The Energon Pub

Just Negare wrote:This better be true.

Anyway, why does this movie need a female lead? Is Bay that desperate that the only way they can get bums in seats is to have some half naked ho bag dancing around giant robots?

Why can't it just be about the violent giant robot war?

Thats what Im sayin!

Autobot032 wrote:It certainly is, when people clearly state they want the man dead, his room was broken into and stuff stolen, and you publicly make idiotic comments such as deporting the man, all because he directed a movie about TransFormers.

It's not hard to make a judgment on it when it's plain as day and people willingly run their mouths and say horrible and ridiculous things over something so unimportant.

And before you say it, yes saying what you say about Bay IS important. Your comment, while idiotic, is harmless in the grand scheme of things (though irritating beyond belief), but other comments by many other people have actually threatened the man's life and had people PRAYING and HOPING he'd die.

That's important. That's borderline terroristic. They call that Terroristic Threats, and why Bay hasn't pressed charges against some of these people (and some of them can be tracked), is beyond me. He has far more patience than most people. Plenty of other famous people would've had the law crush these roaches.

I'm just so sick and tired of hearing people complain about the man. There is absolutely nothing that can be done to get him out of TransFormers. You're stuck with him, simple as that. If you don't like it, too bad. Go find something else to do.

Paramount wants money. Bay delivers money. It's safe to say that Bay's not going anywhere, and not any time soon.

These constant negative comments directed toward the man make people look pathetic. Anyone from the outside looking in would say "Okay, maybe they're right." the first time. As time goes on, someone will say "Okay, they're carrying it a bit too far." Now, if an outsider saw these comments, they'd say "Ugh. They're just as bad, if not worse than those crazy Star Wars people. It's just a movie. This is why I can't stand these nerdy geek people, they're nutter than squirrel ****."

And you know what? I'm starting to think they're right.

Well put, this stupid "I hate Bay" fad is pathetic and annoying at best. He's suffered the most unfair criticism I've ever seen. It's a witch hunt, plain and simple.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Just Negare wrote:This better be true.

Anyway, why does this movie need a female lead? Is Bay that desperate that the only way they can get bums in seats is to have some half naked ho bag dancing around giant robots?

Why can't it just be about the violent giant robot war?

Thats what Im sayin!

The second movie was definitely more about the robot war. Granted, it wasn't handled quite the way we thought it would be, but it was. Definitely more than the first movie showed.

But, the general audience needs a human element to connect to, and without it, there just won't be an audience.

It's a price we have to pay to get the movies. The human element could be handled better, for sure, but at least we got the movies.

Plus, it's expensive to render the 'bots. If the movie was wall to wall robots, I'm sure it'd be a lot more costly than $200 million to produce.

Autobot032 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Just Negare wrote:This better be true.

Anyway, why does this movie need a female lead? Is Bay that desperate that the only way they can get bums in seats is to have some half naked ho bag dancing around giant robots?

Why can't it just be about the violent giant robot war?

Thats what Im sayin!

The second movie was definitely more about the robot war. Granted, it wasn't handled quite the way we thought it would be, but it was. Definitely more than the first movie showed.

But, the general audience needs a human element to connect to, and without it, there just won't be an audience.

It's a price we have to pay to get the movies. The human element could be handled better, for sure, but at least we got the movies.

Plus, it's expensive to render the 'bots. If the movie was wall to wall robots, I'm sure it'd be a lot more costly than $200 million to produce.

In ROTF I thought it was going to be about Robots killing each other, the Matrix of leadership, the Decepticons capturing Sam, and for the most part, it happened. I did think it was going to be darker with more character deaths, and despite all my bitching about "why plot doesnt matter in a transformers movie" the plot definately was darker in ROTF. In TF1 it was about robots looking for glasses on Ebay, big f*king whoop. ROTF was about one kid's destiny to save the world from an alien race, by first realizing his destiny and building the courage to help save it while hes fighting with 40 ft robots with no weapons and every one after him trying to either kill him or capture him. yeah, and all you people who bitch about ROTF having no plot, there's your f*king plot! Read it and let it sink in so I can laugh at you once you realize that Ive been right all this time!!!

SlyTF1 wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Just Negare wrote:This better be true.

Anyway, why does this movie need a female lead? Is Bay that desperate that the only way they can get bums in seats is to have some half naked ho bag dancing around giant robots?

