The Energon Pub

One thing I've noticed on this forum is that whenever the original Masterpiece Starscream is mentioned, everybody harps on about how dreadful it is and how Shoji Kawamori screwed it up. And I'm going to be honest, I'm not sure exactly why everybody hates it.

(Please bear in mind I don't actually own MP-03, although I have seen a great deal of pics/video reviews of it).

The main thing everyone seems to complain about is the hip pods. I'll be honest, I think they look pretty cool- in fact, I think their biggest weakness is the fact that they didn't go full hog with the "sword-sheath" idea and actually give him swords to fit into the pods (although I would imagine budget would have prevented this from happening). They're not exactly G1 accurate, but they do give him a really unique look, and they do help with his jet mode a lot.

The other thing everybody seems to hate is the colours, for the same reason- "NOT GEEWUN ENUFF!". Myself, I think that Starscream actually looks pretty good in "realistic" jet colours (admittedly, the colour scheme is only used by a particular sub-design of F15, but there's no denying it looks cool). Also, it's such a different, unique approach to Starscream, and I absolutely love it.

From the comparisons I've seen to MP-11...I'm going to be honest, I prefer MP-03. The MP-11 is more accurate to the cartoon, yes, but let's be honest, the cartoon model was inconsistent, primitive and pretty ugly. Out of the 2 "G1" decos I much prefer the Hasbro MP-03 deco to the MP-11 colours- the MP-11 looks closer to the cartoon, but as a result has that horrible shade of flat grey plastic with no shading at all, not to mention a really hideous shade of blue. With regards to the actual physical differences, say what you will about the robot mode, but the MP-11 jet mode is patantly inferiror to the MP-03 mode. The older figure has a much, much smoother underside and almost no noticeable robot kibble/undercarriage junk. I mean seriously, look at the difference!



I do appreciate that the MP-11 is a much, much more accurate representation of the G1 original, but to be honest, I think that it's a bit too slavish to the source material to really stand out, whereas the MP-03 at least tries to bring something new to the table. Really, I'd say that MP-03 (especially the Japanese version) works a lot better if you consider it Kawamori's personal interpretation of Starscream rather than a slavish reproduction of the cartoon model. I think if this had been marketed as its own thing (Starscream: Kawamori Edition or something) rather than as G1 Starscream it would have gone down a lot better.

Anyone else who doesn't completely hate MP-03?

The line is called "Masterpiece", and its selling point is G1 accuracy and being the best representation of those particular incarnations.
MP 02 was bad enough, but damn MP03.

It bears little resemblance to the character it's supposed to be the most accurate and best representation of, with most of the work having gone into making the alt-mode as close to a model plain as possible, then ruining that with the colour, and designing the robot-mode to appeal to Macross fans.
Especially considering the original prototype they showed to sell the pre-orders with.

So yes, it deserves every bit of hate it gets, because it fails at what it's supposed to be, which is the best and most accurate version of G1 Starscream. Sure it's cool, but it still fails at what it was supposed to do.

It has balance issues, making it hard to pose the legs. And like the other MPs of the time, it was overly complicated.

I think Dead Metal hit the nail on the head. If it weren't made with the intent of being a "Masterpiece" it may very well have been a more than adequate figure on it's own right, but of course that's not the case.

Yup, pretty much what Dead Metal said. If MP3 was meant as a Generation or other alternate Starscream, he'll definitely get lots of love/praise but not as the G1 Starscream/ G1 MP. G1 Screamer never had that samurai looks, neck kibble, or the awful seawee green color scheme in both toy nor toon. The result is a failure as many tranfans don't approve it. It may attract Macross fans but at the end of day it's transfans that provided TTomy the most income. I guess TTomy learned the mistake that's why we get MP11. And til this day, I refuse to buy the MP3 mold. Even if I do end up buy it one day, it will the be U.S. color scheme never that seawee green color and he'll be primary in jet mode.

The main problem with the original MP-03 (green) was that it was not a Masterpiece Starscream. It was a Masterpiece McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle. So, the robot mode suffured for it. As previously stated, the MP line is supposed to be as accurate to the G1 cartoon as possible.

Still, I did own the mold twice and found it very great. Both the original in G1 colors and the Ghost version. I even spent over 100$ to make a kick-ass display:

It's also very fun and not too hard to transform. Many ham-hand the poor MP-03 and break off his wings, but I transformed mines mani times and nothing ever broke. As for the hips kibbles, I just pop them off the ball joint and plug them on Screamer's legs.

