The Energon Pub

Where do humans get their souls from?

I know religions say their respective gods are responsible, but I mean if you don't believe in gods. I am interested in a more scientific explanation.

They say souls make us who we are. They are our personality, our behaviour etc.

But we are controlled by our brains. The firing of neurons there control our actions. So what is the soul? Where is it in the body? And why does that make us who we are, but our brains don't?

I have seen no evidence to suggest the soul exists.

I think that the term soul, is just the simple and religious word for the electricity n the brain!

for a given definition of a soul, i agree with smooth.

interesting thing, i was reading New scientist today, and they had a bit about freewill, this experiment was done around 1983, they scanned people brains as they made simply descions and found that the brain activity happened at a constant 200 milliseconds before the consciously making the descicion.

not something i particualrily like as it indicates that our brains do alot more thinking than our minds, and raises difficult moral issues

The fact that we have souls is why humans are incapable of creating human life from scratch and why transhumans will never become reality.

HoosierDaddy wrote:The fact that we have souls is why humans are incapable of creating human life from scratch and why transhumans will never become reality.

If the soul was a fact then I would like to think that they'd teach you about it in biology class.

Tammuz wrote:for a given definition of a soul, i agree with smooth.

interesting thing, i was reading New scientist today, and they had a bit about freewill, this experiment was done around 1983, they scanned people brains as they made simply descions and found that the brain activity happened at a constant 200 milliseconds before the consciously making the descicion.

not something i particualrily like as it indicates that our brains do alot more thinking than our minds, and raises difficult moral issues

You do know that our brain is our mind?

The mind is the result of the brain.

The soul is the result of the mind.


By that logic, it goes nowhere when you die.

Also by that logic, many animal species like dogs, cats, dolphins, and monkeys might have them.

This is the best explanation that can be given outside of religious conjecture.

That simply is Brilliant! I like the way that is worded.

I don't think the soul exists, but hey, I'm an Atheist.

To believe in the soul is to believe in a metaphysical being, and ghosts, and gods, and so on.

Well I don't believe in gods per say, but I do believe in ghosts. I have seen far too much to believe otherwise.

And I believe I have felt my soul cry out in loneliness more than once. Either that, or my body is screwed in ways I can't begin to imagine.

DZ, what would you define as the differences between the brain and the mind?

The brain is physical. The mind is imaginary.

DJDrew&ScoobyDoo wrote:The brain is physical. The mind is imaginary.

Or more correctly the mind is the essence of the imagination. It is this that gives meaning to the classic "I think therefore I am". In laymans terms we can only know that we exist because we know we think and everything else is simply a creation of our imagination because we have no proof of it's existance since we can't prove that it thinks. Applied in the singular it makes every one here a figment of your imagination. +

But when applied in the plural it takes on a whole new meaning. It becomes, instead of proof that you are but a figment of my imagination, proof that those who have the ability to think and imagine are sentient beings capable of creating and modifying the world within and without them.

Insurgent wrote:DZ, what would you define as the differences between the brain and the mind?

The brain is a mass of tissues and cells that we still barely understand.

Synapses fire and produce other synapses, which often result in physical motion of the body. The way in which these synapses fire is very, very, VERY complex, and can be influenced by the health of the body. They also can be influenced by extreme outside events, in which the synapses will oftentimes begin firing in a new pattern.

The mind is the illusion that results from all this. As time moves forward due to entropy and the tendency for order to become disorder, the mind as well percieves a change in the form of actions and reactions, events and counterevents. They appear to be happening one after the other. Synapse firing patterns at the time of these events are repeated, creating the illusion of memory.

The mind is all the result of firing patterns. The soul is what humanity has theorized as the result of the intelligence illusion due to synapse firing capacity.

Dark Zarak wrote:

Insurgent wrote:DZ, what would you define as the differences between the brain and the mind?

The brain is a mass of tissues and cells that we still barely understand.

Synapses fire and produce other synapses, which often result in physical motion of the body. The way in which these synapses fire is very, very, VERY complex, and can be influenced by the health of the body. They also can be influenced by extreme outside events, in which the synapses will oftentimes begin firing in a new pattern.

