My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

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My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Sat Jan 19, 2013 11:40 pm

Hi, this is my new fanon theory on the famous G1 movie problem of Cyclonus, his Armada, Scourge, the Sweeps and the Insecticons etc.

*EDIT*
I have totally disowned my previous explaination for this. It was way too complicated and countained errors (the "blue generic" seen falling from Astrotrain is obviously just a miscoloured Bombshell, when watched in slow motion).

My new explanation is much simpler -
Each of the old characters seen falling from Astrotrain, become the following characters inside Unicron -


Megatron ----> Galvatron

Thundercracker ----> Scourge

Skywarp ----> Armada ----> Sweep 3 ----> Skywarp (Later changed back into Skywarp somehow in 3H Wreckers comic.)

Bombshell ----> Cyclonus

Shrapnel ----> Sweep 1

Kickback ----> Sweep 2


Thundercracker, Skywarp and the Insecticons are seen alive but damaged, aboard Astrotrain before being thrown out. -
Image


Basically I think that in the following brief scene, where we see Cyclonus, his Armada, Scourge and FOUR Sweeps, it is due to the fact that two of the newly created Sweeps still have their Insecticon powers of cloning. The Kickback and Shrapnel Sweeps have each cloned themselves once as a display of their powers. This gives 5 Scourge clones all together (including Scourge) (1 Scourge + 2 Sweeps + 2 Clones = 5). -

Image


I am in the camp that thinks Skywarp became the Armada robot, while Bombshell became Cyclonus. I think that shortly after the initial creation of the new soldiers for Galvatron, Unicron changed his mind about the command setup. At first he wanted a 1 x Galvatron, 2 x Cyclonus types, 3 x Scourge types setup, but he canged this to wanting only 1 Cyclonus type as the second in command to Galvatron. Therefore soon after his transformation into the Cyclonus looking Armada bot, Skywarp was changed again, off camera, into the 3rd Sweep which is then seen leaving Unicron along with the rest of them. The previous 2 Sweep clones which were briefly seen did not leave Unicron for the new ship. We know from the Insecticons in previous episodes, that clones only have power when commanded by the Insecticon which created them. I think these 2 clones were not instantly required so were dumped soon after creation, as a display of the Sweeps cloning powers for Unicron to take note of.
So we see Galvatron, Cyclonus, Scourge and 3 Sweeps leaving Unicron for the new Decepticon ship.

Because Cyclonus was previously Bombshell, he also retains the ability to create clones of himself, which act like puppets of his will.
At least 4 Cyclonus clones (plus actual Cyclonus) are seen in Five faces of Darkness part 5. -

Image


So Cyclonus and 2 of the Sweeps can clone themselves, which explains the random multiplication of Sweeps and, more rarely, Cyclonus clones that we see in Series 3 of Transformers.


As noted above, at some point, through unknown means, the 3rd Sweep was restored back to his Skywarp self in the 3H comic. Cyclonus and the restored Skywarp are shown together. -

Image


At Starscream's coronation, other Seekers and Insecticons are seen. I think this is because the Seekers and Insecticons (and possibly the Constructicons), are specific races of Decepticons. There are many of them. Any Thundercrackers, Skywarps or Insecticons that we see later in the movie, are just members of these extended races and are not those specific characters which we saw transformed inside Unicron. -

Image


Thanks for reading my fanon explanation. I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:50 am

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Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 7:53 am

*Fanon mode* Probably, the other Autobots don't really die, they just get damaged and are fixed later. To actually die, the personality component would need to be damaged, so it could no longer hold the Spark. This only happened to Optimus Prime after his fight, not Ultra Magnus etc. If other Autobots do die, they must turn grey off camera.
Suddenly it all works, and has no errors at all!
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby PrymeStriker » Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:31 am

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Sinnertwin wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?


Hasbro: "Because Optimus is more important."
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:28 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Transcendent30 wrote:*Fanon mode* Probably, the other Autobots don't really die, they just get damaged and are fixed later. To actually die, the personality component would need to be damaged, so it could no longer hold the Spark. This only happened to Optimus Prime after his fight, not Ultra Magnus etc. If other Autobots do die, they must turn grey off camera.
Suddenly it all works, and has no errors at all!


these boys must be taking nap then? ;)
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PrymeStriker wrote:Hasbro: "Because Optimus is more important."


:lol:
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:41 am

Yep, They're just badly damaged. KOed of you will, but the personality component is intact, thus no turning grey and dyings. Wheeljack turned up later in the Headmasters and Victory cartoon anyway, so he must have been fixed somehow, along with a few others who apparently "died" in the movie.

