The Energon Pub

Counterpunch wrote:

Sunstar wrote:Lets not go on the silly, bash the head in is okay idea but look at what is correct and incorrect in cultures.

Oh no, it's perfectly relevent and here's why...

Sunstar wrote:Some cultures belived that only the strong and fit should survive and some cultures coddle their weak.

You're correct and not only that, you win the door prize!

This is especially perfect because I know that you're female (rl).

Coddle the weak...

Perfect.

(Now, this could get offensive, but it's said out of pragmatism and not villany...)

You know what women are? I'll tell you what they aren't. They aren't as strong as men. They aren't as big as men and they aren't as aggressive as men.

In almost every third world culture, women are second to men in almost everything. They're property, they're abused, they're dealt with unfairly.

That's the culture. That's their version of 'right'. They loose out on all the potential contributions women provide because of how they treat them.

Take away the rule and structure of 'right and moral' and women go back to being treated almost as good as dirt. How would you live with the constant threat of violence, rape, and abuse hanging over you?

You can argue all you want that the Autobots are 'corrupt', but you know what? the Decepticons lord that threat of violence, rape, and abuse over every world they visit.

Women are perhaps not as strong as men, but we are inheritantly tougher then men. By that I mean in an ability to survive and deal with pain. Pain in our cycles and of labour. ALthough I am probably not going to experiance having kids.

As for the violence-rape aspect. I can tell you from personal close call that I do not live in that much fear of it inspite of that.

To clarify the situation. A man grabbed me by my wrists and tried to drag me under a bridge on top of a ravine. I broke free of him using a technique my stepfather had taught me and I ran. He persued. Keep in mind I am running along the top of a ravine. I did manage to lose him.

I may not have been strong as him, but I was educated with some simple defence and escape measures. I may be a woman, but I do not need to remain ignorant at how to defend myself or rely upon others to defend me.

If I live in fear of things I won't enjoy life.

Edit: I expect no help from people, even if I am injured with a broken leg. I learned that when I was 15.

General Magnus wrote:

Dynamax wrote:

General Magnus wrote:

Dynamax wrote:You know it is Roddy's fault peace cannot be attained. They all team up to beat Unicron (except when Galvatron, who initially WANTED to side with Hot Rod to beat him but was tortured into attacking him) and as soon as big old Rodimus Prime takes command what does he do?

"Decepticons, thanks for the help...now get the hell off of my planet."

Chaar was the real slow death Mr. Kemp. Did you see how they suffered before Cyclonus heralded Galvatron's return? They were so weak some couldn't fully transform..or maintain it. When Rodimus and Grimlock came there, Roddy felt bad over what he had done...well too little too late. The moment Grimlock blew their cover, all the Decepticons saw the man that left them to die and opened fire.

Sure Galvy came back nutso but fort he most part he had their interests in mind, and Cyc did his best to keep his madness in check...but that too was Roddy's fault.

In all the fiction you have seen the bots win, the cons suffer (Chaar, BW, the treatment they got in Energon after GALVATRON saved the universe by sacrificing himself, because they were religated to watchdogs and after a decade were still mocked and mistreated)...yeah it's true of the reverse but the difference is that the bots claim to be peace loving and see everyone as equals, when it's deep rooted that in the end it's all the same. At least Megatron is honest about his goals.

In energon Megatron was wiling to destroy Earth, and even before waking up all he wanted was to destroy the Autobots.

..while slowly being posessed by the not Futurama Robot Devil Unicron. And in the end at Energon he once again died to save the universe from Unicron once he regained himself after fighting off his control.

Both times Prime just stood there. All he did in the need was bitchslap the real hero.

And ask yourself, Demolishor was loyal and he was geing trakstalked by the bots. Even after Tidal Wave and Cyclonus jumped ship, Demolishor struggled to stay on the bots side and he got trashtalked and insulted some more. Did he deserve it? No. What made him jump ship? The bots abuse.

And note that as soon as he died Megatron saved his spark and remade him. One of his last acts of benevolence before Unicron drove him mad but it proved that he cared for his own, despite Demolishor's misgivings.

I mean I am not saying the cons are totally justified nor the bots totally corrupt. it just both sides are dirty in this war.

I mean even the Beast Wars had their own forms of corruption. *coughProtoformXandtheTripredicusCouncilcough* I just like how that show showed that the Maximals were not perfect either.

Granted, but then again Megatron was sane when he aimed the Hydra Cannon at Earth, and guess who took a shot for billions of humans? Optimus Prime.

The Maximals from BW were extremy corrupted. Heck in the aftermath of BM ( Universe comics)they arrested Optmius Primal.

Like I said, never said he wasn't willing to hurt and destroy. But did the others deserve to suffer from their leader's mistakes after he died? For a while maybe but if the Autobots were so good and pure, shouldn't they have forgiven the remaining forces and be amalgamated into Cybertronian society as equals? One would think so no?

And that part with the Maximals is why I like the BW universe so much, it's not black and white.

Counterpunch wrote:

Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?

