige Maximo. He laid the foundation, Megatron turned them into an army and started a revolt.

I just don't get your way of thinking.

How can Liege Maximo be the "Leader of the Decepticons" when it was Megatron that founded the faction?

Yes, Decepticons are direct descendants, I get that. But Liege Maximo did not lead the faction. He lead the people that would some day become the faction.

Megatron CREATED the Decepticon faction. Before him there was just a group of robots who liked to cause a bit of trouble. He took those people and turned them into a group and named that group the Decepticons. It doesn't matter who they descended from as until Megatron came along, the Decepticon group did not exist and therefore had no leader.

I see your way of thinking like this. George Washington was one of the Founders of America, by that statement you could say he was the original leader of the Chicago Cubs or the LA Lakers, because the people on those teams are descendants from those who first founded the country.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at. Guess I don't make alot of sense when I have some whiskey in me.

Also, Tramp, you say that short story Ascencion (or however the hell you spell it) confirms that the Leige Maximo is an original 13. I have that on my hard drive and I can say with a fact that no where does it mention him being one of the original 13. It says he is ancient, waiting millions upon millions of years for his plan, and it says Megatron is his offspring, but that is all.

On a side note, if the Quints took over Cybertron and enslaved them, then why does the Autobot Elder in FFoD4 tell Rodimus that the Quints made two machine conveyor belts.

Eventually they bewstowed upon their creations artificial intelligence, allowing them to think for themselves. But they became lazy and were melted down and recyled on the spot.

They had AI before the Quints came. So why would he say the Quints gave them the AI? Lets put all this obsession with combining everything into one multiverse aside and say

Different Continuity. Different Rules.

Leave all of this universe hopping Primus/Unicron/original 13 to the continuities they were written for. Each continuity to it's own. It saves alot of arguments, headaches, and those who haven't read the Ultimate Guide dont have to worry about what the hell is going on with all this new stuff.

I'm guessing this Ultimate Guide thingy has nothing about the movie-verse?

Guess it isn't the be all and end all of TF mythology then ...

Hence me asking what continuity the original poster was asking about. There is no definitive answer to almost any TF-related question. No matter how basic you think it is, there will be an exception.

Dude: So, what's the Transformers line about?
TF fan: Well, it's about these robots that turn into vehicles, weapons, animals, etc.
Dude:So what about the Action Masters?
TF fan: Er... ok, APART from the Action Masters, it's about these robots that-
Dude: Oh, and what were Animorphs?
TF fan: Oh look! A pig with a gun! He will surely kill us all!
*Dude looks round. TF fan runs away to hide in a cave and examine his preconceptions about Transformers*

So, if you want to know about any character, you need to specify which continuities version.

Burn wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:
What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

The Faction existed as far back as Liege Maximo, but it wasn't a true power with a name until Megatron. Thus, the original leader of the Decepticons—as a people—was the Leige Maximo. He laid the foundation, Megatron turned them into an army and started a revolt.

I just don't get your way of thinking.

How can Liege Maximo be the "Leader of the Decepticons" when it was Megatron that founded the faction?

Yes, Decepticons are direct descendants, I get that. But Liege Maximo did not lead the faction. He lead the people that would some day become the faction.

Megatron CREATED the Decepticon faction. Before him there was just a group of robots who liked to cause a bit of trouble. He took those people and turned them into a group and named that group the Decepticons. It doesn't matter who they descended from as until Megatron came along, the Decepticon group did not exist and therefore had no leader.

I see your way of thinking like this. George Washington was one of the Founders of America, by that statement you could say he was the original leader of the Chicago Cubs or the LA Lakers, because the people on those teams are descendants from those who first founded the country.

This point also depends on witch continuity your following.........In the G1 toon the Decepticons by name were around a long time before Megatron was born.Who was their leader was never explored.

i_amtrunks wrote:I did not think that the Simon Furman works post G2 were considered official cannon. thus everything written in them could not be considered correct...

Thats why I had listed them as possible members of the 13.

The quote I gave from Liege Maximo himself is from the G2 comic and he himself says he was created at the same time a Prima, the very first Prime. This alone makes him one of the Original 13.

Optrinix91 wrote:Thing is, most of the comic continuities have major differences.
There isnt exactly any fixed and 100% accurate source.

There are major differences in current story lines, not in orignins. Hasbro rectonned all of the origins of Cybertron to the Primus/Unicron Orignina 13 origin. They worked the Quintessan angle in as well, making them aliens who enslaved the early Cybertronians, not their true creators, thus reconsiling the two conflicting origin stories.

Insurgent wrote:Thank you. This is exactly what I was getting at. Guess I don't make alot of sense when I have some whiskey in me. Tongue

Also, Tramp, you say that short story Ascencion (or however the hell you spell it) confirms that the Leige Maximo is an original 13. I have that on my hard drive and I can say with a fact that no where does it mention him being one of the original 13. It says he is ancient, waiting millions upon millions of years for his plan, and it says Megatron is his offspring, but that is all.