Why can't it just be about the violent giant robot war?

Thats what Im sayin!

The second movie was definitely more about the robot war. Granted, it wasn't handled quite the way we thought it would be, but it was. Definitely more than the first movie showed.

But, the general audience needs a human element to connect to, and without it, there just won't be an audience.

It's a price we have to pay to get the movies. The human element could be handled better, for sure, but at least we got the movies.

Plus, it's expensive to render the 'bots. If the movie was wall to wall robots, I'm sure it'd be a lot more costly than $200 million to produce.

In ROTF I thought it was going to be about Robots killing each other, the Matrix of leadership, the Decepticons capturing Sam, and for the most part, it happened. I did think it was going to be darker with more character deaths, and despite all my bitching about "why plot doesnt matter in a transformers movie" the plot definately was darker in ROTF. In TF1 it was about robots looking for glasses on Ebay, big f*king whoop. ROTF was about one kid's destiny to save the world from an alien race, by first realizing his destiny and building the courage to help save it while hes fighting with 40 ft robots with no weapons and every one after him trying to either kill him or capture him. yeah, and all you people who bitch about ROTF having no plot, there's your f*king plot! Read it and let it sink in so I can laugh at you once you realize that Ive been right all this time!!!

ROTF clearly had a plot. The first movie, I'm not sure what it was.

We meet Sam, he meets Bumblebee. That part is fine, they conveyed that just fine. The rest of it was just a jumbled mess.

But the first time you watch the movie, you're completely at a loss. You're so excited and in awe of the impending robot scenes, you can't even pay attention to the problems.

First time watching TF1:

Why did Blackout destroy the base and it's information?
Why was Frenzy on Air Force One? (although this one was answered quickly)

Why are worldwide communications down?

None of it made sense and was terribly convoluted the first time through.

And the Decepticons blocking worldwide communications so other humans wouldn't know about the Sabot rounds seems a bit...far fetched. If anything, I'd think the Decepticons would be worried about the humans contacting the Autobots, even inadvertently. That would've made more sense than what we got.

And there were too many threads to tie up by the end of the film, and they weren't handled well.

The first movie was just an onslaught of "WOW!" to the point that no one cared how bad it was. Everyone was just sitting there going "Dude, this is the most awesome thing."

And on subsequent viewings you start to see the problems manifest, and even though you know the plot and can get around the convolutions, you don't really give a crap to do so.

You understand what the Decepticons are doing now, you understand why the Autobots haven't appeared sooner, you even get the military presence to it, after you've had a chance to let it all sink in.

And it just wasn't worth it. I was so enthralled by the movie that I watched it repeatedly in theaters and on DVD, but as I continued to watch it, I found my attention becoming more and more detached with each viewing. That's pretty bad.

The glasses had the map imprinted on them, which explains why the Decepticons were checking out eBay and looking for Sam, but why didn't they just say that from the get go? In repeat viewings, you get it. Not the first time.

The Cube, Sector 7, all of it was just handled so badly, and it wasn't Bay's fault. I read the treatment that Orci and Kurtzman had made (the leaked one) and it wasn't much different than what was on screen, and Bay had no control over that, and I think people should remember that. It the treatment sucked, the movie following it was going to.

And it was due to bad writing.

ROTF was clear, plain and simple from the get go. Anyone watching it a first time, second time, whatever, you got it. And there was a story.

ROTF wasn't the perfect film, but it was truer to it's TF roots than the first film was. It had a real villain, a plot, and the story actually worked.

I think part of the reason critics put it down is because Bay got it right the second time, and they're still feeling the sting from the first one, so they cracked on this one just to make themselves feel better.

I mean, the movie WAS better, the box office take was bigger, and the audience loved it, so....what does that say?

Bay does know what he's doing. He can't help it if the people writing it aren't worth a damn.

But I think Ehren Kruger is going to do a good job. The first film had John something or other helping Orci and Kurtzman, it was the same guy behind Catwoman (the one with Halle Berry), and that was terrible with a capital T. So to assume he'd bring anything to it was a mistake.

We've seen that Orci and Kurtzman aren't quite the wunderkinds we thought they were. I'd say what DID work in ROTF was Kruger's handiwork.