Again, moral relativism.

Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?

The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.

And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.

Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.

I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.

Uncrazzimatic wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?

Again, moral relativism.

Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?

The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.

And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.

Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.

I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.

So...if I punch you and in response you kill my mother...that murder somehow becomes my fault?

It's nice never having to be responsible for your own actions...

Counterpunch wrote:

Uncrazzimatic wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?

Again, moral relativism.

Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?

The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.

And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.

Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.

I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.

So...if I punch you and in response you kill my mother...that murder somehow becomes my fault?

Everyone has a limit, everyone can only be pushed so far untill they snap, sometimes when they snap the reaction is greater than the original push. That's how I think the Decepticon's started.

Uncrazzimatic wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Uncrazzimatic wrote:

Counterpunch wrote:

Uncrazzimatic wrote:Those of you who are defending the Autobots can I ask you a question? Do you believe that people are born 'good' or 'evil', or do you believe that it's a persons experience in life that shapes them? If you believe that it is experience that matters then ask your self how did these 'evil' Decepticons come to be from the 'good' society of the Autobots? Do you think Megatron and the others just woke up one day and said "Being nice is boring, lets start a war and opress the natives other planets! WOOOH!"? No. Something made them turn down that path, something in the society of pre-war cybertron must have been rotten enough to cause them to revolt, something must have created these monsterous Decepticons. Monsters some of them may be, but wasn't it Autobot society that created them in the first place?

Again, moral relativism.

Because something bad or unfair happened to a group of individuals, now an entire galaxy has to suffer to right a wrong they weren't involved in?

The Decepticons aren't just waging Civil War, unchecked they will simply consume without pause.

And yes, that is a bad thing. That's kind of the definition of evil.

Yes, right and wrong exist. If you don't think so, next time someone bashes in your skull when you aren't looking, takes your wallet, and kills your girlfriend; you can be assured that it's OK, because in their mind, it was a perfectly fair thing to do.

I wasn't saying the Decepticons weren't wrong for attacking other worlds, I was saying that the Autobots were the ones that threw the snowball that would eventually roll down the hill of evil and turn in to the avalanche that is the Decepticon cause.

So...if I punch you and in response you kill my mother...that murder somehow becomes my fault?

Everyone has a limit, everyone can only be pushed so far untill they snap, sometimes when they snap the reaction is greater than the original push.

And thus they become the greater evil doers, creating injustice by responding back in increasingly more severe manners.

Most of what I want to say has already been stated quiet eloquently by Hi-Q, General Magnus, and CounterPunch. There are just a couple concerns that I want to address.

Grimlock86: There is a gargantuan difference between an uninhabited ruin, no matter how valuable it may be to archaeologists, and a planet full of people. Optimus sacrificed the ruins, knowing that there were no innocents in said ruins. There is no way in hell that an Autobot would sacrifice an entire planet just to win.

Burn: In regards to your response to General Magnus's post (Decepticons desire power and will destroy any who defy them), the one where you said "and you say that like it's a bad thing", yes it is a bad thing. A person can be as ambitious as he likes, but he has no right hurting others to obtain power.

Dynamax: I will agree with you that Rodimus's actions are "questionable" to say the least.

Hah! Decepticons trying to pull down the ideals of Autobots is about as effective as washing dishes with gravy instead of soap.

The only war atrocities covered up are the atrocities that are buried with each crumbling 'con's carcass.

Mr. Kemp wrote:Burn: In regards to your response to General Magnus's post (Decepticons desire power and will destroy any who defy them), the one where you said "and you say that like it's a bad thing", yes it is a bad thing. A person can be as ambitious as he likes, but he has no right hurting others to obtain power.

Which brings me back to my original point that the Autobots maintained their control of Cybertron through the oppression and treatment of Decepticons as second class citizens.

Mr. Kemp wrote:
Grimlock86: There is a gargantuan difference between an uninhabited ruin, no matter how valuable it may be to archaeologists, and a planet full of people. Optimus sacrificed the ruins, knowing that there were no innocents in said ruins. There is no way in hell that an Autobot would sacrifice an entire planet just to win.

Oh, yes... They will evacuate the planet first, then when only enemies are there, blow it up. The difference between autobots and decepticons are, the decepticons want to convert everything for their purpose, while autobots want to stop them "no matter the cost"

I kind of understand the autobots. The Deceptcons left uncheked could conquer galaxies. One planet is small price to pay for the safety of hundreds of worlds.

"The needs of the many supass the needs of the few."

um, that's the way things work.

It's either the needs of the many, the needs of the few, or the strongest survive.

Which makes the most sense to you?

The option that keeps innocent bystanders out of harm's way is the most desirable path.

I'm sure a lot of innocent german citizens died in order to eliminate the nazis....anybody think WW2 was a big mistake?

This is war. No matter what, somebody is going to be treated unfairly. Minimize the casualties and move on.

Yes, the allies indirectly caused the rise of the Nazis by basically humiliating Germany after WWI. But That didn't mean they're to blame for all the atrocities caused by Hitler.

