The Energon Pub

Gauntlet101010 wrote:If a seller refused to answer PMs when thousands of dollars are involved, I'm pretty sure they're be up in the seller's business.

I somewhat agree. But it's kind of like the highway patrol pulling you over on the block you live. It's kind of out of their jurisdiction in my honest opinion. I don’t think it should be the site mods job to become the Better Business Bureau. Who decides when enough is enough? Is a blind eye turned if the mods are in good standing with those people? If one of the mods got screwed does that put you on a s**tlist ?

Gauntlet101010 wrote:And if it was just an argument you'd be right.

In the back of my head I keep thinking...

If Fansproject decided to create a TFW2005 profile which would obviously get flooded with messages, would the mods have the balls to ban them ???

Or do they only have the balls to mess with the little guy ???

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Fansproject isn't the direct line for any of their products. You'd go to BBTS or some other retailer if you wanted to order one of their products.

You seem to think they shouldn't police their marketplace forums. That if things aren't DIRECTLY in posts, it's out of their hands. In theory someone could rip someone else off to the tune of thousands of dollars and, by your logic, still be able to sell on the forum without being banned. Because it's all through e-mail or PM. Fundamentally, I think that's a stupid idea.

And I suppose you think there's incriminating evidence on these private messages in Maiden Japan's statements ? Who the judge ? Some buck toothed nerd from TFW2005 that is upset because he busts his ass working in a coffee shop and has no patience ? All I'm saying is I smell haters at TFW2005....

I know the guy from Captured Prey has a TFW2005 profile. I'm sure his inbox gets flooded with more messages than he can possibly keep up with. (He says he has a day job too) Yet somehow he never gets banned and the whole TFW2005 staff loves him. I admit the whole Captured Prey staff is awesome. Ive met them too. Very cool and humble. But so is Maiden. And Im sure Frenzy/Rumble is too (Ive never met him) TFW2005 needs to stop messing with the little guys and give them the same respect they give the dealers and 3rd party companies.

X, if this is an issue of respect then it works both ways. Maiden Japan should have made conscious decisions to respect the site in which he does the majority of his business through.

Capture Prey, Frenzy/Rumble, and all the other 3rds you mentioned, to my knowledge, have sites of their own. Maiden Japan does not, he uses TFW2005 to sell his product. As such, he should, at the -very least-, acknowledge the sites mods attempts to make contact if only to keep the peace and put concerns to rest.

In essence, TFW2005's decision to ban Maiden Japan was not a wrong one. Hasty? Perhaps, . . . I haven't followed every little detail to the letter. However, if I owned a forum and one of the members whom sell products through my site refused to acknowledge my, or my mods (people whom I trust enough to enforce my policies), attempts at contact over a period of 4+ months time then the only real option I could see available would be to initiate a ban.

As a final note though, however, I do think TFW2005 should have used the ban as a warning to attain that contact and offered to restore his account if he acknowledged to, from that point on, respond to moderator PMs in a timely fashion.

Fact of the matter is . . . a lack of communication deteriorates relationships. Business, personal, platonic, family, etc. Its very likely this could all have been avoided if MJ would have simply taken 5-10 minutes to respond to a moderator if he wished to continue to do business through TFW2005. No opinion you post hereafter can counter that simple truth.

Rated X wrote:And I suppose you think there's incriminating evidence on these private messages in Maiden Japan's statements ? Who the judge ? Some buck toothed nerd from TFW2005 that is upset because he busts his ass working in a coffee shop and has no patience ? All I'm saying is I smell haters at TFW2005....

Name calling, X? Really?

At any rate, this wasn't a hasty decision. It's not like there wasn't contact for a week and BAM, banned. They tried to get in contact for months. If you look at the thread, the people talking about him were very patient, and gave him the benefit of the doubt (much like you, X). I don't find anything unreasonable in their handling of the situation. The final two paragraphs pretty well sum it up:

tfw Forum wrote:The patience you guys have exercised here is certainly commendable as well are your attitudes and posting behavior. Each of you have been very patient and kind above what should be expected. I certainly hope that the waiting pays off for each of you.