And I think he might just surprise us in 3. Besides, three writers is just too much. Too many ideas and opinions flying around.

And if the 3rd one is a hit with critics and fans, then it proves that Orci and Kurtzman were the problem.

Autobot032 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Autobot032 wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Just Negare wrote:This better be true.

Anyway, why does this movie need a female lead? Is Bay that desperate that the only way they can get bums in seats is to have some half naked ho bag dancing around giant robots?

Why can't it just be about the violent giant robot war?

Thats what Im sayin!

The second movie was definitely more about the robot war. Granted, it wasn't handled quite the way we thought it would be, but it was. Definitely more than the first movie showed.

But, the general audience needs a human element to connect to, and without it, there just won't be an audience.

It's a price we have to pay to get the movies. The human element could be handled better, for sure, but at least we got the movies.

Plus, it's expensive to render the 'bots. If the movie was wall to wall robots, I'm sure it'd be a lot more costly than $200 million to produce.

In ROTF I thought it was going to be about Robots killing each other, the Matrix of leadership, the Decepticons capturing Sam, and for the most part, it happened. I did think it was going to be darker with more character deaths, and despite all my bitching about "why plot doesnt matter in a transformers movie" the plot definately was darker in ROTF. In TF1 it was about robots looking for glasses on Ebay, big f*king whoop. ROTF was about one kid's destiny to save the world from an alien race, by first realizing his destiny and building the courage to help save it while hes fighting with 40 ft robots with no weapons and every one after him trying to either kill him or capture him. yeah, and all you people who bitch about ROTF having no plot, there's your f*king plot! Read it and let it sink in so I can laugh at you once you realize that Ive been right all this time!!!

ROTF clearly had a plot. The first movie, I'm not sure what it was.

We meet Sam, he meets Bumblebee. That part is fine, they conveyed that just fine. The rest of it was just a jumbled mess.

But the first time you watch the movie, you're completely at a loss. You're so excited and in awe of the impending robot scenes, you can't even pay attention to the problems.

First time watching TF1:

Why did Blackout destroy the base and it's information?
Why was Frenzy on Air Force One? (although this one was answered quickly)

Why are worldwide communications down?

None of it made sense and was terribly convoluted the first time through.

And the Decepticons blocking worldwide communications so other humans wouldn't know about the Sabot rounds seems a bit...far fetched. If anything, I'd think the Decepticons would be worried about the humans contacting the Autobots, even inadvertently. That would've made more sense than what we got.

And there were too many threads to tie up by the end of the film, and they weren't handled well.

The first movie was just an onslaught of "WOW!" to the point that no one cared how bad it was. Everyone was just sitting there going "Dude, this is the most awesome thing."

And on subsequent viewings you start to see the problems manifest, and even though you know the plot and can get around the convolutions, you don't really give a crap to do so.

You understand what the Decepticons are doing now, you understand why the Autobots haven't appeared sooner, you even get the military presence to it, after you've had a chance to let it all sink in.

And it just wasn't worth it. I was so enthralled by the movie that I watched it repeatedly in theaters and on DVD, but as I continued to watch it, I found my attention becoming more and more detached with each viewing. That's pretty bad.

The glasses had the map imprinted on them, which explains why the Decepticons were checking out eBay and looking for Sam, but why didn't they just say that from the get go? In repeat viewings, you get it. Not the first time.

The Cube, Sector 7, all of it was just handled so badly, and it wasn't Bay's fault. I read the treatment that Orci and Kurtzman had made (the leaked one) and it wasn't much different than what was on screen, and Bay had no control over that, and I think people should remember that. It the treatment sucked, the movie following it was going to.

And it was due to bad writing.

ROTF was clear, plain and simple from the get go. Anyone watching it a first time, second time, whatever, you got it. And there was a story.

ROTF wasn't the perfect film, but it was truer to it's TF roots than the first film was. It had a real villain, a plot, and the story actually worked.

I think part of the reason critics put it down is because Bay got it right the second time, and they're still feeling the sting from the first one, so they cracked on this one just to make themselves feel better.

I mean, the movie WAS better, the box office take was bigger, and the audience loved it, so....what does that say?

Bay does know what he's doing. He can't help it if the people writing it aren't worth a damn.

