The Energon Pub

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:04 pm

Yes, it's an interesting and well articulated toy taken on its own, though the CHUG fixation on m0d3rn!altmodes (that thankfully seems to be dead now) left him with a wonky-looking torso and chest that looks even weirder than the Dreamwave marshmallow pecs.
But see, that's the problem: Because of the size thing, you kinda have to take it on its own. It's not big enough in comparison to most of his fellow updates (Classics Mirage, Universe Prowl, etc). But it's too big in comparison to the vintage G1 toys to fit in with them either... That's what really makes it a failure for me and why I want the Combiner Wars version instead.

News Credits: 4838 · by **william-james88** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:45 pm

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:That's what really makes it a failure for me and why I want the Combiner Wars version instead.

The combiner Wars version is its own failure. It has a fake windshield chest and looks way too broad for Optimus. The site staff made a top 10 list of best optimus toys, none got on the list but there was some talks of adding the classics one. It also doesnt look G1 in the least. I dont care that it does, but if the argument for not liking the classics is that its not G1 enough, then this one is out of the question.

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Sun Jun 11, 2017 5:43 pm

*shrug* CW Optimus looks G1-ish enough to me unmodified, and modifying should be simple... But since I apparently did not emphasize this enough... My main argument for not liking the Voyager Classics Optimus Prime is that it's not big enough in comparison to the other Classics Autobots. I actually wanted him up until I saw shots that showed that..

The Classics Seekers are also too small next to the Classics Autobots, but at least in their case they fit nicely in among the G1 toys size-wise. Classics Optimus, not so much.

ETA: So I don't think him bad so much as I think him frustrating because of size issues, much like Classics Bumblebee and TR Blaster/Soundwave. He seems to have been shafted next to Classics Megs, who is both taller than him and has bulkier kibble plus that big cannon.

He is not a bad design, I'll admit. Not like, say, the Stunticon limb robot molds in the Combiner Wars line which require one to position their arms in a wonky way for clearance purposes when using them as an arm (with Drag Strip's mold being THE ABSOLUTE WORST OFFENDER). It seems to me that if the designer had paid closer to attention to A. the G1 toys and B. taking measurements this could have been avoided, but noooo.

News Credits: 12 · by **Evil Eye** » Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:52 pm

>Transformers
>Scale
He looks sensibly sized to me, perhaps he could be a smidge bigger but he's still fine, and unlike, say, the Classics Seeker mold he still holds up well today.

News Credits: 11 · by **RAR** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 6:58 am

Optimus and Megatron I think size wise would be best as an old fashioned Ultra or a Armada era max-con in size as yes Voyagers are a bit small for some things.

I was more bothered by Jetfire being small than Optimus and Megatron though.

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Wed Jun 14, 2017 10:53 pm

RAR wrote:Optimus and Megatron I think size wise would be best as an old fashioned Ultra or a Armada era max-con in size as yes Voyagers are a bit small for some things.

I was more bothered by Jetfire being small than Optimus and Megatron though.

Voyager is fine for G1 Optimus and Megatron (their original toys were Deluxe size not counting the accessories, so going to Voyager is appropriate for size-catchup), it's just that Classics Optimus feels like kinda a midget Voyager compared to Classics Megs, the Classics/Universe Autobot cars (who are Deluxe in comparison to their Scout-size original toys), and CW Optimus (it's kinda funny, I hate CW Jetfire even though he's also more size-appropriate than his Classics counterpart, but OTOH the Classics Jetfire mold seems a decidedly better-designed toy, whereas I find CW and Classics Voyager Optimus about even in design quality as individual toys with CW getting a slight edge due to not having wedge-pecs).

Is it known who designed the Combiner Wars car limbs? I want to send them a ruler and a disappointed letter.

News Credits: 10 · by **Agamemnon** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:24 am

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:
RAR wrote:Optimus and Megatron I think size wise would be best as an old fashioned Ultra or a Armada era max-con in size as yes Voyagers are a bit small for some things.

I was more bothered by Jetfire being small than Optimus and Megatron though.

Voyager is fine for G1 Optimus and Megatron (their original toys were Deluxe size not counting the accessories, so going to Voyager is appropriate for size-catchup), it's just that Classics Optimus feels like kinda a midget Voyager compared to Classics Megs, the Classics/Universe Autobot cars (who are Deluxe in comparison to their Scout-size original toys), and CW Optimus (it's kinda funny, I hate CW Jetfire even though he's also more size-appropriate than his Classics counterpart, but OTOH the Classics Jetfire mold seems a decidedly better-designed toy, whereas I find CW and Classics Voyager Optimus about even in design quality as individual toys with CW getting a slight edge due to not having wedge-pecs).

Is it known who designed the Combiner Wars car limbs? I want to send them a ruler and a disappointed letter.

I love transformers scale discussions. It means I can post a couple of pictures. :-D

First, here's a pic I took a while ago illustrating the scale of CW limbs (and I should add BigGroove)

And then there's the classic Bruticus pics...

News Credits: 191 · by **Kurona** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:28 am

Personally speaking I've found Classics Optimus to look very good next to Universe/Generations 'bots. Of course your mileage may vary, but I find him to be a perfect size and quite the success.

