The Energon Pub

Like SirToys on Facebook · by **SirToys** » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:41 pm

joesaysso, everything you said was truth, thanks.

Kotoys has vastly improved their qulaity over the last year or so.

not really, they get lucky with what the factories send them sometimes though,

I have faith in mike and his band of Ko designers that they will pull off the Ko max with flawless execution.

"band"?, "designers"?, "flawless"?, where do you people get these ideas?

he sends a toy to a factory, or finds one that already has the mold, and tells them what colour he wants it in. pays them a few bucks per figure, anyone can do it.

Hell Peaugh reviews their items on the daily damn near and he always sings their praise

Peaugh gets the 'stolen from factory' toys mike buys at yidelu market in guangzhou, I wouldn't count on a balanced opinion.

learn more about kotoys here and here,

by **Soulgem** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:33 pm

joesaysso wrote:End rant.

I kinda agree with this. In fact, I'd be more excited with this if KO Toys did some crazy repaints, if they have the fort max molds. Then you suddenly have something new.
I'd love to get my hands on a KO fort max, just to have something to play with, or to give to my TF crazy nephew. But $300 is a lot. :???:

News Credits: 1 · by **MightyMagnus78** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:12 pm

joesaysso wrote:Ok, please bare with me and allow me a few minutes on my soap box.

Wow, I think for the first time ever, I'm confused by the knock-off toy excitement. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against knock-off toys, especially good quality ones that could actually accept the challenge of standing next to the legit versions and not look out of place. I also understand that people's collections are different and that people have different standards. I'm good with all of that. Knock-offs are good for some people and not for others. Fine.

But I am utterly confused at the price point of this knock-off and that fact that's its actually generating excitement. I would think that it would be pushing the boundaries of tolerance even for people who are pro knock-off.

$300 is alot of money for a fake anything. For that kind of money I would like to be getting something legit. OK, OK you can't get a legit Fort Max for $300. Well, fine but that still doesn't mean that $300 for a good fake is worth it. The only reason this KO is being priced at $300 is because the price of the original is so high that people rationalize to themselves that $300 for the same toy is worth it. And KOToys is taking advantage of that. Accept guess what, its not the same toy.

But here's two scenarios for you: #1 If Hasbro decides tomorrow to re-issue Fort Max, how much would they price it at? $300? More? Less? I'm betting less. That's less money for a LEGIT re-issue. Scenario #2 Brand X comic book company decides to re-issue Action Comics #1, the very first appearance of Superman. A legit copy of this book actually sold once for a MILLION bucks. Thats $1,000,000! Comic book company x does a really good job on the re-issue. They use the same kind of paper and ink used back in 1938 and give the book an "aged" look to make it more legit. At the end of the day, it still doesn't cost the company that much to make each book but since the fake is a really good fake, how much could the company get away with charging for the book? Well since the legit one sells for a million certainly a good knock-off could go for...say 20-30 grand. Does that seem unreasonable? Anybody want to pay $30,000 for a fake comic book?

For all of the KO TF haters out there, this thread is a classic example of why the KO market is so big and never going away. Because "collectors" fool themselves into thinking that paying a ridiculous price for a fake toy somehow replaces the much more expensive, legit original. Guess what, it doesn't. Your G1 collection will still be no more closer to completion by buying this KO. All you have is a ridiculously over priced stand-in of the original. "Here's my G1 collection with KO Fortress Maximus." Sound good?

On the KOToys website, you can get the classics conehead seeker mold for $10 bucks plus shipping. This is a mold still being actively distributed by Hasbro. I got real versions of Thrust and Dirge at walmart for $11 each. I thought knockoffs were supposed to be cheaper than the original because they are off lesser quality and NOT the original. Yet these are almost the same price. Full price for a fake!? Only an idiot would do this and not even think twice about it.

Make no mistake about it, its the "collectors" out there that have shaped the KO market. Not the moms and dads out there looking for cheap toys for their kids. The collectors: those who would be smart enough NOT to spend $300 on a fake Rolex but would throw a party at the opportunity to spend 300 bucks on a fake toy. The term ripoff was created for a reason. Only "collectors" would walk straight into a ripoff and be excited about it.

End rant.

I totally, 100% agree with everything you said! :APPLAUSE:

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:30 pm

So if someone`s selling soemthing that costs $1000 regularily for $300, you can`t see why people might be tempted to buy it, even if it`s a fake?