But I think Ehren Kruger is going to do a good job. The first film had John something or other helping Orci and Kurtzman, it was the same guy behind Catwoman (the one with Halle Berry), and that was terrible with a capital T. So to assume he'd bring anything to it was a mistake.

We've seen that Orci and Kurtzman aren't quite the wunderkinds we thought they were. I'd say what DID work in ROTF was Kruger's handiwork.

And I think he might just surprise us in 3. Besides, three writers is just too much. Too many ideas and opinions flying around.

And if the 3rd one is a hit with critics and fans, then it proves that Orci and Kurtzman were the problem.

This is exactly how I feel about every thing! I thought the first movie was the greatest thing since buttered crumpets at first, but I watched it so many times that now I cant get through an hour of it. And I think the reason every one bashes ROTF is because the critics cant stand the fact that Michael Bay actually did something right, which is just encouraging fans to love it more. I like Bay granted the only Bay movie I can watch without being bored is ROTF, but the camera work and score and every thing fit so well with the scenes, that people should still love it just for that, and stop complaining about a "shallow" plot.

SlyTF1 wrote:This is exactly how I feel about every thing! I thought the first movie was the greatest thing since buttered crumpets at first, but I watched it so many times that now I cant get through an hour of it. And I think the reason every one bashes ROTF is because the critics cant stand the fact that Michael Bay actually did something right, which is just encouraging fans to love it more. I like Bay granted the only Bay movie I can watch without being bored is ROTF, but the camera work and score and every thing fit so well with the scenes, that people should still love it just for that, and stop complaining about a "shallow" plot.

Oh, I'll admit that ROTF has the depth of a puddle, I can't lie and say it was deep or thought provoking. I think a bit more emotion could go a long way.

I didn't care for Armageddon, but I liked The Rock and Bad Boys I and II. Some of Bay's work has been great, and enjoyable, so it's not just TransFormers.

I'm not saying Bay's a hero. I'm not saying he's the best director in the world. But, he is a capable director, and a good one at that. He knows how to capture mayhem and fun on screen, and he does it well. Sure, he directs some dumb stuff, I won't lie, but seriously...do all movies have to be srs business?

Sure, I love a good, thought provoking film that gets to me emotionally, we all do. But movies are one of the best forms of escapist entertainment, and Bay continues that trend with these movies. Why can't people just relax their sphincter and just have fun?

G1 was just as dumb, campy, goofy, and puddle thin (in fact, it was worse), and it was embraced. Why is ROTF vilified when it embraced it's roots? I just don't get it. I really don't.

What DO people want? Because none of it makes much sense to me.

Should the movie be disgusting jokes? No.
Should it be a T&A promotion? No.
Should it be offensive and borderline racist? No.

But that's not all there is to these movies. Especially ROTF.

They wanted the robots in live action. Got it.
They wanted more robot screen time. Got it.
They wanted it to be like they remember, big and loud and outlandish. Got it.

Aside from Starscream not being a backstabber, I'd say the characters for the most part match their G1 counterparts.

So, what is it exactly that the movie's lacking, and what the heck do you people want?

And don't give me the Dreamwave era writing crap, because it's boring and too dark and sucks the fun out of it.

I think a balance between Hollywood hijinks comedy and Dreamwave material is possible. I also think some of the fans need to let go of certain things and try and enjoy the ride.

This is all meant to be in fun. When did people forget that?

Autobot032 wrote:
Oh, I'll admit that ROTF has the depth of a puddle, I can't lie and say it was deep or thought provoking. I think a bit more emotion could go a long way.


Why can't people just relax their sphincter and just have fun?

G1 was just as dumb, campy, goofy, and puddle thin (in fact, it was worse), and it was embraced. Why is ROTF vilified when it embraced it's roots? I just don't get it. I really don't.

What DO people want? Because none of it makes much sense to me.


So, what is it exactly that the movie's lacking, and what the heck do you people want?

And don't give me the Dreamwave era writing crap, because it's boring and too dark and sucks the fun out of it.

I think a balance between Hollywood hijinks comedy and Dreamwave material is possible. I also think some of the fans need to let go of certain things and try and enjoy the ride.

This is all meant to be in fun. When did people forget that?

At the prodigious risk of getting blasted for this, I think the answer to the question remains the same as it always has been: some people just didn't like ROTF.
I know that's a borderline unpardonable sin, but it really, really could be the answer. It's not for the most part any deep, cosmic question.