I'd still encourage each of you to stay on top of your orders using the off-site communication methods that has been posted in this thread. However, TFW2005.COM must part ways here, as we have exhausted our methods of attempting to communicate merely to just "check in" to ensure each of your orders are being filled. Without such confidence directly from the artist, an artist can not operate here in good standing.

Site owners get to set the rules of their forums. Mods get to mod. If the community doesn't like it, members move on. No one is forced to frequent the TFW forums.

I'm sorry, X, but I do not see any malice here. I understand wanting to be loyal to a guy I like. But everything about the situation seems reasonable from the mod's perspective.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:You obviously have no idea about the way Sidecutter behaves at TFW or the difference between operating your own online store and selling your wares through someone else's forum.

A full inbox is a full inbox right ? Policy is policy right ? Or are you suggesting Sidecutter be exempt from the "must reply to all e-mails" rule because he is somebody's friend at TFW ?

While you see a difference, I still see another small business owner. A small business owner who's inbox was probably overwhelmed with PM's about Hegemon restock cancellation, Maketoys Paladin's price drop, Quakewave's 2nd wave availability, and the Mastershooter Collectibles Targetmaster delays. There’s no way he could answer them all individually unless he hires someone to monitor his TFW and Seibertron profiles, Facebook, and personal e-mail. With that being said, try to justify his exemption from TFW policy without using the word favoritism...

And for the record, I will say Sidecutter has always responded to my e-mails promptly. But I always contact him through his website, not TFW. I got no problem with Sidecutter or his staff. Let that be known. They are good people. The discussion here is about favoritism by TFW2005 mods towards certain small businesses. I just want to make that clear for those who may read this...

How can you justify accusations of favoritism when MJ sells his products through -their- website and yet, won't do so much as reply to PMs from those who run the site itself?

NOS wrote:How can you justify accusations of favoritism when MJ sells his products through -their- website and yet, won't do so much as reply to PMs from those who run the site itself?

MJ doesn’t sell his products through TFW. MJ sells his products through PayPal. MJ shows pictures of his products on TFW for the fandom to see. Whatever route the fandom uses to contact him to do business is irrelevant. If we follow TFWs logic, then should MJ’s Facebook page and his g-mail be deleted as well ? Maybe someone from TFW should contact T-Mobile and get his cellphone disconnected because he isn’t picking up calls ? TFW could go to his homeowners association in California and try to get him evicted because MJ doesn’t answer his doorbell. I know I’m talking crazy extremes, but Im basing them all on the logic behind TFW’s policy.

On a separate note, hats off to Seibertron and his entire crew for not getting involved in personal business between site members. While I don’t agree with all of their decisions, this is one stance that makes Seibertron.com the superior website.

You're really arguing semantics, X? He advertised through TFW. Payment is handled through Paypal, sure. But, if I purchase something from Amazon using Paypal, can you really say that I am purchasing though Paypal and not Amazon? Sounds like a distinction without a purpose...

I'm not really sure where you are trying to go with this X. It appears that TFW has done anything but be malicious with this decision. I would have to say that any targeted slight of Maiden Japan is not supported by the facts.

And this is from someone who has never met MJ nor hung out at TFW. (I don't like their site design. I much prefer it here.) I don't have strong feelings one way or the other. I'm just looking at the facts.

You aren't basing anything on anyone's policies, you're grasping at straws in order to avoid being wrong and to win a lost argument.

Maiden Japan should have replied to the moderator's PMs. I seriously doubt Seibertron would have acted any differently if this situation occurred on these forums.

3-4 months is more than enough time to be considerate and respect the policies of the site to which he was a member of.

This isn't a case of favoritism in which Maiden Japan received the short end of the straw, this is a case of personal responsibility and accountability in which Maiden Japan fell short of and is now facing the consequences for.