Lately, I really, really desire MP-11. So, for money, space, and because I had the mold twice, I just sold my used MP-03 (G1 colors) for 100$. I'm half-way through for a MP-11! Still, no matter what, I will never, ever sell my Ghost Screamers. It's the only MP-03 mold I have left and I spendt a fortune to light that up.

Finally, I have a very strange desire creeping up. For my Strascream collection, I would like to have the original greenish MP-03. Only if I can find it MISB for dirt cheap... which is pretty unlikely.

REMINATOR wrote:Yup, pretty much what Dead Metal said. If MP3 was meant as a Generation or other alternate Starscream, he'll definitely get lots of love/praise but not as the G1 Starscream/ G1 MP. G1 Screamer never had that samurai looks, neck kibble, or the awful seawee green color scheme in both toy nor toon. The result is a failure as many tranfans don't approve it. It may attract Macross fans but at the end of day it's transfans that provided TTomy the most income. I guess TTomy learned the mistake that's why we get MP11. And til this day, I refuse to buy the MP3 mold. Even if I do end up buy it one day, it will the be U.S. color scheme never that seawee green color and he'll be primary in jet mode.

Y U NO get Ghost Starscream?
It's relatively cheap and it's jet mode is GLORIOUS with proper lighting.

-Kanrabat- wrote:
Y U NO get Ghost Starscream?
It's relatively cheap and it's jet mode is GLORIOUS with proper lighting.

That's a good idea, I'll probably do that if I decided to get the MP3 mold. I get a chance to own the G1 color scheme and display him as a ghost version in the jet mode. Two birds with one stone for a mold that I don't like that much, nice

I have the Hasbro anime color version. Nope, no way did I get the green/gray version. Heaven knows what Shoji Kawamori was smoking when he added those hip kibbles and opted for a realistic(?) color apps (it's akin to having MP-01 colored like a drab realistic tractor and not the iconic red, silver/aluminum and blue). Maybe he thought it was "hip" to look like a samurai? Lol!

"K" got it right when he called it MP F-15 Eagle, 'cause thanks to the comparison pics, we can conclude that the Jet mode is indeed near flawless in the underbelly as opposed to MP-11.

Imho, if MP03 mold has an advantage,aside frome having a flawless no robot kibble in jet mode, I'd say the face switching gimmick. The smirk gives that Seeker mold personality. MP Skywarp iirc has a gnashing teeth face and Thundercracker also has another expression.

I have the original, the Walmart exclusive G1 version, Skywarp, Thundercracker and the Ghost Starscream. I've also got the TRU Acid Storm.

I greatly prefer the original mold. I don't think the mold 'fails' at anything that can't be at very least tolerated. I really like it, and I personally feel it gets at least some of the flak it does as a kind of Transformer hipstering. Now that a new Seeker mold is out, we must hate the original as being so tragically inferior.
To each their own, I guess I just don't think attached guns and no hip kibble equates to "massive improvement".

I suppose in fairness I should add that Starscream is my favorite character, and I tend to grab anything Seeker-related that I can, so I absolutely may have fan glasses with this mold. But I still honestly think a lot of the hate for it is pointless and nitpicky.

I have MP03. There are good and bad things that I like about him. For it's time, I was happy to have MP03. But once anime colored versions were available, I got them instead.

MP03 had structural issues. The plastic felt more like model plane quality. The plastic had a matte finish. Joints were way too stiff and because the spacing between tabbed sections were so tight, there are sections that are near impossible to undo (like behind the canopy). Also the wing flaps/elevators easily popped off. Many of these issues were worked out with later releases.

MP03's color scheme was pretty cool (I like the bronze color used for his face and gun tips). But I see him now as a color variant reissue released ahead of his time.

Delta Magnus wrote:The other thing everybody seems to hate is the colours, for the same reason- "NOT GEEWUN ENUFF!". Myself, I think that Starscream actually looks pretty good in "realistic" jet colours (admittedly, the colour scheme is only used by a particular sub-design of F15, but there's no denying it looks cool). Also, it's such a different, unique approach to Starscream, and I absolutely love it.

Why does it have to be said this way?

Starscream was white-ish gray. He was not blue-ish green.

If MP Prime was something other than red and blue, would that be alright?

Exactly how is expecting Masterpiece toys, an extension of G1, to be G1 accurate anything like childish complaining?

Serious question. Why is requesting G1 accuracy something to mock?

>:oP

Thanks for all the replies!

In honesty, I've always viewed the Masterpiece line as updates and reimaginings of the classic characters rather than slavish recreations. I'll admit I've never been that much of a Geewunner- I find a lot of the character designs and alternate modes (particularly the size-changing "object" Transformers like Megatron, Soundwave and Blaster) utterly ridiculous, and if I'm honest I'd rather have a good-looking, original toy that breaks heavily from the original design whilst still evoking it than a to-the-exact-shade-of-plastic accurate remake.

