The Energon Pub

but wow looks like the entire Masterpiece line is going to be KOed (factory rejects)! kind of feel bad for anyone that brought into the line from BBTS and want to sell off their Masterpiece collection for whatever reason.

Also these KOs makes me never want to buy MPs from US retailers. Its basically get it from Import stores or RK. It is what it is.. Just wish i didn't pay over 100 for sideswipe before all this KO business happened.

Instead of spending over $120 to get all Five KO MP Cassettes. you could just buy the Hasbro MP Soundwave that comes with all Five MP Cassettes.

If I buy any MP KO's,it'll be the MP Cars. before I pull the trigger,I'm waiting a few more months to see what Hasbro does here in the states.

HasTak must me supremely annoyed with factory rejects showing up as salable product. I wonder if they're going to put the clamp on whoever at the factories is running this KO operation.

Maybe if these KO's do well enough HasTak will just discontinue the MP line, then we all win........... Oh wait.

njb902 wrote:Maybe if these KO's do well enough HasTak will just discontinue the MP line, then we all win........... Oh wait.

Indeed. Ugh.

I cannot tell which is which. At all. That's worrisome.

I keep hearing the rumor that these are factory reject pieces cobbled together to make a whole, working, figure. If that's true, then do these really fall under the heading of KO? Last I checked, a KO was made using full reproductions of originals out of newly made and substandard parts. This, to me, seems like a thief taking busted pieces and making them into a saleable product.

If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

Autobot032 wrote:I cannot tell which is which. At all. That's worrisome.

I keep hearing the rumor that these are factory reject pieces cobbled together to make a whole, working, figure. If that's true, then do these really fall under the heading of KO? Last I checked, a KO was made using full reproductions of originals out of newly made and substandard parts. This, to me, seems like a thief taking busted pieces and making them into a saleable product.

If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

I think the main difference for Rumble & Frenzy is the visors - they appear to be more of a matte red than metallic red. Otherwise, I can't tell the different either.

I've been thinking about the definition of KO, too. True, these aren't KOs in the sense that they are reproductions, but they are KOs in the sense of being unofficial, unapproved product masquerading as legitimate product. I would say that these are even more in the spirit of KOs, and more troublesome, for the very reason that they are closer to the source.

Autobot032 wrote:I cannot tell which is which. At all. That's worrisome.

I keep hearing the rumor that these are factory reject pieces cobbled together to make a whole, working, figure. If that's true, then do these really fall under the heading of KO? Last I checked, a KO was made using full reproductions of originals out of newly made and substandard parts. This, to me, seems like a thief taking busted pieces and making them into a saleable product.

If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

I don't think it's the entire truth. I think a lot of them are made by the factory and sold by it. The factories are in China, and it's almost impossible to sue a Chinese company in China. I could also see the Chinese government telling HasTak if they make anything of it that they will make it difficult for them to do business in China, especially with Takara being a Japanese company.

Autobot032 wrote:If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

I'd consider them unlicensed for the sole reason they're produced and sold without Hasbro or TakaraTomy's permission.

Let me explain. Let's say Hasbro or TakaraTomy order this many figures from a certain factory, but the factory purposely produces a significant amount more, and only gives the amount ordered to Hasbro or TakaraTomy for selling. The overstock is then sold off privately at a low price for extra cash. Mind you it's just a theory. Point is, they're sold outside of licensing, and that should be the bottom line in making the distinction.

In case anyone claims breach of contract, it can be argued that the amount ordered is delivered, but it was never specified how many the factory is allowed to produce to begin with.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

I'd consider them unlicensed for the sole reason they're produced and sold without Hasbro or TakaraTomy's permission.

Let me explain. Let's say Hasbro or TakaraTomy order this many figures from a certain factory, but the factory purposely produces a significant amount more, and only gives the amount ordered to Hasbro or TakaraTomy for selling. The overstock is then sold off privately at a low price for extra cash. Mind you it's just a theory. Point is, they're sold outside of licensing, and that should be the bottom line in making the distinction.