Now I'm gonna work on a hypothesis of how Omega Supreme's launch station is awaiting him when he lands in a new location (note - it will probably involve subspace).
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:51 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Transcendent30 wrote:Yep, They're just badly damaged. KOed of you will, but the personality component is intact, thus no turning grey and dyings. Wheeljack turned up later in the Headmasters and Victory cartoon anyway, so he must have been fixed somehow, along with a few others who apparently "died" in the movie.

Now I'm gonna work on a hypothesis of how Omega Supreme's landing gear is awaiting him when he lands in a new location (note - it will probably involve subspace).


KO'd :lol: The Japanese market didn't see the movie until 1989, so all the characters featured in the pre-movie seasons were still active, so to speak. I'd put that one down to continuity between the two markets than anything else
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:02 am

Yeah, this is well known, but in order for continuity to work overall....none of them died.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:11 am

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
Weapon: Sawed-Off C02 Shotgun
Continuity you say? :-? That explains why so many dead characters appeared after the movie in Season 3, i thought they were animation errors
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Thu Jan 24, 2013 5:15 am

Personality components are quite tough objects to break. Only reasonable solution.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sinnertwin » Thu Jan 24, 2013 4:35 pm

Motto: "Take the foolish path, it's much more fun."
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Omega has an inbuilt interdimemsional teleporter. Prime has a smaller unit for his trailer
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:51 am

I couldn't agree more. Most Transformers seem to have mini interdimemsional teleporters as well, to summon weapons out of thin air.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Yweggo » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:15 pm

Also if you go with the PC removal(and rebuliding) Thundercracker, Skywarp, and the bugs could have been killed when Unicron attacked Cybertron, thus "why" they don't appear in Session 3, right?
Primus apotheosis is my new favorite thing.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:47 pm

Not quite. In my hypothesis, Thundercracker became Scourge and Skywarp became the Armada. Who knows when Skywarp would have been rebuilt under Galvatron's orders but we don't see either of them again after the movie. We do see the Insecticons in season 3 however (Five faces of Death). These must have been rebuilt using their recovered PCs.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sabrblade » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:10 pm

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It's no secret that the 3H Wreckers comic does explicitly state that Bombshell became Cyclonus and Skywarp his Armada.

BUT, the United "Macrocosmic Seekers" story explicitly states the opposite, with Skywarp being the one who became Cyclonus. :P

Sinnertwin wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?
Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.

Sinnertwin wrote:these boys must be taking nap then? ;)
Image
Transcendent30 wrote:Yep, They're just badly damaged. KOed of you will, but the personality component is intact, thus no turning grey and dyings.
The binaltech fiction confirmed that Wheeljack is deadity deadity dead in that pic. :P

Sinnertwin wrote:KO'd :lol: The Japanese market didn't see the movie until 1989, so all the characters featured in the pre-movie seasons were still active, so to speak. I'd put that one down to continuity between the two markets than anything else
Transcendent30 wrote:Yeah, this is well known, but in order for continuity to work overall....none of them died.
Though the Japanese didn't get the movie until 1989, they were still very much aware of its events since the entire point of much the 1986 TV Magazine story pages were dedicated to summarizing the "Unicron War" and getting Japanese viewers caught up on its events.

And the Japanese dub of "Dark Awakening" still had Daniel acknowledge Ironhide, Prowl, Ratchet, and Huffer as all being dead (despite some of them appearing in The Headmasters a year later).
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby BeastProwl » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:50 pm

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If I may touch on the "subspace" bit?
Remember Animated Swindle's "Storage?"
The Autobots and Decepticons both have hidden armories in deep space accessible via portable wormhole generators.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:10 am

I believe 3H Comics had the backing of Hasbro, which trumps Takara's United material when it comes to canon, so Bombshell's old body became Cyclonus 100% of definite.

Ok I forgot about Dark Awakening, The Autobot Mausoleum definitely has Ironhide, Ratchet, Prowl, Huffer, and Optimus Prime all dead and entombed in it.

I just re-watched the movie, nope Prowl and Ratchet do not turn grey when they die, but they must have gone grey off camera.

Wheeljack may have been dead as well, as the others seem to have been. The fact we see him and Prowl in later cartoon storylines is probably due to them being rebuilt using existing blue prints (as with the Insecticons), and then given a different (or maybe their original) spark, through the power of Vector Sigma.

As for Binialtech fiction, well that is no longer in continuity with the cartoon anyway, as it branched off into its own universe.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 7:55 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sinnertwin wrote:
Transcendent30 wrote:Thanks for reading my fanon explaination :D . I have officially fixed the movie!...well that bit of it.


Next question: Why does Optimus fade to black, unlike all the other dead Autobots we see?

excuse me..................but you need to rewatch the film.

All the,in narrative, "confirmed dead" autobots, except Ironhide and Huffer, faded to gray.