I haven't bought a single "replica" KO TF as a stand in except for Easter Devestator waaaaay back when I first started collecting. Because, to me, a few extra $$$ is worth spending to get the real deal. But $1000 is more than I'm willing to spend on Fort Max ... a fake for $300 sounds good to me.

It doesn't really count? Maybe not, but I just might feel good about it anyway.

News Credits: 226 · by **Burn** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:22 pm

They can spend the $300 on a fake if they like. Just don't try telling me you have a Fortress Maximus in your collection because I don't acknowledge fakes.

Personal belief, not an attack on people ...

News Credits: 8 · by **LiKwid** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:03 pm

Don't get your hopes up now guys. According to Mike( GenZhao) at Kotoys, Ft max is not going to happen this year...

http://www.kotoys.com/forum/index.php/topic,1646.0.html

by **victoryconvoy** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:53 pm

why even say any thing then :-?

News Credits: 16 · by **It Is Him** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:57 pm

Sounds like KOToys should find themselves a more reliable manufacturer. Oh well, I appreciate them being honest with their apology.

In the end, I've been waiting 23 years for a Fort Max. I can wait one more.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:06 pm

Too bad, I might've actually gotten this. Provided it was of good enbough quality.

Would've gotten depite having no damned room ...

by **Grepicon** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:45 am

No matter what anyone says about Fortress Maximus NOT being about money and profit, the facts do not lie.

Since the announcement of a possible Fake Fort Max being announced Feb 9, there has been nearly a 300% increase in listings on EBAY of "MAX" related accessories and shells.

Before argument is made that not all Transformer collectors are hoarding for a profit, I agree. And this is how some of out fellow plastic addicts finance their collections and futures bots.

I attempt to purchase authentic Fort Maxes whenever the opportunity arises, but once it exceeds $300, I am usually out of luck.

by **Court Jester** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:13 am

News Credits: 1 · by **MightyMagnus78** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:36 pm

I'd laugh if Has/Tak reissued him in about six months time, making the KO version virtually obsolete even before its released!

by **Grepicon** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 9:01 pm

MightyMagnus78 wrote:I'd laugh if Has/Tak reissued him in about six months time, making the KO version virtually obsolete even before its released!

That would be awesome, as long as it is below $300. But then maybe that would drop the prices on the repro, imagine the customs that could be made from the initial frame of Fort Max? Shattered Glass Fort Max, Maximus Prime and so on!

by **joesaysso** » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:53 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:So if someone`s selling soemthing that costs $1000 regularily for $300, you can`t see why people might be tempted to buy it, even if it`s a fake?

I haven't bought a single "replica" KO TF as a stand in except for Easter Devestator waaaaay back when I first started collecting. Because, to me, a few extra $$$ is worth spending to get the real deal. But $1000 is more than I'm willing to spend on Fort Max ... a fake for $300 sounds good to me.

It doesn't really count? Maybe not, but I just might feel good about it anyway.

How good would you feel about if it felt super cheap when you got it out of the box or broke when you transformed it? Hopefully in that case you'd feel like you got what you deserved since you knew full well that you were paying an outrageous price for a fake to begin with. I would bet probably in that scenario that you would be angry and feel ripped off in spite of the fact that you knew full well that you were paying an outrageous price for a fake. And that doesn't make much sense, does it?

Not to insinuate at all that I hope that this happens to you. I don't at all. I wish nothing but the best for my fellow collectors. I hope that everybody who drops this gigantic sum on a KO ends up truly satisfied by it.

The point of my rant was to demonstrate how collectors tend to lose their logic when they find something they really want. And when you throw in the fact that in this case, what they want is a knock-off, logic may as well not exist.

When that ROTF supreme class Devastator came out two holiday seasons ago, it was LESS than a hundred bucks. Logic suggests that if (ok, big if) Hasbro ever re-issued Fort Max, it would probably be somewhere around the same price range as the supreme class Devastator. I just can't wrap my head around why so many are ready and willing to just throw their money away, not on a crown jewel piece of a collection, but a fake that could potentially be an utter piece of garbage when you get it out of the box.

News Credits: 16 · by **It Is Him** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:05 am

MightyMagnus78 wrote:I'd laugh if Has/Tak reissued him in about six months time, making the KO version virtually obsolete even before its released!