Actually, the story is Alignment.

On a side note, if the Quints took over Cybertron and enslaved them, then why does the Autobot Elder in FFoD4 tell Rodimus that the Quints made two machine conveyor belts.

Eventually they bewstowed upon their creations artificial intelligence, allowing them to think for themselves. But they became lazy and were melted down and recyled on the spot.

They had AI before the Quints came. So why would he say the Quints gave them the AI? Lets put all this obsession with combining everything into one multiverse aside and say

Different Continuity. Different Rules.

Leave all of this universe hopping Primus/Unicron/original 13 to the continuities they were written for. Each continuity to it's own. It saves alot of arguments, headaches, and those who haven't read the Ultimate Guide dont have to worry about what the hell is going on with all this new stuff.

Why does he say that? Simple, when the Quintessans enslaved the early Transformers, the interfered with their development, experimented on them and engineered them to their own specifications, dividing them into to distinct lines for their own twisted purposes. It is because of the Quintessans that Transformers primarily use factory made protoforms to create new life. IT is the Quitnessans who set up the factories and two lines, after "genetiocally engineering" the early Transformers that way. The part about them "bestowing AI' upon the Transformers was retconned out by Hasbro.

Tramp wrote:He is very ancient, very mysterious, and runs a bar which exists outside of time and space. Who but one of the Original 13 could have such a domain. or be so ancient.

to carry in from 'the ultimate guide' it also says that Maccadams serves exceptionally fine oil, giving the impression that it doesnt exist outsid of time, it just appears to from a drunken state!

The point is that transformers from multiple realities can gather there at the same time. RID Prime could meet up with Armada Hotshot, G1 Grimlock, and Beastwars Dinobot for instance, and share a drink. IT's a dimensiuonal nexus. This too was mentioned in the Ultimate Guide.

Burn wrote:I'm guessing this Ultimate Guide thingy has nothing about the movie-verse?

Guess it isn't the be all and end all of TF mythology then ...

Oh, I'm sure somehow it probably does have something about the movie. Even if it is only a perceived something, which is actually impossible because the movie wasn't out yet and no details were publicly released at that point. Somehow it will still be the definitive guide to all TF storylines.

The New edition of the Ultimate Guide does mention the new movie, but doesn't go into any detail about it because the movie was not out yet.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Burn wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:
What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

The Faction existed as far back as Liege Maximo, but it wasn't a true power with a name until Megatron. Thus, the original leader of the Decepticons—as a people—was the Leige Maximo. He laid the foundation, Megatron turned them into an army and started a revolt.

I just don't get your way of thinking.

How can Liege Maximo be the "Leader of the Decepticons" when it was Megatron that founded the faction?

Yes, Decepticons are direct descendants, I get that. But Liege Maximo did not lead the faction. He lead the people that would some day become the faction.

Megatron CREATED the Decepticon faction. Before him there was just a group of robots who liked to cause a bit of trouble. He took those people and turned them into a group and named that group the Decepticons. It doesn't matter who they descended from as until Megatron came along, the Decepticon group did not exist and therefore had no leader.

I see your way of thinking like this. George Washington was one of the Founders of America, by that statement you could say he was the original leader of the Chicago Cubs or the LA Lakers, because the people on those teams are descendants from those who first founded the country.

This point also depends on witch continuity your following.........In the G1 toon the Decepticons by name were around a long time before Megatron was born.Who was their leader was never explored.

BAGH! I forgot about that. Well, guess my ramblings in this have been proven wrong.

Tramp wrote: Why does he say that? Simple, when the Quintessans enslaved the early Transformers, the interfered with their development, experimented on them and engineered them to their own specifications, dividing them into to distinct lines for their own twisted purposes. It is because of the Quintessans that Transformers primarily use factory made protoforms to create new life. IT is the Quitnessans who set up the factories and two lines, after "genetiocally engineering" the early Transformers that way. The part about them "bestowing AI' upon the Transformers was retconned out by Hasbro.

Retconned out. How convenient. Doesn't change the fact it was a fact stated by someone who was around at the time.

And Alignment. That's right. Knew it was something beginning with A.

Insurgent wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Burn wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:
What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

The Faction existed as far back as Liege Maximo, but it wasn't a true power with a name until Megatron. Thus, the original leader of the Decepticons—as a people—was the Leige Maximo. He laid the foundation, Megatron turned them into an army and started a revolt.

I just don't get your way of thinking.

How can Liege Maximo be the "Leader of the Decepticons" when it was Megatron that founded the faction?

Yes, Decepticons are direct descendants, I get that. But Liege Maximo did not lead the faction. He lead the people that would some day become the faction.

Megatron CREATED the Decepticon faction. Before him there was just a group of robots who liked to cause a bit of trouble. He took those people and turned them into a group and named that group the Decepticons. It doesn't matter who they descended from as until Megatron came along, the Decepticon group did not exist and therefore had no leader.