Sure, some people have made moronic statements and stupid 'threats' based on Bay and what they see as denegration of the franchise, but for the sane people out there, it is entirely possible that some people just don't like the movies. I don't, and I don't have to, but I've not made posts about how idiotic people are for liking them nor have I made posts amounting to my personal feelings being trampled on becuase people like the films. But still, it's verboten for people to say they didn;t like the films because they are railroaded by people who did, and who feel like they have to talk about it in husheed tones because they're like, persecuted by those who didn;t like the films.
I mean, sure G1 was shallow and all of that, but it's still possible for that to be someone's favorite. Or at the least, for them to like that better.

I prefer the Dreamwave writing, and "don't give me that Dreamwave. . . because it's . . ." is really the same thing as someone saying that the writing of ROTF was too something or other. They're both opinions. But we all know that, becuase we've talked about it too much at this point. We all know that ROTF/the live action movies has become about being right. So and so didn't like it, so we all have to be 'right' and champion it. So and so did like it, and so we all have to be 'right' and denegrade it. That's all. We're not talking about the movies anymore, we're talking about being 'right'. I still challenge anyone who thinks I'm overly negative regarding ROTF to find my posts about how we should do this or that to Bay or the writers or whatver, becuase I don't say ignorant things like that, becuase I'm not interested in being 'right' about this or any other movie. And, to borrow your own phrase, don't give me that 'we;re tired of being picked on for liking the movie' line, because I don't appreciate having people take out their vitriol on me becuase I have the audacity to say "I didn't like it." Just cause some people swear and curse Bay et all, doesn;t mean that I do it, and I don't.

Aside, in your previous post, you listed things from the first movie that seemed unexplained or at least not explained well. At the continued risk of chastizement, I offer into evidence the idea that those things were not difficult to understand. The attack on the military base was explained essentially during the attack. Blackout was after the information on the computers, which was how they were attemptng to find Megatron until the convienent gathering of everyone at the dam. And, as an invading military unit, why wouldn't the Decepticons try to knock out military targets and/or disrupt communications? Sure, they are robots in disguise, but they were stiull an invasion force, or infiltration or however you'd prefer to say it, and real life human militaries do the same kind of things.

Dagon wrote:At the prodigious risk of getting blasted for this, I think the answer to the question remains the same as it always has been: some people just didn't like ROTF.
I know that's a borderline unpardonable sin, but it really, really could be the answer. It's not for the most part any deep, cosmic question.

Actually, I have no problem with people simply not liking it. There's nothing wrong with people liking or disliking something. Plenty of people still cherish G1, I'm not that person, but I understand why they do. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean anyone else shouldn't, or that I even have the power to sway their minds. (If I had it, I wouldn't use it. So what if they like G1? Big whoop.)

Dagon wrote:Sure, some people have made moronic statements and stupid 'threats' based on Bay and what they see as denegration of the franchise, but for the sane people out there, it is entirely possible that some people just don't like the movies. I don't, and I don't have to, but I've not made posts about how idiotic people are for liking them nor have I made posts amounting to my personal feelings being trampled on becuase people like the films. But still, it's verboten for people to say they didn;t like the films because they are railroaded by people who did, and who feel like they have to talk about it in husheed tones because they're like, persecuted by those who didn;t like the films.
I mean, sure G1 was shallow and all of that, but it's still possible for that to be someone's favorite. Or at the least, for them to like that better.

No, you yourself haven't come right out and called someone's intelligence into question, but many do. That's where it begins to grind my gears. It's fine if you don't like it, I've said it a million times before. But there's a clear difference between someone who doesn't like it, and someone who's just pulling reasons not to, out of their ass. That, and they're just complaining to complain. Some of the complaints are so ridiculous, you can tell it has to be joke, and if it isn't, then those folks are in the wrong fandom right now.

It's fine for people to like this or that, or dislike this or that, they're entitled to their opinion. But not every time do those people have to tear it apart (and some actually don't, and I commend them for it) and some folks even just leave it as simple as this: "I just simply didn't like it." They don't go into the whys and hows, they don't need to. Their point was conveyed and we got it.