NOS wrote:You aren't basing anything on anyone's policies, you're grasping at straws in order to avoid being wrong and to win a lost argument.

Maiden Japan should have replied to the moderator's PMs. I seriously doubt Seibertron would have acted any differently if this situation occurred on these forums.

3-4 months is more than enough time to be considerate and respect the policies of the site to which he was a member of.

This isn't a case of favoritism in which Maiden Japan received the short end of the straw, this is a case of personal responsibility and accountability in which Maiden Japan fell short of and is now facing the consequences for.

That’s where I disagree. To my knowledge this isn’t a policy on Seibertron.com. And In my opinion, I think implementing a policy like that here would be bad for business. Unlike TFW2005, I see everything from burger joints to Asian dating sites pop up on the advertising section of Seibertron.com. I believe Ryan is a smart business man because he runs an online business himself. I believe he knows better than to mess with other people’s business because he doesn’t want anybody messing with his. It’s called MUTUAL RESPECT. I don’t want to speak for Ryan, so I hope he can come on here and give his opinion on the TFW “must reply to all messages” policy and if it exists here.


Everybody keeps saying I don’t have facts. I think it’s safe to say it’s a fact that both MJ and Frenzy/Rumble have been banned from TFW because of a policy that doesn’t apply to everyone. I CANT prove Sidecutter is getting a free pass because he is friends with the TFW mods. But I honestly believe the amount of business related PM’s Sidecutter gets should be about the same as MJ or Frenzy/Rumble. I say this because of all the issues he has had to address with products the big retailers aren’t selling. And since pre-orders are charged up front at Captured Prey, I’m fairly confident he gets a huge amount of traffic in his inbox for status updates for these products. But maybe he is that good at replying back and adhering to TFW’s policy. I don’t know. I’ll probably ask him at Botcon because I’m curious about the politics behind these items BBTS/TFSource refuse to carry.


What irks me is everyone loves (and many of you own) MJ’s products, but not one of you wants to stand up for the guy, or at least try to imagine what his side of the story could be and if it’s legit. But if I even make one joke about Mark Whalberg, the whole TF fandom comes to his rescue like flies on s**t. So ironic are TF fans…

Yeah, you disagree... big surprise...

The circumstances being what they are between TFW2005 and MJ are too unique to say for certain what would transpire should a similar situation take place on Seibertron.com. However, if a member attempted to sell goods through this forum and refused to acknowledge contact between its moderators for several months, especially when large monetary transactions are involved, it would most likely provoke the exact same actions that occurred on TFW2005.

Why?

Rated X wrote:It’s called MUTUAL RESPECT.

On a side note..., it has been stated several times already by others here who disagree with you that they aren't bashing on Maiden Japan, that he isn't a bad guy, etc., etc. You're twisting their acknowledgements in that Maiden Japan could have and -should have- taken 5-10 minutes out of the 3-4 months in which he was unresponsive to acknowledge 1 PM from a moderator. That is not a harsh policy nor an unreasonable expectation for any member to accept and adhere by... it's a simple courtesy.

Rated X wrote:It’s called MUTUAL RESPECT.

NOS wrote:Yeah, you disagree... big surprise...

The circumstances being what they are between TFW2005 and MJ are too unique to say for certain what would transpire should a similar situation take place on Seibertron.com. However, if a member attempted to sell goods through this forum and refused to acknowledge contact between its moderators for several months, especially when large monetary transactions are involved, it would most likely provoke the exact same actions that occurred on TFW2005.

Why?

Rated X wrote:It’s called MUTUAL RESPECT.

On a side note..., it has been stated several times already by others here who disagree with you that they aren't bashing on Maiden Japan, that he isn't a bad guy, etc., etc. You're twisting their acknowledgements in that Maiden Japan could have and -should have- taken 5-10 minutes out of the 3-4 months in which he was unresponsive to acknowledge 1 PM from a moderator. That is not a harsh policy nor an unreasonable expectation for any member to accept and adhere by... it's a simple courtesy.