And for the record, the "in narrative" confirmed dead are

Ratchet....,,,,faded color
Prowl..........faded color
Optimus Prime..faded color
Ironhide.......we never saw his body after death
Huffer.........died off screan
and we never saw Ironhide after he died.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:00 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:It's no secret that the 3H Wreckers comic does explicitly state that Bombshell became Cyclonus and Skywarp his Armada.

BUT, the United "Macrocosmic Seekers" story explicitly states the opposite, with Skywarp being the one who became Cyclonus. :P


well they are 2 different continuities

Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.


good memory bud :APPLAUSE:

The binaltech fiction confirmed that Wheeljack is deadity deadity dead in that pic.

again, a different continuity
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:04 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Transcendent30 wrote:I just re-watched the movie, nope Prowl and Ratchet do not turn grey when they die, but they must have gone grey off camera.


Sorry buddy, but you were not paying close attention.

Prowl faded in color in the close up shots of his face.

Ratch's faded hand can be seen when Megatron walks by his budy....no less while Ironhide is fully colored.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Sabrblade » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:35 pm

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Transcendent30 wrote:I believe 3H Comics had the backing of Hasbro, which trumps Takara's United material when it comes to canon, so Bombshell's old body became Cyclonus 100% of definite.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa, back up there, man. Whether it's Hasbro or Takara, anything officially released under the license of either is canon. There's no "one company trumps another" in such a case as this. All officially licensed fiction is canon in some form.

Transcendent30 wrote:I just re-watched the movie, nope Prowl and Ratchet do not turn grey when they die, but they must have gone grey off camera.

Ratchet:
Image
Image

Prowl:
Image
Image
Image

While neither fade nearly as dark as Optimus or Starscream do, both fade to a darker tone than normal. Ratchet's red hands go dark and Prowl's white gets duller while his reds also darken as well.

Transcendent30 wrote:As for Binialtech fiction, well that is no longer in continuity with the cartoon anyway, as it branched off into its own universe.
In the specific Binaltech story that says Cartoon Wheeljack died in the movie, Binaltech Wheeljack looks from his timeline through portal into the timeline of the movie's events and acknowledges his cartoon self as being dead.

================================================================================

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:well they are 2 different continuities
again, a different continuity
I know I know. But the OP seems to like blending English and Japanese continuities together, so I was going along with his thinking until the right moment to drop the "different languages = different continuities" bomb. :lol:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.


good memory bud :APPLAUSE:
And I finally found the old topic where you posted them (though, a LOT of them seemed to have been deleted, so I made do with what I could find). :oops:
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby sto_vo_kor_2000 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 10:49 pm

Motto: "Today is a good day to die......but the day is not yet over!"
Sabrblade wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:well they are 2 different continuities
again, a different continuity
I know I know. But the OP seems to like blending English hand Japanese continuities together, so I was going along with his thinking until the right moment to drop the "different languages = different continuities" bomb. :lol:

ahh, didnt know that.
Sabrblade wrote:
sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Sto once posted pics here of fallen Prowl and Ratchet with their colors muted on the shuttle.


good memory bud :APPLAUSE:
And I finally found the old topic where you posted them (though, a LOT of them seemed to have been deleted, so I made do with what I could find). :oops:


I see.Not exactly deleated, but moved to new folders.
I'll post them all right now for all gto see.

Prowl standing to fight, full color,his white areas are very bright and pay close attention to the horns on his head....see they are RED
Image

he is shot...horns still red, whites still bright
Image

skip ahead to his falling.........whites are dull other areas are muted.
Image
Image
Image
Image

close ups begin....watch the horns fade to gray while the bright white dulls, even his face color darkens

Image
Image
Image
Image

Image
Image
Image
Image

Here we see Ratchet standing.Main body white, RED HANDS
Image

heres a close up of his hands
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falling to ground
Image

now we skip a head to when Megatron pass's the bodies of Ironhide and Ratchet on the ground

look at Ratch's hand and arm, duller white, and a gray/black hand.Ironhide still fully red and still alive as we all know ...for at least a few seconds.
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Image
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Transcendent30 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 12:18 am

Ah, I see the fading to grey now, that all happened very fast! Anyway 3h Wreckers comic is in continuity with the G1 cartoon, is the Takara United stuff? United fiction is probably its own universe branch like the Classics fiction. Cyclonus may be Skywarp......in the United universe only.
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby Red 50 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 4:58 pm

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Great. Now I can't get my mind off the first greatest carnage of beloved and iconic characters.

It's not such a bad thing. It's just a sad scene.
Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet, Ironhide...
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Re: My take on the Cyclonus + his armada problem.

Postby PrymeStriker » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:06 pm

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Red 50 wrote:It's not such a bad thing. It's just a sad scene.
Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet, Ironhide...


Let me fix that for you.

Red 50 wrote:It's not such a bad thing. It's just the best scene ever.
Brawn, Prowl, Ratchet, Ironhide. :DANCE:


:twisted: :KREMZEEK:
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