I'm sure a lot of innocent german citizens died in order to eliminate the nazis....anybody think WW2 was a big mistake?

No, but many feel the firebombing of Dresden was.

Counterpunch wrote:
And thus they become the greater evil doers, creating injustice by responding back in increasingly more severe manners.

Ok I know when Ive been out debated. I admit defeat but I'll get you next time gadget, next time!

Burn: That still doesn't give the Decepticons the right to commit atrocities. Germany got humiliated in the Treaty of Versailles, but that didn't give Hilter the right to exterminate six million people. (Yes, I know someone brought up the Germany example, but it makes sense.)

You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.

Night Raid wrote:You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.

Blitzwing comes to mind...

General Magnus wrote:

Night Raid wrote:You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.

Blitzwing comes to mind...

Poor Blitzwing, he was fired because he stoped Galvatron from accidentally killing everynone including himself.

Night Raid wrote:You're right, but why blame ALL the Decepticons for the actions of just a few? I'm quite sure there are a great many Decepticons who are just fighting to save their own afts and killing Autobots so the Autobots won't kill them. As a matter of fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find a few who would just like the damn war to end.

See, this is the point i'm trying to make. People are generalising. Decepticons = evil. Stop and think why they're Decepticons. Not all of them are doing it because they see the Decepticon cause as the lesser of two evils.

Burn: Okay, I admit it, not all Decepticons are evil. Blitzwing was a pretty decent guy, at least in Five Faces of Darkness. However, most Decepticons are creeps. Not all, just most.

The high-ranking ones, sure... But what about the lower-ranking Decepticons who didn't get featured in the show?

Wow. I am always a bit perturbed by just the sheer number of Decepticon apologists that float around here...

Yes, it is likely that the Autobots are responsible for a number of injustices--some likely inherited from their role as the Senate's security force as seen in the Origins issue that's currently out there. But there are still a number of perspectives we have yet to see from that mini (as it seems it is one of two primary sources of evidence used here), so let's consider some other options.

First, unless "Senate" is being used purely as a facist tactic to ensure a faux-democracy, there have got to be those on Cybertron who oppose the unjust treatment of the working class; and though I wouldn't rule the "fake" democracy aspect out entirely, there must still exist some entity that would serve as some form of civic resistance. Similarly, who is to say that the Autobot Security Force we see Sentinel Prime leading in Origins #1 is the same group that would rise up as Autobots? Maybe someone--from within the organization, or perhaps a working class 'bot who joins in a time of crisis--rises to a position of leadership and tries to shift the organization around to rightly preserve the peace and freedoms of sentient beings; hell, for all we know, the current incarnation of the Autobots could be using the insignia as a bit of ironic justice. Even with the dismissive attitude Sentinel Prime has about the Senate, there may be a hint about a greater disillusionment with the Senate itself--perhaps acknowledging a strain of corruption which the Autobot Security Forces themselves are growing wary of.

The biggest point is: hell, we only have one issue out of four to examine, and though it sets-up a pretty huge case of unjust acts and classism, is it necessarily the cause of the Autobots who would later attempt to thwart Decepticon imperialism and conquest? We don't know yet, but I'm willing to wager that there's more going-on here than meets the eye.

As for the other issue here: is it possible that the Decepticon cause started out as a workers' rights movement against an unjust, Autobot-backed aristocracy? Very, I will admit. But the initial cause--if that, indeed, is what will transpire over the next three issues of Origins--gave way to a greater corruption of that idea, and the seeming identity inherent in such a notion vanished soon after: the Decepticons are not bound by the united identity of "the proletariat," but by the notion that "only the strong shall survive, so only the strong need survive." That is the same line of thinking that begat genocide after genocide in the history of our human history...and that is the same line of thinking that allows the Decepticons to lay waste and destroy innumerable worlds for their own self-serving ends.

If anything, I wouldn't think it'd be the Autobot "propoganda" that would be worthy of discussion. I'm more curious about how some who ally themselves with the Decepticons would be drawn to the movement; after all, a certain controversial study in the U.S. shortly after WWII revealed that a disturbingly high percentage of average citizens would follow orders from a person of authority, even if it meant another person's death...not to cheapen the study at all, but I wonder if it would translate to some of those "lower-ranking Decepticons" some have brought-up...

It's a possibility. Are YOU gonna say no to Megatron?

Night Raid wrote:It's a possibility. Are YOU gonna say no to Megatron?

Yes, but I'd know I was scrap in the first place, so it'd be a fruitless act.

But I mean, that does bring up another interesting point. What if it turns out that some of the Decepticons, however the movement got started, were initially in it for purely philosophical reasons and did not take "the strongest lead" to mean such bloody ends...and then finds out, after years of committment, that the purpose has shifted, and oh look, there's a dreadfully strong fellow right there with a dreadfully large cannon strapped to his arm who is asking you, quite seriously, where your loyalties lie.

Probably explains a percentage of the scientists and artisans the Decepticons managed to gather over the eons...