In case anyone claims breach of contract, it can be argued that the amount ordered is delivered, but it was never specified how many the factory is allowed to produce to begin with.

Sounds reasonable. I'd say that's a solid theory. Thank you for the clarification.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

I'd consider them unlicensed for the sole reason they're produced and sold without Hasbro or TakaraTomy's permission.

Let me explain. Let's say Hasbro or TakaraTomy order this many figures from a certain factory, but the factory purposely produces a significant amount more, and only gives the amount ordered to Hasbro or TakaraTomy for selling. The overstock is then sold off privately at a low price for extra cash. Mind you it's just a theory. Point is, they're sold outside of licensing, and that should be the bottom line in making the distinction.

In case anyone claims breach of contract, it can be argued that the amount ordered is delivered, but it was never specified how many the factory is allowed to produce to begin with.

Which raises the question, are they then KO's?

Burn wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:If this is true and they're factory rejects...doesn't that fall into the gray area rather than black market?

I'd consider them unlicensed for the sole reason they're produced and sold without Hasbro or TakaraTomy's permission.

Let me explain. Let's say Hasbro or TakaraTomy order this many figures from a certain factory, but the factory purposely produces a significant amount more, and only gives the amount ordered to Hasbro or TakaraTomy for selling. The overstock is then sold off privately at a low price for extra cash. Mind you it's just a theory. Point is, they're sold outside of licensing, and that should be the bottom line in making the distinction.

In case anyone claims breach of contract, it can be argued that the amount ordered is delivered, but it was never specified how many the factory is allowed to produce to begin with.

Which raises the question, are they then KO's?

Not in the literal sense. Let's reconsider the distinction between the three groups we're dealing with:

3rd Party / Off-Brand
I've decided to lump these two in a single group because unlike the following two, they're all original molds, more often than not based on pre-existing concepts, like our Transformers.

Knock-Offs
Knock-Offs are based on pre-existing toys, but rather than full out copying everything, they change colors or even parts to make them look different, sometimes different enough to be legal (somewhat).

Bootlegs
Now those are true copies, from a perfect reproduction of the figure itself down to the packaging. Often lumped with Knock-Offs for convenience's sake, but there is a distinction. Knock-Offs are merely based on pre-existing toys with various changes, while bootlegs try to copy everything using reverse engineering or stolen molds, and be passed off as the real deal.

Technically, these would be bootlegs, but if my theory holds water, they actually belong in a different category, "(illegally) sold off overstock". The emergence of such figures is worth investigating, plus it's worth asking Hasbro about, on how the process actually goes in a nutshell. How are figures ordered, is there a check on how many are produced, and the like.

My KO Rumble & Buzzsaw arrived in the mail today. I missed the bus on Soundwave and his tapes, so the KO cassettes were a good option for me. (And a genuine 2nd production Soundwave is on its way.)

Maybe it's because I don't have the original MP-16 to compare to; but I don't think anyone can actually tell the difference between them, they are really well made.

One problem though: Rumble's guns don't attach very well to his back. Anyone else have this issue, whether KO or original? Is there a fix?

He looks great. And Buzzsaw is just spot on, the built-in weapons are so clever.

I've often wondered if it doesn't happen sometimes that the factories where the originals are made have any rogue workers who, for profit, will do additional smaller runs of figures in order to sell them on the black market and that's how sets like this come to be. It's just a theory, but it seems I'm not the only one thinking it.

As for your issue with Rumble's guns attaching to his back, I've had no trouble with him or Frenzy, but they are very tight and require a good deal of pressure to get them installed on his back.

I meant that they are very loose on his back. (Yes, I used the correct peg. :)

Should I try the colorless nail polish trick, does it hold?

Transformed my KO's once to make sure they were ok then put them back in the box, but didn't check the weapons.

My official version is very tight, but just checked the weapons on my KO and they are very loose when plugged into his back. Hand pegs are nice and tight though.

Cyberpath wrote:I meant that they are very loose on his back. (Yes, I used the correct peg.

Should I try the colorless nail polish trick, does it hold?

Yeah, clear nail polish should fix that right up.