Rated X wrote:It’s called MUTUAL RESPECT.

Valid points. But what if the guy got locked up for something that has nothing to do with his business ? What if the guy lost a good paying job and is forced to work 2 part time jobs slowing down his business ? What if the guy had a death in the family and at this time he cant hold a paint brush steady enough to give us his best ? I agree he should have posted a status update on his sales thread. But thats NOT the reason TFW is banning him. They are banning him for not answering any of his PMs and letting his inbox overflow. I think thats a stupid rule and I dont care if nobody agrees with me on that. Ive already noted reasonable evidence that another small business owner MIGHT not be held to the same standards that MJ is being held to. And let me emphasize the word MIGHT because I am only guesstimating the amount of business PMs he gets based on the ongoing drama with some of the more "exclusive" products he offers. While you might not agree with me, I hope my response at least lets you understand my perspective.

I still don't understand your perspective, X. I'm willing to bet if there are extenuating circumstances (like being locked up) that the mods might end the ban. This is based on the reaction in the thread. They didn't take the action lightly. It was a last resort after months of trying to contact the guy.

There just isn't any evidence of this being malicious on TFW's part. There are no facts to back it up.

It's fine if you don't like the policy. Then don't be a member of that community. But the policy, and the actions of TFW, have nothing to do with favoritism. I just don't see a shred of evidence there.

Agamemnon wrote:I still don't understand your perspective, X. I'm willing to bet if there are extenuating circumstances (like being locked up) that the mods might end the ban. This is based on the reaction in the thread. They didn't take the action lightly. It was a last resort after months of trying to contact the guy.

There just isn't any evidence of this being malicious on TFW's part. There are no facts to back it up.

It's fine if you don't like the policy. Then don't be a member of that community. But the policy, and the actions of TFW, have nothing to do with favoritism. I just don't see a shred of evidence there.

Here are my key arguements:

• Should site mods get involved in personal disputes over private business transactions solely based upon the fact that the seller happens to be a member?


• Are certain small business owners exempt from the “must reply to all messages” policy if they are in good standing with the site mods?


• Why do some people here think there’s a difference between someone who sells their own creations and a “middle man” who resells other people’s products? Shouldn’t all small businesses be held to the same standards regardless of the origins of their products and who their seller is friends with?

Okay, let's take a look at them...

Rated X wrote:Here are my key arguements:

• Should site mods get involved in personal disputes over private business transactions solely based upon the fact that the seller happens to be a member?

If it is part of the rules for the forum? Then yes. This appears to be the case with MJ.

Rated X wrote:• Are certain small business owners exempt from the “must reply to all messages” policy if they are in good standing with the site mods?

How was this ever about "must reply to all messages"? (Emphasis mine.) It appears that he replied to no messages, particularly from mods.

Rated X wrote:• Why do some people here think there’s a difference between someone who sells their own creations and a “middle man” who resells other people’s products? Shouldn’t all small businesses be held to the same standards regardless of the origins of their products and who their seller is friends with?

There hasn't been any evidence of a double standard presented here. Do you have evidence of another seller/member of the TFW forum that behaved in the same way as MJ, but was not banned? Sidecutter is the only one mentioned by you. And it appears that he was on the TFW forum just today. WHatever your beef with him, it doesn't appear that he doesn't answer PMs.

I'm trying here, X, but it appears that you are just defending someone you have a lot of respect for, which is admirable. But I don't see any facts to back up your arguments...

Agamemnon wrote: Then yes. This appears to be the case with MJ.

You keep bringing up that ‘it’s the site rules”. I’m not disputing that fact. I’m disputing that the site rules are too intrusive to a members personal business. I feel this particular rule violates the whole concept of messages being “private”.

Agamemnon wrote: How was this ever about "must reply to all messages"? (Emphasis mine.) It appears that he replied to no messages, particularly from mods.

This ties in to my first point. I don’t believe the mods should be sending him warnings about anything other than abusive posts on public forums. That’s their job. If you feel it’s the mods job to dig into peoples personal issues and use them to make decisions, then lets just agree to disagree.