The mind is the illusion that results from all this. As time moves forward due to entropy and the tendency for order to become disorder, the mind as well percieves a change in the form of actions and reactions, events and counterevents. They appear to be happening one after the other. Synapse firing patterns at the time of these events are repeated, creating the illusion of memory.

The mind is all the result of firing patterns. The soul is what humanity has theorized as the result of the intelligence illusion due to synapse firing capacity.

Oh. I haven't heard them explained so clearly, yet scientificy.

So what makes us behave differently from each other is simply the way the synapse firing patterns differ in our brains.

Well now I know. Thanks you.

well, i hate to poke my nose here again, especially because i think the half of the board that is athiest has probably already written me off as a nutcase like this one athiest who pretended to be my friend for several years before saying that he thought that I was dangerously insane because of simply HAVING religious belief. (Whew!)

You want a real scientific explanation of how a soul could exist, eh? Well...currently making the rounds of quantum physics is the holographic model of the universe. It's surprisingly consistent even across dimensions, and provides something of an explanation for such phenomena.

VecPrime wrote:well, i hate to poke my nose here again, especially because i think the half of the board that is athiest has probably already written me off as a nutcase like this one athiest who pretended to be my friend for several years before saying that he thought that I was dangerously insane because of simply HAVING religious belief. (Whew!)

You want a real scientific explanation of how a soul could exist, eh? Well...currently making the rounds of quantum physics is the holographic model of the universe. It's surprisingly consistent even across dimensions, and provides something of an explanation for such phenomena.

Breathe and say it with me.

Woosah.

Doesn't that feel better?

Do you have a link for this holographic model? Does it say there are other me's running around other dimensions? Many would say that would be a bad thing.

the interesting thing with DZ's post is that theirs a about a constant 200millisecond gap, between the neurons firing and the conscious thought, says alot abot free will since the unconsious brain controls the controls the conscious mind.

to vector prime

Only four forces have been experimentally confirmed to exist (strong interaction, weak interaction, electromagnetism and gravitation). The only force which operates relevantly at the human scale is electromagnetism. This force is fully understood and described by Quantum Electrodynamics and Special Relativity. Any additional force acting upon humans or emanating from the mind would have long ago been detected in laboratories as an aberration of the predictable behaviour of electromagnetism - and this has never been detected. Much of scientific study relating to the soul has been involved in investigating the soul as a human belief or as concept that shapes cognition and understanding of the world, rather than as an entity in and of itself.

really vec prime, you need to explain your arguents rather than just say "This isn't true becuase of holographic paradigm" i might aswell come back with the "you are wrong becuase i'm god" arguent, it doesn't explain anything and doesn't move the debate further.

Tammuz wrote:

Only four forces have been experimentally confirmed to exist (strong interaction, weak interaction, electromagnetism and gravitation). The only force which operates relevantly at the human scale is electromagnetism. This force is fully understood and described by Quantum Electrodynamics and Special Relativity. Any additional force acting upon humans or emanating from the mind would have long ago been detected in laboratories as an aberration of the predictable behaviour of electromagnetism - and this has never been detected. Much of scientific study relating to the soul has been involved in investigating the soul as a human belief or as concept that shapes cognition and understanding of the world, rather than as an entity in and of itself.

Hey hey hey...

Maybe I'm mistaken, but didn't you take that from Brief History of Time? Come on, give the Master his due. Please.

nah i nicked it from wiki, though it does sound like him doesn't it...almost enough to make me go find it in ABHT and add the reference to wiki.

Tammuz wrote:nah i nicked it from wiki, though it does sound like him doesn't it...almost enough to make me go find it in ABHT and add the reference to wiki.

I think it's toward the end. I could have sworn it's him.

Insurgent wrote:So what makes us behave differently from each other is simply the way the synapse firing patterns differ in our brains.

Yep. The brain is so complicated, and outside events so different, that all throughout history not once has the synapse firing pattern ever repeated itself exactly.

It's pure random chance of synapse firing based on the outside influences of our lives, and past firing patterns, that dictate how we think.


And I'm just theorizing all this out of the blue. But it makes sense doesn't it?

Dark Zarak wrote:

Insurgent wrote:So what makes us behave differently from each other is simply the way the synapse firing patterns differ in our brains.