Take Ironhide for example- his cartoon model is literally a pile of boxes that turns into a box on wheels, with virtually no detailing whatsoever, and of course his toy is one of the worst of the G1 line (which is saying something). A hyper-accurate representation of Ironhide's cartoon model in toy form would be terrible, regardless of how well-engineered it was, if it didn't take some liberties with the design. The iGear Weapons Specialist is a good example of how an MP Ironhide should be done (design wise at least- I've never actually held one)- it is definitely evocative of the classic model, but it updates it and makes it into its own, infinitely better, design.

Likewise, with Starscream. His design is definitely one of my favourites from the G1 cartoon, but it's still far from perfect. In particular, the colours- the colour scheme itself is fine, but the actual colours used (the weirdly dull grey and the almost baby blue specifically) just rub me the wrong way. Out of the 2 "G1" MP Starscreams I much prefer the shaded, more realistic look on the Hasbro MP-03's grey to the overly toy-like grey on MP-11. Likewise, I find the navy blue on the US MP-03 much better than MP-11's overly bright blue. Sure it's not accurate to the G1 design, but it's just better (although I fully accept that the engineering and build quality has been improved over MP-03, as I'm just talking about the design).

And that's the crux of my viewpoint on it. The G1 designs are classic, yes, but they're not perfect, they can be improved, and they have been bettered- for example, design wise (I will admit the toy was a rather over-gimmicky brick) Armada Megatron looked absolutely badass, and easily one of my favourite Megatron designs. Same with Movie Megs. I view the G1 designs as a base to build upon, to create new and interesting designs, not a restictive mold that must be followed for every interpretation of a character.

I do agree that the original MP-03's colours was a little too far from the source material to be the "definitive" Masterpiece Starscream, but it's still a perfectly worthy toy in its own right, and far from an ugly toy- and the Hasbro deco is, to me, just the right balance between homage to the original design and making it it's own thing. Likewise, whilst MP-10 is an infinitely superior toy in almost every way to MP-01, there were some things about MP-01 that were welcome changes, such as the silver pistons on the elbows (although I fully understand that they had to be removed from MP-10 to make the truck mode look right, as MP-01's truck mode was abysmal).

I dunno. Maybe I'm the wrong generation to "get" it, but I've never been that attached to the G1 designs. Quite frankly I'd like to see some non-G1 characters get a Masterpiece version (like the afforementioned Armada Megatron).

I'm a geewunner in the way that I grew up with the original show. However, I do understand that every toys would be fugly if they were pixel perfect to the low quality animation we saw on screen. Take the comics or the overly detailed art however, and we get some kick-ass designs.

Still...

Delta Magnus wrote:(...) Quite frankly I'd like to see some non-G1 characters get a Masterpiece version (like the afforementioned Armada Megatron).

This.
Oh, this.

Transformers is not just G1. There's lots and lots of other TF universes with outdated toys that could use some premium treatments. If "Masterpiece" is meant for G1 only, then call the line a different name and make premium and kick-ass version of Armada Megatron, Beast Wars Optimus Primal, TF Prime Airachnid... Wait... HasTak are already kinda doing this with the Thrilling 30th Generations line. Still, you know what I mean.

Also, please 3rd party devloppers, do it too and fill some non-G1 voids!

Firstly, GEWUUN and GEWUUUUNNNER are derogatory terms used to describe people who complain about stuff not being G1 enough, when the subject at hand is not G1.
To make it simple:
Complaining that Movie Starscream doesn't look G1 enough is stupid and not OK, this is GEWUUUUN.

But, complaining about G1 Starscream not looking G1 enough, that is OK, that is not GEWUUUN.

This isn't a line that's supposed to reinvent characters, this is a line that is specifically there to make slavish representations of the original characters as close to their fiction appearance as possible. Complaining that a toy utterly fails at that, is not useless and silly, it's the one case where it's valid.

The line is specifically to make new accurate toys for G1 characters, if you're not interested in that, then it's not a line for you. We're not claiming that everything other than G1 is worthless and ugly, we're saying that a line that advertises itself as being faithful should actually stick to its guns.

If you want an updated or improved design of a character, then go with a line that's about updating, modernizing and improving designs, like Classics etc. There are enough lines that do that.

now you mentioned Armada Megatron as being your favourite Megatron design, I love that design and would love a Masterpiece quality representation of that design, it deserves that treatment.
So what does he look like?