But then you have the rabblerousers who complain about how the movies went, and even after the second one was more in tune with it's G1 roots, it still gave them plenty to complain about. It's those people that are the problem, in my book. Not ones who simply disliked it, but those who critique it and make outlandish claims and talk of deportation, even if joking, and all of it over a movie they didn't like?

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that is? Obviously you read the boards. Can you honestly tell me you don't facepalm at some of the responses and statements?

Dagon wrote:I prefer the Dreamwave writing, and "don't give me that Dreamwave. . . because it's . . ." is really the same thing as someone saying that the writing of ROTF was too something or other. They're both opinions. But we all know that, becuase we've talked about it too much at this point. We all know that ROTF/the live action movies has become about being right. So and so didn't like it, so we all have to be 'right' and champion it. So and so did like it, and so we all have to be 'right' and denegrade it. That's all. We're not talking about the movies anymore, we're talking about being 'right'. I still challenge anyone who thinks I'm overly negative regarding ROTF to find my posts about how we should do this or that to Bay or the writers or whatver, becuase I don't say ignorant things like that, becuase I'm not interested in being 'right' about this or any other movie. And, to borrow your own phrase, don't give me that 'we;re tired of being picked on for liking the movie' line, because I don't appreciate having people take out their vitriol on me becuase I have the audacity to say "I didn't like it." Just cause some people swear and curse Bay et all, doesn;t mean that I do it, and I don't.

You have a serious persecution complex when it comes to this stuff, don't you? And a lot of it seems aimed at me. Why, I don't know. I read your post, I realize there's real content in it, but before the end of it, there's always "Why's everybody gotta pick on me?" strewn about.

That's just silliness.

Dagon wrote:Aside, in your previous post, you listed things from the first movie that seemed unexplained or at least not explained well. At the continued risk of chastizement, I offer into evidence the idea that those things were not difficult to understand. The attack on the military base was explained essentially during the attack. Blackout was after the information on the computers, which was how they were attemptng to find Megatron until the convienent gathering of everyone at the dam. And, as an invading military unit, why wouldn't the Decepticons try to knock out military targets and/or disrupt communications? Sure, they are robots in disguise, but they were stiull an invasion force, or infiltration or however you'd prefer to say it, and real life human militaries do the same kind of things.

Apparently you didn't read what I said. I said that the first time you watch the movie it's convoluted and some of it makes no sense. I also said that it was due to the awe and the "wow" factor (which is what the movie was really about. A selling gimmick, nothing more, and it worked.) I said on subsequent viewings it made sense, but it no longer mattered because with each viewing it became less and less enjoyable and more and more terrible.

See, I do own both movies, I've watched them countless times, and I understand how they work. When you make posts like this one (I should clarify, this segment of the post), all you're doing is talking down to people as if they're your intellectual inferiors, and that simply isn't the case, Professor.

It's one thing to make a point, it's another to condescend to people as if they're stupid. Your tone always conveys a negative feel. Whether it's "Quit picking on me" or "No, you're wrong. Here's what happened, dolt." you always convey a sour disposition, and always seem as though you're itching for a fight.

I'm not asking why, I don't want to know why, I don't care to know why, it's just getting to the point that when I see that you've responded, I know that a good portion of the time, it's directed at me (I'm not the only person who's noticed this), and it makes me almost want to avoid the thread entirely, once your presence has been felt.

I think at this point, we should realize that we just aren't going to see eye to eye. Whether it's because we simply can't, or absolutely won't, it's time for us to say "You know what? We're not getting anywhere here." and just agree to disagree. You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine, and we just won't address each other any more, because it's getting us nowhere, fast.

So, in the future, I won't be directing any comments towards you, nor will I be quoting your posts in a thread, please extend me the same courtesy and I think we'll fare much better.

Thank you.

One of the posters on another board I post on sums it up perfectly:

No surprise there. Fox was probably the only person willing to come out and say "Yeah, Michael Bay is a total c**t..." Maybe not in those words as such, but we all knew it.

I'm sure she'll have a lucrative career in softcore DTV bulls**t after this.

The last part Im not sure on, though it might happen to her who knows.

omega666 wrote:Who cares? As long as Cullen is Prime, I don't care who's in and out.

Wish I could post a 12 inch high YES


Wish I could found what the real stotry is (if the news is true)

MO between TF07 & T09 her ego expanded. I liked her in the 1st film and couldnt stand her in TF09.