I see your way of thinking like this. George Washington was one of the Founders of America, by that statement you could say he was the original leader of the Chicago Cubs or the LA Lakers, because the people on those teams are descendants from those who first founded the country.

This point also depends on witch continuity your following.........In the G1 toon the Decepticons by name were around a long time before Megatron was born.Who was their leader was never explored.

BAGH! I forgot about that. Well, guess my ramblings in this have been proven wrong.

Sorry about that.

Sledge wrote:Hence me asking what continuity the original poster was asking about. There is no definitive answer to almost any TF-related question. No matter how basic you think it is, there will be an exception.

Dude: So, what's the Transformers line about?
TF fan: Well, it's about these robots that turn into vehicles, weapons, animals, etc.
Dude:So what about the Action Masters?
TF fan: Er... ok, APART from the Action Masters, it's about these robots that-
Dude: Oh, and what were Animorphs?
TF fan: Oh look! A pig with a gun! He will surely kill us all!
*Dude looks round. TF fan runs away to hide in a cave and examine his preconceptions about Transformers*

So, if you want to know about any character, you need to specify which continuities version.

Slegde is as wise as SlegdeHammer is funny, and that show was pretty funny.

I say we all gather around and watch him play russian roulette to decide which continuity he's referring to as there are multiple G1s.

can you say that Optimus is matrix sensitive in every continuity, or how he was made into a Prime? G1 toon was rebuild by the aerialbots with no talk of a matrix until the movie, G1 Marvel comic was too but had a program in his head for a matrix, G1 DW comic was Primed ala movie Rodimus and never faced Megatron before then, let alone get repaired by Alphatrion who was in no means revered as one of the originals.

While i can agree to some of the rationel to the toon G1, it still doesn't fit that nicely with the other G1 continuities.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sorry about that.

No worries. I'll just retcon it out like other parts of that ep have been and say Megs created the Decepticons anyway.

Insurgent wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sorry about that.

No worries. I'll just retcon it out like other parts of that ep have been and say Megs created the Decepticons anyway.

Just like the Ulitmate Guide

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Insurgent wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sorry about that.

No worries. I'll just retcon it out like other parts of that ep have been and say Megs created the Decepticons anyway.

Just like the Ulitmate Guide

Ha ha! Who needs the Ultimate Guide? Just retcon everything that doesn't match your perfect TF universe.

In any case, to answer the original question- in the cartoon, Alpha Trion mentions that he's a first generation product of Vector Sigma. How the BODY was made, however, I have no clue.

(And how the hell could the Quintessons enslave the Transformers when they were the ones who created the Transformers AS slaves in the first place? That's like saying you killed someone who was already dead at the time. This is why the Ultimate guide is a CRAP source of canon, because it doesn't hold up to ANYTHING the cartoon says.)

Hasbro, retconned it so that the Quintessans did not actually create the Transformers, just enslaved them. This was done well before the Ultimate Guide was out. It was done to connect the cartoon to Beast Wars, and as part of the whole multiversal Universe story line written by Hasbro and 3H for BotCon and for the Universe toy line. It established that Primus was the true creator of the Transformers regardless of reality, and that All modern Transformers descended from 13 Orginal Transformers personally created by Primus. This was a retcon by Hasbro themselves and changes the Quintesan creation origin established by the cartoon into Quintessan enslavement, not creation.

OK, well my question is this: Why are you the only one here who seems to have heard of this? I mean, you know, Cyber Bishop, who is one of the site admins obviously hasn't heard about it, it was never announced on the site. And here's the deal Tramp: You CHOSE to accept your crappy out of date Dreamwave continuity giude as fact. The rest of us don't. Don't force YOUR opinions onto others.

Damolisher wrote:OK, well my question is this: Why are you the only one here who seems to have heard of this? I mean, you know, Cyber Bishop, who is one of the site admins obviously hasn't heard about it, it was never announced on the site. And here's the deal Tramp: You CHOSE to accept your crappy out of date Dreamwave continuity giude as fact. The rest of us don't. Don't force YOUR opinions onto others.

Damolisher, it isn't Dreamwave that made the retcon. It was retconned when Beast Wars was merged into G1 cartoon continuity in its second season. 3H further explained the retcon in their Wreckers story line which was set in G1 cartoon/post BM continuity. Therefore, don't blame Dreamwave for Hasbro's retcon. Hasbro established Primus as creator of the Transformers for all continuities, not Dreamwave.

I didn't, troll, if you actually read my post. I said it follows Dreamwave's G1 continuity, which ISN'T the same as the cartoon. It applies Dreamwave origins. But then again, it doesn't matter with you, eh? regardless of who tells you you're wrong, Tramp, you're right, because you're Tramp, and if you guide says something different to an already established continuity, it doesn't matter. Regardless of how incorrect you are, and whoever tells you you are, and it doesn't matter how many peopel tell you your material doesn't count anymore, you are always right.