Just to keep it topical, here he is with Victorion's BFS

News Credits: 56 · by **o.supreme** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 9:36 am

You all know I love the original animated series adamantly. But I remember with Starscreams Brigade (arguably one of the better episodes), that was I and my friends first *wait what?* moment.

. It was also the first episode I ever recorded on VHS when it was on TV. We repeatedly watched the sequence when Starscream put the personality components in the old WWII vehicles and how Blastoff & Vortex changed forms TWICE From older fighter planes too..a helicopters and Space Shuttle. Good Times

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:36 pm

So, I said I enjoyed Motormaster as he is, as an individual figure. Which I do. But as a torso... He's not a very good design (and that applies to Optimus Prime too). There's an even bigger issue than the clearance problem caused by the Perma-Angled-for-Dynamic!Posing feet, or the forearms not locking solidly into position in torso mode. An issue I noticed comparing him to Silverbolt and to pics of CW Defensor: The way his arms transform for torso mode means there's a big fat clearance-problem-causing block of plastic forward of either arm connector socket. This issue is not present on the Silverbolt and Hot Spot molds. And it has made up my mind on an idea I've been considering: Heavily rebuilding Motormaster to look and transform more like his G1 toy.

News Credits: 11 · by **Overcracker** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:45 pm

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:So, I said I enjoyed Motormaster as he is, as an individual figure. Which I do. But as a torso... He's not a very good design (and that applies to Optimus Prime too). There's an even bigger issue than the clearance problem caused by the Perma-Angled-for-Dynamic!Posing feet, or the forearms not locking solidly into position in torso mode. An issue I noticed comparing him to Silverbolt and to pics of CW Defensor: The way his arms transform for torso mode means there's a big fat clearance-problem-causing block of plastic forward of either arm connector socket. This issue is not present on the Silverbolt and Hot Spot molds. And it has made up my mind on an idea I've been considering: Heavily rebuilding Motormaster to look and transform more like his G1 toy.

If you are suggesting the combined mode cannot point his arms forward, that is not correct. No clearance issue exists really. The connector is placed such that the rotation happens just outside the "block of plastic"

The arm articulation is the one thing that figure gets right.

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:44 pm

No, what I am saying is that that blocks of plastic that are Motormaster's own shoulders cause clearance issues with the arms of limb robots (especially the Stunticon-mold ones. The clearance is tight even if their arms are tilted outward like the instructions say to, because those molds themselves are badly designed... At least going by photos, the Aerialbot molds don't have this problem). They can also get in the way a bit when bending the combination's arms at the elbows.

by **Optimum Supreme** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:51 pm

Overcracker wrote:
Or are you referring to the Deluxe Classics Prime.

Trukk mode is pretty crap, but man, I love that robit mode. If only he was a little bigger.

News Credits: 56 · by **o.supreme** » Tue Jun 20, 2017 3:59 pm

Optimum Supreme wrote:Trukk mode is pretty crap, but man, I love that robit mode. If only he was a little bigger.

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:46 pm

Classics Deluxe Prime, THS-01, and Robot Masters Convoy all have the same problem: They're small toys foolishly trying to imitate the much larger MP-01 (which itself foolishly tried to make Dery's simplified design into a transforming toy).

News Credits: 456 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:05 pm

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Classics Deluxe Prime, THS-01, and Robot Masters Convoy all have the same problem: They're small toys foolishly trying to imitate the much larger MP-01 (which itself foolishly tried to make Dery's simplified design into a transforming toy).

Interestingly enough, when the designer of MP-1 was interviewed about that toy a few years ago, he revealed that he actually based the robot mode design of that figure more off of the CGI robot mode design of G1 Optimus Prime that appeared sleeping inside the Ark in the Beast Wars cartoon, instead of basing it more off of the hand-drawn robot mode design of G1 Optimus Prime from the G1 cartoon itself.

News Credits: 2 · by **Insurgent** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:10 am

Sabrblade wrote:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Classics Deluxe Prime, THS-01, and Robot Masters Convoy all have the same problem: They're small toys foolishly trying to imitate the much larger MP-01 (which itself foolishly tried to make Dery's simplified design into a transforming toy).
Interestingly enough, when the designer of MP-1 was interviewed about that toy a few years ago, he revealed that he actually based the robot mode design of that figure more off of the CGI robot mode design of G1 Optimus Prime that appeared sleeping inside the Ark in the Beast Wars cartoon, instead of basing it more off of the hand-drawn robot mode design of G1 Optimus Prime from the G1 cartoon itself.

Cool. Does that mean mp-01 could ve considered a beast wars mp? :lol:

News Credits: 456 · by **Sabrblade** » Thu Jun 22, 2017 2:29 am

Insurgent wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Classics Deluxe Prime, THS-01, and Robot Masters Convoy all have the same problem: They're small toys foolishly trying to imitate the much larger MP-01 (which itself foolishly tried to make Dery's simplified design into a transforming toy).
Interestingly enough, when the designer of MP-1 was interviewed about that toy a few years ago, he revealed that he actually based the robot mode design of that figure more off of the CGI robot mode design of G1 Optimus Prime that appeared sleeping inside the Ark in the Beast Wars cartoon, instead of basing it more off of the hand-drawn robot mode design of G1 Optimus Prime from the G1 cartoon itself.

