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Sabrblade wrote:I wan't referring to either the lore or continuity. What the TFs in these films lack compared to other TF fiction is personality. Most the bots in the films are stock characters who lack development or character exploration, with most of those qualities being given to the human cast. Sam was the one growing and developing (for better or for worse) in the films, with the people he interacted with affecting him and vice versa. The bots, however, were given next to no reasons for us, the audience, to really care for them as characters (Ironhide's death only bugged me in that they killed off a guy I barely anything about and wanted to know more about, but wasn't going to get to know him because of the films not letting us get to know him before he got axed). They're meant to be flashy special effects and nothing more, which is not the case in just about every other piece of Transformers fiction ever created.Capt.Failure wrote:Their representation of what Transformers is all about is pretty spot on. There's not much to Transformers really. I'm a fan but I don't let my enjoyment of the franchise convince me there's some deeper meaning that isn't there. The convoluted mess of continuity that is the Transformers lore and setting does not qualify it as "deep" by any objective definition. It's more like a poorly maintained toybox, full of bits and pieces of stuff that can be picked and chosen to have fun with.
Ultimately Bay gets it right by trimming the accumulated fat, even if you don't agree. Whether he reaches deeper into the proverbial toybox with the next three films we have yet to see. Ultimately though the quantity of the Transformers lore does not equal quality. And the quality is rather poor.
Beast Machines, Animated, even RiD, Armada, and Cybertron had characters who got development. And there's also the comics, going back to Marvel all the way to today with IDW.Capt.Failure wrote:I fail to see how this is a complaint considering once in my entire memory did Transformers feature character development that was worthwhile (Beast Wars). I'm not saying they shouldn't be developed as characters, but character development is one of the weakest parts of Transformers as a franchise, if not the weakest. The term you should use for the bot's character development is "par the course."
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Beast Machines, Animated, even RiD, Armada, and Cybertron had characters who got development. And there's also the comics, going back to Marvel all the way to today with IDW.Capt.Failure wrote:I fail to see how this is a complaint considering once in my entire memory did Transformers feature character development that was worthwhile (Beast Wars). I'm not saying they shouldn't be developed as characters, but character development is one of the weakest parts of Transformers as a franchise, if not the weakest. The term you should use for the bot's character development is "par the course."
And, it's not just the development that matters, but the characterization. The actual, regular use of a character's personality, which happened in just about all forms of TF fiction, one of the least of which being these films.
Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.
Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???
In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.
Some key examples:
In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.
In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).
But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.
And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?
I don't get it.
RAcast wrote:Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.
Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???
In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.
Some key examples:
In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.
In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).
But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.
And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?
I don't get it.
At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.
Bradimus wrote:RAcast wrote:Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.
Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???
In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.
Some key examples:
In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.
In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).
But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.
And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?
I don't get it.
At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.
While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).
Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.
I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.
Why is that too much to ask?
Capt.Failure wrote:Bradimus wrote:RAcast wrote:Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.
Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???
In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.
Some key examples:
In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.
In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).
But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.
And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?
I don't get it.
At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.
While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).
Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.
I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.
Why is that too much to ask?
So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"
Bradimus wrote:Capt.Failure wrote:Bradimus wrote:RAcast wrote:Bradimus wrote:Re: Characterization.
Would it be too much to ask for meaningful interaction and growth of character between one main Autobot who can speak and one mane human counterpart???
In most series of Transformers, and every season of US G1, we have this key relationship.
Some key examples:
In G1 Bumblebee and Spike. Later his son Daniel and Hot Rod/Rodimus/Grimlock/Arcee.
In Energon the ever annoying Kicker and Ironhide (Roadblock in Japan).
But in the movies a Bumblebee who cannot speak and Sam, who speaks all the time.
And why can't the Autobots speak to the humans in alt mode?
I don't get it.
At least Movie Bumblebee has his radio gimmick, which is okay. Prime Bee is just a waste of space/ R2-D2 wannabe.
While agree in part, at least Raff translates for him and has conversations with him, so it works on some level. I guess we know who really didn't want Bumble to talk (Orci and Kurtzman).
Also, we have Jack and Arcee, and Meeko and Bulkhead. While Meeko can be seen as a cheerleader character, Jack and Arcee are the heart and soul relationship of TF Prime.
