The Energon Pub

...am I allowed to say: the fandom?

I suppose it's not as if we get things wrong (although we do, a lot), but BOY are we an irksome lot. Especially when we can't just enjoy the hobby, without getting hung up on irrelevant details, no matter how enraging they may be.

Va'al wrote:...am I allowed to say: the fandom?

I suppose it's not as if we get things wrong (although we do, a lot), but BOY are we an irksome lot. Especially when we can't just enjoy the hobby, without getting hung up on irrelevant details, no matter how enraging they may be.

I've got two words for you: Excessive Fangirling

I'm a fanboy, I love this fandom, but there has to be a limit. I'm getting a little sick of the Robo-smut on the internet from girls who do nothing but ship and draw robo-porn.

I disagree. I'm not a big fan of it myself, but there's some amazing talent out there, and it's not just women drawing it.

This is what I mean by getting over ourselves.

Sabrblade wrote:When people think the Beast Wars and Beast Machines cartoons (and their respective BotCon fiction from the time) are in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon.

Is there anything to prove that it isn't? Because there's a ship full of Autobots and Decepticons that says it is.

My one thing: People trying to paint the Decepticons as good guys. Shattered Glass gets a pass because that's its gimmick, but otherwise the Autobots wage their battle to destroy the [b]evil[/i] forces of the Decepticons, and some people need to stop thinking it's the other way around.

Shadowman wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:When people think the Beast Wars and Beast Machines cartoons (and their respective BotCon fiction from the time) are in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon.

Is there anything to prove that it isn't? Because there's a ship full of Autobots and Decepticons that says it is.

You mean the same ship full of Autobots and Decepticons that was also had by the Marvel Comics?

And which was later also had by the Dreamwave comics (which itself made direct callbacks to Beast Wars like with the Ark volcano's "back door" being the Maximals' season 3 base doors)?

There's no question about Beast Wars being in "a" G1 continuity. But it's never been explicitly proven to be officially part of any particular preexisting one. Though it did take some inspirational elements from the G1 cartoon, it also did the same with the Marvel Comics, favoring neither one over the other, leaving the Great War's history vague and like Arthurian Legend.

The Beast Era cartoons' supplementary material from the time, released by 3H for BotCon, also treated the Beast Era's G1 as a vague history made of elements taken from both sources. The "Reaching the Omega Point" epic drew heavily from both Marvel G1 and the 1986 movie, while "The Wreckers" comics took more from the G1 cartoon and some more Marvel stuff, despite the latter being a direct sequel to the former.

In fact, the only canonical origins for the Vok tie them directly to the Swarm from Marvel G2 and their activities from those comics.

If you ask me, it's not so much as trying to prove that the show isn't part of the cartoon continuity, but rather trying to prove that it is, when there are other candidates for which continuity it could belong to (if it were to belong to any other continuity than its own individuated one, that is).

Shadowman wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:When people think the Beast Wars and Beast Machines cartoons (and their respective BotCon fiction from the time) are in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon.

Is there anything to prove that it isn't? Because there's a ship full of Autobots and Decepticons that says it is.

that only proves its part of "A" g1 continuity.

How can we tell its not US.Marvel G1, or UK.marvel G1, or Ladybird books, or Dreamwave, or Blackthorn or...............

Except...you know, there's nothing to disprove that Beast Wars takes place in the same continuity as G1. So how that could irk you is beyond me.

Shadowman wrote:Except...you know, there's nothing to disprove that Beast Wars takes place in the same continuity as G1. So how that could irk you is beyond me.

Actually there is some indication that can be said , implies BW's does not take place in the G1 CARTOON continuity.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Except...you know, there's nothing to disprove that Beast Wars takes place in the same continuity as G1. So how that could irk you is beyond me.

Actually there is some indication that can be said , implies BW's does not take place in the G1 CARTOON continuity.

Such as?

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Except...you know, there's nothing to disprove that Beast Wars takes place in the same continuity as G1. So how that could irk you is beyond me.

Actually there is some indication that can be said , implies BW's does not take place in the G1 CARTOON continuity.