Agamemnon wrote: There hasn't been any evidence of a double standard presented here. Do you have evidence of another seller/member of the TFW forum that behaved in the same way as MJ, but was not banned? Sidecutter is the only one mentioned by you. And it appears that he was on the TFW forum just today. WHatever your beef with him, it doesn't appear that he doesn't answer PMs.

I got no beef with Sidecutter. I met all the Captured Prey guys at Botcon and they are all cool as hell. But I am using Sidecutter as an example because the amount of issues he has had this year with certain products suggests he MIGHT get a high volume of business related PM’s. I’m only guessing that his inbox gets just as full as MJ. Issues he has had to address include but are not limited to:

• Genesis costs and delays
• New wave of Hegemon being cancelled
• Poor communication with Toyworld leading to refunds
• 1 year delay on Mastershooter Collectibles targetmasters
• MakeToys Paladin price drop after people paid $99.00 up front
• Unpredictably large demand for Quakewave
• Standard defective parts complaints all 3rd party dealers have to put up with

That’s a shitload of business related PM’s I’m GUESSING constantly flood his mailbox. Maybe he is on top of it and manages to stay within TFW guidelines for replying to all messages. If he does, then hats off to him. But if TFW cuts him a break because he is like family…That’s kind of unfair to MJ and Frenzy/Rumble.

I wish I knew more small business owners on TFW so I wouldn’t have to single him out as my only example. But I don’t. Im a Seibertron guy, not a TFW guy. And once again, I have no beef with Sidecutter. I’m one of his clients.

Agamemnon wrote: I'm trying here, X, but it appears that you are just defending someone you have a lot of respect for, which is admirable. But I don't see any facts to back up your arguments...

When you’re dealing with things that can be considered political in nature, strong opinions are often the birthplace for facts to be born. Maybe I’m right about TFW2005. Maybe I’m wrong. But one thing for certain is fact…My desire to know the truth.

With that being said, I think we should close this debate before one of the mods here says:

“Get back on topic. Were discussing Maiden Japans’s products here, not if he is in good standing with TFW2005”. And if they do, they would be doing what I believe mods are supposed to be doing, unlike the mods from TFW.

I'm following this thread, had to reply to these...

Rated X wrote:• Should site mods get involved in personal disputes over private business transactions solely based upon the fact that the seller happens to be a member?

Here is a quote from the rules in the Creative Marketplace on TFW2005 in regards to TFW2005 getting involved with transactions.

The 2005 and Radicons Boards Administrators, Owners, and Moderators are not responsible for any deals or transactions between parties that arrange them here. Do so at your own risk, we will not intervene to settle any disputes. If there is a problem, do not bring it to the board. You can PM a Radicons Staff member if you have a LEGITIMATE gripe, and we will look into the matter. However we have no power to force anyone to return anything. We will only act as a go-between of last resort.

As far as anyone can see as actual fact, the moderator of the Creative section tried to get an update from MJ directly several times over a couple months. As far as we are aware, he only asked for an update and did not force him to refund or work faster. Just to hear back that he was around and be aware of his various customers attempt at communicating with him. I'm very sure a quick "I'm here, still working on orders." would of satisfied the request for the mod, and everyone who is still waiting for their paid orders.

Rated X wrote:• Are certain small business owners exempt from the “must reply to all messages” policy if they are in good standing with the site mods?

Can you quote this policy of "must reply to all messages"? As mentioned previously, the issue is due to messages from paid customers. I can't find anyone complaining in the TFW2005 thread that MJ didn't reply to their message, which was not about a transaction.

Since you brought up Sidecutter, is there anywhere you saw people complaining on TFW2005 that he was not replying to their PM's? If so, please give us a reference link. If not, why do you bring him up? When someone's PM box is full, they will get an email sent for every attempted PM, that exceeds their inbox. So if 5 people try to PM someone with a full inbox, the recipient will get 5 emails from TFW2005 automatically saying so, along with the member's name who tried to contact them. This has happened to me personally when I've had my inbox fill up.