It could easily happen.

by **Andrius** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:54 am

MightyMagnus78 wrote:I'd laugh if Has/Tak reissued him in about six months time, making the KO version virtually obsolete even before its released!

I was really expecting to see him as a Takara reissue this past year, in celebration of Transformers' 25th anniversary. Given the seeming end of the Encore line, I'm now skeptical that we'll see a reissue anytime soon. I hope to be proven wrong!

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:49 pm

joesaysso wrote:
Gauntlet101010 wrote:So if someone`s selling soemthing that costs $1000 regularily for $300, you can`t see why people might be tempted to buy it, even if it`s a fake?

I haven't bought a single "replica" KO TF as a stand in except for Easter Devestator waaaaay back when I first started collecting. Because, to me, a few extra $$$ is worth spending to get the real deal. But $1000 is more than I'm willing to spend on Fort Max ... a fake for $300 sounds good to me.

It doesn't really count? Maybe not, but I just might feel good about it anyway.

How good would you feel about if it felt super cheap when you got it out of the box or broke when you transformed it? Hopefully in that case you'd feel like you got what you deserved since you knew full well that you were paying an outrageous price for a fake to begin with. I would bet probably in that scenario that you would be angry and feel ripped off in spite of the fact that you knew full well that you were paying an outrageous price for a fake. And that doesn't make much sense, does it?

Not to insinuate at all that I hope that this happens to you. I don't at all. I wish nothing but the best for my fellow collectors. I hope that everybody who drops this gigantic sum on a KO ends up truly satisfied by it.

The point of my rant was to demonstrate how collectors tend to lose their logic when they find something they really want. And when you throw in the fact that in this case, what they want is a knock-off, logic may as well not exist.

When that ROTF supreme class Devastator came out two holiday seasons ago, it was LESS than a hundred bucks. Logic suggests that if (ok, big if) Hasbro ever re-issued Fort Max, it would probably be somewhere around the same price range as the supreme class Devastator. I just can't wrap my head around why so many are ready and willing to just throw their money away, not on a crown jewel piece of a collection, but a fake that could potentially be an utter piece of garbage when you get it out of the box.

You can't wrap your head around it because you refuse to see it from other people's point of view.

Your point about it being a crown jewel is valid. However, for many others, they will never, ever, spend that much on a TF. Be it because they have other obligations or simply can't justify that much for a toy. For these people Fort Max is a TF they will never, EVER, own. EVER. So, for these people, this is an acceptible compromise.

The logic makes absolute sense if you look at it from another's perspective.

As for my feelings about inferior quality: I would not be the first to get a KO Fort Max. I would wait for some other, braver, souls and hear what a few of them have to say. If the cost per suck ratio isn't so bad then, yes, I'd be happy with it accepting any flaws it may have. After all, I would have bought the thing fully aware of what I was getting.

And Hasbro will never release Fort Max. I hear it failed the drop test back in the RID days. Takara might one day, but never Hasbro.

News Credits: 1 · by **MightyMagnus78** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:56 pm

Grepicon wrote:
MightyMagnus78 wrote:I'd laugh if Has/Tak reissued him in about six months time, making the KO version virtually obsolete even before its released!

That would be awesome, as long as it is below $300. But then maybe that would drop the prices on the repro, imagine the customs that could be made from the initial frame of Fort Max? Shattered Glass Fort Max, Maximus Prime and so on!

I would actually be happy to pay £300 for an official, legitimate, Has/Tak Fort Max reissue.

News Credits: 3597 · by **Seibertron** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:57 pm

I am pleased to see the KO getting pushed back or canceled. I am hoping that rumors of a possible Takara Tomy / Hasbro reissue are true because that I would welcome with open arms. I hope Hasbro and Takara Tomy hit the KO market where it hurts.

News Credits: 3597 · by **Seibertron** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:58 pm

MightyMagnus78 wrote:I'd laugh if Has/Tak reissued him in about six months time, making the KO version virtually obsolete even before its released!

by **joesaysso** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:00 pm

Gauntlet101010 wrote:You can't wrap your head around it because you refuse to see it from other people's point of view.

Your point about it being a crown jewel is valid. However, for many others, they will never, ever, spend that much on a TF. Be it because they have other obligations or simply can't justify that much for a toy. For these people Fort Max is a TF they will never, EVER, own. EVER. So, for these people, this is an acceptible compromise.

The logic makes absolute sense if you look at it from another's perspective.