Cool. Does that mean mp-01 could ve considered a beast wars mp?

Well, he does size up to the vintage BW toys better than the smaller MP-10 does.

News Credits: 4 · by **King Kuuga** » Tue Jul 04, 2017 4:20 am

Oh boy. I just did about 10 pages of catching up in this thread.

First let me say: a Predaking with a same-size class torso would not work. Mastermind tried to make Razorclaw similarly sized but still larger with their Feral Rex and he's STILL too small of a torso for that figure. Unless you can design a Razorclaw that telescopes in every direction for torso mode and is still able to support the limbs (if you want them all voyagers this is an exceptionally challenging task) then it's not happening. Also, remember how Devastator had to compromise his height with extremely hollow parts? Preds would have to do the same thing to be large-scale. As much as I enjoy my Feral Rex, he does not support his own weight very well. (this is compounded by the figures being very heavy and some joints or connections relatively weak) A voyager torso with deluxe limbs Predaking might honestly be the best way to go for him, should that ever happen.

As far as redesigns of Motormaster go: you may be better off either designing a new figure from the ground up, or buying that third party G1-ish Not-Motormaster that's CW compatible because otherwise you are looking at basically stripping down the figure to a torso and rebuilding the rest with new parts.

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 6:54 am

King Kuuga wrote:Oh boy. I just did about 10 pages of catching up in this thread.

First let me say: a Predaking with a same-size class torso would not work. Mastermind tried to make Razorclaw similarly sized but still larger with their Feral Rex and he's STILL too small of a torso for that figure. Unless you can design a Razorclaw that telescopes in every direction for torso mode and is still able to support the limbs (if you want them all voyagers this is an exceptionally challenging task) then it's not happening. Also, remember how Devastator had to compromise his height with extremely hollow parts? Preds would have to do the same thing to be large-scale. As much as I enjoy my Feral Rex, he does not support his own weight very well. (this is compounded by the figures being very heavy and some joints or connections relatively weak) A voyager torso with deluxe limbs Predaking might honestly be the best way to go for him, should that ever happen.

The G1 Predaking toy had a same-size-class torso and pulled it off, so I think it could work. And I wouldn't want him to be Titan-class, that's way too big. He should be of the same size as regular CW combiners (like, say, Sky Reign or Lynxmaster). Which would probably require height-compensation via combiner kibble, but then G1 Predaking's combiner kibble was extra-bulky anyway. And that's where making them Voyagers comes in. The robot itself would be of a more middling size between deluxe and voyager because of some of the mass going to the combiner bits.

King Kuuga wrote:As far as redesigns of Motormaster go: you may be better off either designing a new figure from the ground up, or buying that third party G1-ish Not-Motormaster that's CW compatible because otherwise you are looking at basically stripping down the figure to a torso and rebuilding the rest with new parts.

Not the entire rest. Several key pieces and joints would be usable and a relief to not have to make from scratch.
As for that 3rd-party figure.. A. I don't have that kind of money and B. For what I've seen tat guy go for I could get a boxset like Victorion instead.

Now for my main purpose in returning to this thread:

A cheap name-change joke

News Credits: 456 · by **Sabrblade** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 9:20 am

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:Now for my main purpose in returning to this thread:

A cheap name-change joke

"Suponion"?

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:18 pm

No, no. You know how for CW Fireflight was renamed "Firefly"? Guess what that pony's name is.

News Credits: 456 · by **Sabrblade** » Thu Jul 06, 2017 2:16 pm

Hey guys, get a load of these Japanese Combiner Wars customs:

Shattered Glass Soundwave

The blue-colored Rescue Bots Blurr (also notice the new visor added to the head)

(also notice the new visor added to the head)

Shattered Glass Drift (SG is popular over in the Japanese fandom)

News Credits: 4 · by **King Kuuga** » Fri Jul 07, 2017 12:01 am

ZeldaTheSwordsman wrote:The G1 Predaking toy had a same-size-class torso and pulled it off, so I think it could work.

Honestly I disagree. G1 Predaking has huge arms, huge stubby legs, and a tiny torso.

It worked in the 80s but we can do better now.

by **ZeldaTheSwordsman** » Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:15 pm

We're of opposing viewpoints then. I think the proportions still work decently overall (what it most needs is mane and wing extensions for Razorclaw and Divebomb). As for the stubby legs, that's fairly typical of combiners who aren't Devastator especially in the G1 toys. But it could be dealt with not by making Razorclaw bigger but just by designing the combination to use Headstrong and Tantrum's beast heads for extra height. That sad, even if they all had robot modes that were more or less Deluxe in size at least one (and maybe two) would still have to be Voyagers just to have enough plastic left for parts like Divebomb's wings and the big sword.

Of course, there are still-unmade teams who better fit the typical Combiner wars design than Predaking: The Terrorcons and the Seacons. I would say the Seacons might have the edge in probability at least on the Takara side of things because they would go along with the other updated Masterforce stuff.