Rated X wrote:• Why do some people here think there’s a difference between someone who sells their own creations and a “middle man” who resells other people’s products? Shouldn’t all small businesses be held to the same standards regardless of the origins of their products and who their seller is friends with?

If they should be put to the same standards, as you say, then bringing up Sidecutter makes MJ look very bad actually. As you mentioned, Sidecutter has a day job, and he works on Captured Prey stuff after hours. His communication is very good from what I see, between TFW2005, emails, and facebook. As someone who has met Orson as well, and communicates with frequently, I rate him in my top 3 retailers for great communication. I always get a response from him within 2-3 days, at the most. Some days, we might exchange 2 emails within an hour, based on our schedules. And I know he is very busy. There have been times where he didn't respond for a week, or a little more, due to attending a show as a dealer, or getting in some big shipment, like Quakewaves. During those times, due to the small delay in communication, I've seen him post on Facebook about the over all delay. And when he got back to my replies, he'd also let me know he had stuff come up. Which is all fair.


Since there have been claims but not much facts posted, here is something to consider, in regards to someone like myself running Renderform, MJ, customizers and garage kit makers on TFW2005. This is one of the rules where myself and MJ use to list our products, which predates our offerings.

5. You can only sell items in your possession.
You may only sell items for things in YOUR possession. Offering a pre-sale for an item before you have it is not allowed. Wait until you have a product made if you are selling a custom. Commissions can be requested in "Commission Requests". If your friend wants to sell here, he can sign up. Registration is FREE. Selling for banned members is extremely prohibited! You will automatically be banned for doing so.

As mentioned before, I have respect for MJ, and my post is just to help bring up facts that I do see. The bottom line issue behind this all is communication between people who have exchanged money to MJ for promised products. Nothing else. Anyone who gives any amount of money for goods promised within a certain time frame is always required to keep a line of communication open, no matter what. Rated X, you have stated you met MJ, like I have, and are not worried about the communication, as you have faith in MJ due to meeting him. But the other dozens of customers who have spent easily $100 or more, have not, and they can't take another person's word that MJ will come through. MJ must assure them himself, and no one else.


Edit:
Saw RatedX's reply right before this, which has answered most of the questions I raised. I agree with him on getting back on topic.

Venksta,

Thank you for clearing up a lot of stuff I didn’t have knowledge of. I’m a novice at TFW2005. I don’t even think I have reached 100 posts, lol. I appreciate you giving me insight on how both you and Sidecutter successfully make these small businesses work. I don’t know for a fact if TFW2005 has a rule that you must answer all PMs. I was basing that on this comment made by Lost Cybertronian located on page 1 of this thread:

“There was a post on his facebook from a tfw staffer (which looks to be gone now) that said he must reply to all PM's sent on the site, especially ones from staff like himself.”

That is my only evidence to believe this rule might exist. Then from there **** just hit the fan. Fortunately this 5 page long debate was contained to Seibertron members that I get along with and no ruckus was caused. I’m sure you’ve read some of the infamous arguments I’ve engaged in for pure entertainment. I’m not a bad guy, you know me. I’m a little different from the average TF fan, and when I come here I like the threads to be fun and enjoyable. Some people on here are super serious and I try my best to lighten them up. I cant win em all right ?

I saw your post right after I posted. We must have been posting at the same time. While I might not agree with TFW’s policies 100% I mean no disrespect to anyone I have named in this thread. I agree MJ could have done a little better at keeping people informed. But when my last order took about a year to complete, I knew what I was getting myself into when I dropped another $400 for the order Im still waiting on.

Now as we both agree, lets get back on topic. Id like to share some pictures…









That’s right, what you see here is MJ at his best. Im not a fan of those mass produced kits with pre-picked colors. I like to have them my way. This is what I am willing to wait a year for. And this is why I support Maiden Japan no matter what others think.