As for my feelings about inferior quality: I would not be the first to get a KO Fort Max. I would wait for some other, braver, souls and hear what a few of them have to say. If the cost per suck ratio isn't so bad then, yes, I'd be happy with it accepting any flaws it may have. After all, I would have bought the thing fully aware of what I was getting.

And Hasbro will never release Fort Max. I hear it failed the drop test back in the RID days. Takara might one day, but never Hasbro.

Frankly, I can wrap my head around everything but the utter acceptance of the price of this KO. That is all. I can perfectly understand someone wanting to spend 1,000 bucks on the crown jewel piece of a collection. I can understand someone with lesser means to aquire the crown jewel to be thrilled with the chance to buy a decent substitute. Hell, I'd happily buy it myself if it wasn't $300. I don't have to try to look at it from someone else's perspective. I consider myself to be a collector. I already see their perspective.

Again, my problem is not the fact that people want to buy KO's or the fact that people want to buy a Fort Max KO. My problem is that this particular case is an obvious and blatant case of price gouging at an extreme level and people are thrilled about it. This is where I am confused. People are happy about being ripped off. I have no intention of defending Hasbro or Tak/Tomy and I'm not argueing legits vs. KO's. I'm simply saying that this KO is rediculously over-priced, for the sole purpose of the distributor lining his pockets with gold and I'm confused and shocked about the few amount of people who see it and aren't aggravated about it. That is all.

I don't see an issue with people wanting to spend a lot of money on rare pieces of a collection. $300 for a legit TF, I don't have a problem with at all. $1000 on a legit Fort Max, good for those who can do it. I would be slightly jealous. But for people to be so thrilled at any obvious ploy by the distributor of this to make a ton of money at our expense only encourages more of the same behavior in the future.

I suppose the reaction that I expected was that there would be excitement from the masses in the fact that the product was being made but disappointment that the price point was a little inflated. It confused me and still does that so many were just thrilled with the price of this KO. Quite frankly, if the quality ends up good I'd buy it if was about half the price.

At the end of the day, I have no problem with the existence of KO's and I have no problem with people wanting to buy them. I do not own any myself currently however, I'm not opposed to it and I have been exploring it. I also don't mind paying for quality. I don't have to pay for a brand name. If the quality is good then a KO is just as good as the original provided you aren't trying to pass off the KO as an original to somebody else. But I also don't want to pay alot of money for crap either. Its a slippery slope with KO's. I think its a bad sign when a KO is starting at a very high price when it isn't even made yet and nobody can attest to its quality. Instead of being thrilled about it, I would be more nervous about getting burned and I would've thought that more people would've been too.

by **Grepicon** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 9:47 pm

If anyone can make a repro Ft Max for less than $300.00, make it.

I could go to India and a purchase a Banana Republic sweater for $3.00 without the tag. But I am not going to India anytime soon.

What would it realistically cost to make the actual body/frame of a Ft Max, I do not know. I do know that I have not seen anyone custom cast close to anything that large.

If the product ends up being crap, the first people to purchase it are going to be damn sure to let everyone know since they are out $300 and is going to be livid.

The market is out there, and hopefully some diabolical toy maker or HasTak has there ear to the wall and hears us debating.

News Credits: 1 · by **Gauntlet101010** » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:08 pm

People are happy with $300 because $300 is far less than $1000. And for grand Max $300 is a steal, KO or not. People are happy about the price because of relitivism.

Plus, let's compare other products, shall we? Predaking: $200. Delicate Warrior: $120. Aftermarket prices on Botcon toys: approx $80 - $300 for a single figure depending on who it is and when it was made. Sometimes more.

$300 is definately much more than regular retail price would be ... but seeing as Predaking costs $200 and Fort Max is larger, rarer, and has more parts to lose, it's really not as crazy overpriced as it might seem on the surface.

That's why people are happy. Because, despite the high price, it's still affordable. Of course, I still don't see many here willing to dive right in without a review beforehand.

Edit: I have to say I'm glad you can see why people wouldn't mind a stand-in ... but what's not to get about the price? $300 is very expencive for a toy let alone a KO, but $1,000+ is even more so. Simple math.

by **Court Jester** » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:04 am

Hey joe, your common sense is not only refreshing, but it also brings to light just how much power the community has by utilizing a modicum of restraint in regards to knee-jerk mouse-click spending. Well done.