I want a Jack and Arcee relationship (no innuendo intended) as the heart and soul of the TF movies.
Why is that too much to ask?
So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"
It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.
Bradimus wrote:Capt.Failure wrote:So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"
It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.
Capt.Failure wrote:Bradimus wrote:
It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.
Right, so going by your comments you didn't even see the movie. So my answer still stands.
Come on. Bumblebee was just "there?" Sam talked with him more than his fellow humans. He was the #2 most developed Autobot behind Optimus. In fact your entire response to my post is basically the comparison of Movie Bee to Prime Bee, but in reverse. Prime Bee is a gag character. Movie Bee was an actual character. Don't try to warp facts here.
RAcast wrote:Bradimus wrote:Capt.Failure wrote:So Sam and Bumblebee don't count all of a sudden? Oh wait, let me guess: "It's not the same!"
It's not about being the same or different. It's about Bumblebee being there to be there. He's more a gag than a character. If he beeped like he does on Prime, and if Sam could understand him and carry our actual conversations that we could barely follow, I could live with that. But that's not what we have been given. So my question stands.
While he may "talk," and I use that term very loosely about Prime Bee, I still feel like Movie Bee is a more emotive character. Not by a ton, mind you, but it's there.
Prime Bee is no less of a "gag" than Movie Bee is, but Prime Bee should at least have the chance for character development, being a main character in a running series. It ain't gonna happen. Movie Bee has an excuse for being flat.
Further, Movie Bee can at least directly communicate without the need of translation, and the clips that they've used for him have gone over pretty well. Heck, I'd go so far as to say his face is a great deal more expressive than Prime Bee's is, they had to make it that way since he can only communicate through sampling things otherwise. Because Prime Bee CAN "speak," they didn't have to go through the trouble. Anybody see where I'm coming from?
MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore. Enjoy your flashy garbage, but thats all it is. If you want to know what Transformers are in their evolved from, read the comics, as suggested, from Marvel to IDW.
For the new fans of Transformers due to the movies, hopefully the concept allows them to dig deeper into the good stuff. If not, who cares. There will still be more Beiber fans to irritate me.
Give me more Generations toys and **** off
Nah, Rated X and I are never of the same mindset.RAcast wrote:Sorry, Rated X, is that you?
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore. Enjoy your flashy garbage, but thats all it is. If you want to know what Transformers are in their evolved from, read the comics, as suggested, from Marvel to IDW.
For the new fans of Transformers due to the movies, hopefully the concept allows them to dig deeper into the good stuff. If not, who cares. There will still be more Beiber fans to irritate me.
Give me more Generations toys and **** off
Yet, my first post in this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore.
MINDVVIPE wrote:Give me more Generations toys and **** off
Sabrblade wrote:Yet, my first posti n this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
Capt.Failure wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Yet, my first posti n this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
I'm aware. However, further remarks about the films including the belief that new fans should immediately disregard or be forced to change their opinions are ill informed and uncalled for. If new fans love the films, then so be it. Harboring the belief they need to be "steered the right way" is wrong.
I didn't say that (if it was implied, though, that was never my intention). I meant that new fans could use the films as a jumping on point for them to get into the brand and potentially seek out more beyond the films, not that they must immediately jump ship to drown out the films with other TF works.Capt.Failure wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Yet, my first post in this thread spoke in defense of the movies for their success.Capt.Failure wrote:It's nice to see the rabid, drooling fanboys get mad because other people enjoy something they hate. Your tears fuel me.
I'm aware. However, further remarks about the films including the belief that new fans should immediately disregard or be forced to change their opinions are ill informed and uncalled for. If new fans love the films, then so be it. Harboring the belief they need to be "steered the right way" is wrong.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
That's kind of a bold statement to make since, well, what exactly is the definition of "a real Transformers experience" (if there even is one)?Xephon0930 wrote:But fans can't get a real Transformers experience with the films as they are now.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Autobot032 wrote:MINDVVIPE wrote:Listen to Sabrblade. Only one making any solid points here regarding the movies compared to all other TF lore.
Incorrect. And knock that off. I've already said once, show respect. You absolutely choose to ignore it.MINDVVIPE wrote:Give me more Generations toys and **** off
You've crossed a line, here.
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