He's a super simple design, just boxes and a few tubes, his transformation is basically him lying down while crossing his legs. Incredibly simplistic and boring, but that's the way he is and it allows for his bot and alt modes to look as cool as they do.
So say they announced a brand spanking new version of him, as a Masterpiece, claiming it would be the best and most accurate representation of the character. Then they show a prototype and he looks perfect, lots of detail, lots of articulation and super accurate to the cartoon model.

Then imagine it coming out and it looks like this:

Original can be found here.

With the reason given that they didn't want to do a figure they already did, and they wanted the tank mode to look as realistic and model like as possible. And the original Armada Megatron colours aren't realistic enough.

Would you like that? Would you call it Masterpiece Armada Megatron and defend it as being a better incarnation than the original? I sure as hell wouldn't, I would say it sucked and failed at being Armada Megatron, which would supposedly be its entire purpose.

-Kanrabat- wrote:I'm a geewunner in the way that I grew up with the original show. However, I do understand that every toys would be fugly if they were pixel perfect to the low quality animation we saw on screen. Take the comics or the overly detailed art however, and we get some kick-ass designs.

Still...

Delta Magnus wrote:(...) Quite frankly I'd like to see some non-G1 characters get a Masterpiece version (like the afforementioned Armada Megatron).

This.
Oh, this.

Transformers is not just G1. There's lots and lots of other TF universes with outdated toys that could use some premium treatments. If "Masterpiece" is meant for G1 only, then call the line a different name and make premium and kick-ass version of Armada Megatron, Beast Wars Optimus Primal, TF Prime Airachnid... Wait... HasTak are already kinda doing this with the Thrilling 30th Generations line. Still, you know what I mean.

Also, please 3rd party devloppers, do it too and fill some non-G1 voids!

Already happened in a way.
The Masterpiece line has 2 spinoffs:
Masterpiece Brave, MP - B
And Masterpiece Movie, MP - M

The Movie spinoff was immediately hated on, because people feared it would steal spots from "actual" MPs, an because it consisted of premium repaints of the ROTF Leader Class molds, which have always been treated as Masterpiece quality representations of the characters when they were in the main line. But somehow not when they were sold as MPs. God, I hated the reaction to them, because people were too stupid to understand, that spinoffs don't take away spots from main toys.

Brave died due to low interest.

But to be brutally honest here, most more modern incarnations don't really need MP figures. G1 does, because G1 toys suck and look incredibly terrible. On top of that the MP line was an attempt to be more adult collector orientated, and most of those are G1 guys.
Pretty sure we'll get non G1 MPs again though, Takara has already shown interest in those with last year's fan poll.

The things I don't like about it:

- the hip kibble is stupid and wrong, they should have stuck to the prototype design where the fins stay on the legs;
- the hip kibble makes him almost impossible to stand;
- the wing joints aren't strong enough for the pressure they undergo during transformation and they break.

These things were fixed on the updated version.

@Dead Metal:

Eh, I see your point. I will confess to being given a kinda bad experience with the "OMG EVERYTHING MUST BE GEEWUN OR THE WORLD WILL EXPLODE" crowd that left me very quick to see cries of GEEWUN even when there are none. I do apologize if I'm being an arse.

With regards to the Armada Megatron (as you bring up a very salient point) I do think there's a point worth discussing there. With Armada Megs, whilst his design is fairly simple in that it's quite blocky and simple transformation-wise, he does have a lot of detail, especially on the toy- he's got pipes, vents, grills, panel lines, rivets and armour plates up the wazoo (most sadly unpainted) which turn him into an interesting design. If you look at some (although not all) of the G1 models, specifically Ironhide, their bodies are just cuboids with almost no detailing whatsoever- just flat panels. Now obviously it's unfair to pick on a low-budget 80s cartoon for not giving the characters Katsuhiro Otomo levels of detail (although Otomo-designed TFs would be badass) but it's not a great design to follow exactly for a good toy. Now you prbably wouldn't need to do much to an MP Ironhide to make him look good- just add a bit of panelling, the occasional greeble and minimal surface detail, plus more "mech-y" joints (which would be necessary for him to move properly anyway) and he'd be perfect.

As for if they decided to do a "realistic" MP Armada Megatron, the main difference between that and MP-03 is that Starscream was always based on a real aircraft (the F-15 Eagle) whereas Armada Megatron is an entirely fictional H-tank design. I'd certainly like to see a design for him that gives him a realistic tank mode/colour scheme whilst still having a similar robot mode design.

I think to be honest, what they should have done with MP-03 is gone with the original, more G1 accurate design for the main release and then released Kawamori's "Strike Eagle" design as a special edition, or part of a different line. In fact I think an MP subline that does more unique designs of the characters like Classics did would be really cool so long as it didn't replace the main MP line.