Yep. The brain is so complicated, and outside events so different, that all throughout history not once has the synapse firing pattern ever repeated itself exactly.

It's pure random chance of synapse firing based on the outside influences of our lives, and past firing patterns, that dictate how we think.


And I'm just theorizing all this out of the blue. But it makes sense doesn't it?

From a certain point of view

However from a wider point of view it would make more sence that one a brain reaches a certain point of development some subconcious controll is gained over the way and rate at which synapses fire otherwise would would all still be subject to our animalistic instincts and desires.

Jar Axel wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:

Insurgent wrote:So what makes us behave differently from each other is simply the way the synapse firing patterns differ in our brains.

Yep. The brain is so complicated, and outside events so different, that all throughout history not once has the synapse firing pattern ever repeated itself exactly.

It's pure random chance of synapse firing based on the outside influences of our lives, and past firing patterns, that dictate how we think.


And I'm just theorizing all this out of the blue. But it makes sense doesn't it?

From a certain point of view

However from a wider point of view it would make more sence that one a brain reaches a certain point of development some subconcious controll is gained over the way and rate at which synapses fire otherwise would would all still be subject to our animalistic instincts and desires.

are we not still? we are hungry we eat, we are tired we sleep, we are horny we...well you know.

surely any animal capable of being trained can also overcome it's instinct, just as a baby is taught not to scream wehn it wants food...

if a child was left feral, and somehow survived would it have the it still have the reasoning to ignore it's primal desires?

Tammuz wrote:

Jar Axel wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:

Insurgent wrote:So what makes us behave differently from each other is simply the way the synapse firing patterns differ in our brains.

Yep. The brain is so complicated, and outside events so different, that all throughout history not once has the synapse firing pattern ever repeated itself exactly.

It's pure random chance of synapse firing based on the outside influences of our lives, and past firing patterns, that dictate how we think.


And I'm just theorizing all this out of the blue. But it makes sense doesn't it?

From a certain point of view

However from a wider point of view it would make more sence that one a brain reaches a certain point of development some subconcious controll is gained over the way and rate at which synapses fire otherwise would would all still be subject to our animalistic instincts and desires.

are we not still? we are hungry we eat, we are tired we sleep, we are horny we...well you know.

surely any animal capable of being trained can also overcome it's instinct, just as a baby is taught not to scream wehn it wants food...

if a child was left feral, and somehow survived would it have the it still have the reasoning to ignore it's primal desires?

Do we not have the ability to deny these desires Tammuz? to make our own choices and not be controlled by these desires? I do what of you?

Show me that a child left feral would develop in the same way a human raised child would. The feral child would still make his own choices; just because we don't understand someone's or something's choices does not mean that they are not making them in opposition to their instincts and desires.

Jar Axel wrote:

Tammuz wrote:

Jar Axel wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:

Insurgent wrote:So what makes us behave differently from each other is simply the way the synapse firing patterns differ in our brains.

Yep. The brain is so complicated, and outside events so different, that all throughout history not once has the synapse firing pattern ever repeated itself exactly.

It's pure random chance of synapse firing based on the outside influences of our lives, and past firing patterns, that dictate how we think.


And I'm just theorizing all this out of the blue. But it makes sense doesn't it?

From a certain point of view

However from a wider point of view it would make more sence that one a brain reaches a certain point of development some subconcious controll is gained over the way and rate at which synapses fire otherwise would would all still be subject to our animalistic instincts and desires.

are we not still? we are hungry we eat, we are tired we sleep, we are horny we...well you know.

surely any animal capable of being trained can also overcome it's instinct, just as a baby is taught not to scream wehn it wants food...

if a child was left feral, and somehow survived would it have the it still have the reasoning to ignore it's primal desires?

Do we not have the ability to deny these desires Tammuz? to make our own choices and not be controlled by these desires? I do what of you?

Show me that a child left feral would develop in the same way a human raised child would. The feral child would still make his own choices; just because we don't understand someone's or something's choices does not mean that they are not making them in opposition to their instincts and desires.

but is that not part of how a child is brought up? do not spoiled brats lack the self control to reighn in there desires? if a child wants something, they take it or they scream, until they are taught self control, no?