So yeah. TLDR: Kawamori's Starscream would have worked better as a special edition or part of a "realistic TFs" subline.

Delta Magnus wrote:@Dead Metal:

Eh, I see your point. I will confess to being given a kinda bad experience with the "OMG EVERYTHING MUST BE GEEWUN OR THE WORLD WILL EXPLODE" crowd that left me very quick to see cries of GEEWUN even when there are none. I do apologize if I'm being an arse.

With regards to the Armada Megatron (as you bring up a very salient point) I do think there's a point worth discussing there. With Armada Megs, whilst his design is fairly simple in that it's quite blocky and simple transformation-wise, he does have a lot of detail, especially on the toy- he's got pipes, vents, grills, panel lines, rivets and armour plates up the wazoo (most sadly unpainted) which turn him into an interesting design. If you look at some (although not all) of the G1 models, specifically Ironhide, their bodies are just cuboids with almost no detailing whatsoever- just flat panels. Now obviously it's unfair to pick on a low-budget 80s cartoon for not giving the characters Katsuhiro Otomo levels of detail (although Otomo-designed TFs would be badass) but it's not a great design to follow exactly for a good toy. Now you prbably wouldn't need to do much to an MP Ironhide to make him look good- just add a bit of panelling, the occasional greeble and minimal surface detail, plus more "mech-y" joints (which would be necessary for him to move properly anyway) and he'd be perfect.

Armada Megatron had a lot of detailing, and G1 toys don't. That's because they were from the 80s, before all the advances in technology allowed for the kind of detailing we had beginning in the 90s. So comparing those toys in that way is like comparing the Playstation 1 to the Playstation 4, saying that the PS1 was **** and unworthy of any kind of nostalgia because the PS4 is more powerful due to advances in technology since then.
But to add to that, Beast Wars, Beast Machines and RID all had more articulation, more complex transformations and designs than Armada Megatron, on top of rivalling him in detail, and all those lines are older than Armada. The Armada toys where simple because Hasbro wanted to go more simple like in the 80s because RID was too considered to be too complex.

As for if they decided to do a "realistic" MP Armada Megatron, the main difference between that and MP-03 is that Starscream was always based on a real aircraft (the F-15 Eagle) whereas Armada Megatron is an entirely fictional H-tank design. I'd certainly like to see a design for him that gives him a realistic tank mode/colour scheme whilst still having a similar robot mode design.

Starscream might have been based on an actual jet, but he was never portrayed as actually looking like him, neither in toy form, nor the comics or the cartoon has he ever looked like the actual jet.
But that's what you're defending here, MP 03 doesn't look like Starscream, he was designed as a model jet, that kinda turns into a robot, and was purposely designed to no look like Starscream. Same goes for Armada Megatron, if they designed a toy to turn into a realistic tank, didn't have the same colour scheme and wanted the robot to not look like Armada Megatron, because that's been done before, it wouldn't look like Armada Megatron. Sure, he might be boxy, but so is Warpath. And that was the whole point behind the redesign to Mp 03, to make it not look like Starscream.

I think to be honest, what they should have done with MP-03 is gone with the original, more G1 accurate design for the main release and then released Kawamori's "Strike Eagle" design as a special edition, or part of a different line. In fact I think an MP subline that does more unique designs of the characters like Classics did would be really cool so long as it didn't replace the main MP line.

So yeah. TLDR: Kawamori's Starscream would have worked better as a special edition or part of a "realistic TFs" subline.

So you're basically defeating the entire argument you had. You're annoyed that Masterpiece customers hate MP03 Starscream because it fails at being a Masterpiece, while arguing that it's more of a Masterpiece than the later remold, because it goes against what the line is supposed to be and completely deviates from its intent.
And now you say it shouldn't have been a Masterpiece?

We have "realistic" TF lines that concentrate on the alt-mode over the bot mode, Alternators, Alternity, Movie, etc. The Masterpiece line is there to represent the characters we love, in a form that does them justice, by giving us high quality highly representations of their original designs with updated articulation, engineering, and detailing.
That is the point behind the MP line, just like the point behind the Prime toy line was to look like the Prime characters.

Actually, you changed my mind on the matter and now I understand why people didn't like him.

I still think he looks cool, but I absolutely see your points.

Delta Magnus wrote:Actually, you changed my mind on the matter and now I understand why people didn't like him.

I still think he looks cool, but I absolutely see your points.

Good, welcome to the side of enlightenment, it'S a fun place to be, we get to hate on HasTak a lot and it can be fun. XD

Sorry, if I came off as an ass in that last post.