Such as?

Primus
The Ark

sure, you can try and retroactively squeeze them into the g1 cartoon if you like, but thats pretty much fan wank.

as it stands, there was never any mention of Primu or any tf "God like" character within the official run of the G1 cartoon.

nor was the autrobot ship ever named.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Except...you know, there's nothing to disprove that Beast Wars takes place in the same continuity as G1. So how that could irk you is beyond me.

Actually there is some indication that can be said , implies BW's does not take place in the G1 CARTOON continuity.

Such as?

Primus
The Ark

sure, you can try and retroactively squeeze them into the g1 cartoon if you like, but thats pretty much fan wank.

as it stands, there was never any mention of Primu or any tf "God like" character within the official run of the G1 cartoon.

nor was the autrobot ship ever named.

Also, Starscream's design bore his Marvel colors.



And the Vok's origins tying them to the Swarm from Marvel G2.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Primus
The Ark

sure, you can try and retroactively squeeze them into the g1 cartoon if you like, but thats pretty much fan wank.

Uh...the Ark was kind of their base for the first two seasons. It's not really fanwank if it shows up in every episode. "Oh but they never specifically named the Ark in the cartoon!" And they never specifically named Sparks in the comics, so I guess it can't be canon with that, either.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:as it stands, there was never any mention of Primu or any tf "God like" character within the official run of the G1 cartoon.

There was never any mention of the Matrix of Leadership or Unicron before the movie, either, so are the first two season non-canon with the third one?

Sabrblade wrote:Also, Starscream's design bore his Marvel colors.

Considering the number of times characters would randomly change colors in the original...

Sabrblade wrote:And the Vok's origins tying them to the Swarm from Marvel G2.

Eight years after Beast Wars had ended.

Sabrblade wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Except...you know, there's nothing to disprove that Beast Wars takes place in the same continuity as G1. So how that could irk you is beyond me.

Actually there is some indication that can be said , implies BW's does not take place in the G1 CARTOON continuity.

Such as?

Primus
The Ark

sure, you can try and retroactively squeeze them into the g1 cartoon if you like, but thats pretty much fan wank.

as it stands, there was never any mention of Primu or any tf "God like" character within the official run of the G1 cartoon.

nor was the autrobot ship ever named.

Also, Starscream's design bore his Marvel colors.



And the Vok's origins tying them to the Swarm from Marvel G2.

I forgot about that Screamer issue, thanks

Shadowman wrote:Uh...the Ark was kind of their base for the first two seasons.

No, Autobot Headquarters was their base for the first 2 seasons.

Never in the confines of narrative of the G1 cartoon series was that base ever called "The Ark".

It's is INDEED really fanwank to retro-actively try to name that ship.

"Oh but they never specifically named the Ark in the cartoon!" And they never specifically named Sparks in the comics, so I guess it can't be canon with that, either.

there are actually some "off hand" comments to "sparks" in the G1 comic, althou it wasnt as fleshed out as it was in the beast wars series.

there are also out "refrances" to the idea of TF souls or such things.

There was never any mention of the Matrix of Leadership or Unicron before the movie, either, so are the first two season non-canon with the third one?

thats an extremely weak argument point.

both Unicron and the Matrix were both introduced within the confinds of the narrative.Its irrelevant that neither was mentioned in the first 2 seasons because the 3rd season explained some of their origin in flash back.

Considering the number of times characters would randomly change colors in the original...

sorry, theres a major difference between a deliberate act and a animation error.

what was done with Screamer in BW's was deliberate.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:When people think the G1 cartoon was the first piece of Transformers fiction ever, coming before all else and pretty being the foundation on which all post-1980's TF fiction was inspired by.

this bugs me too

It may not have been the first piece of TF fiction, but for many it was their introduction to it and can be considered by someto be the definitive start of the franchise.

If it hadn't been for the cartoon I wouldn't have started reading the comics.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Uh...the Ark was kind of their base for the first two seasons.

No, Autobot Headquarters was their base for the first 2 seasons.

Never in the confines of narrative of the G1 cartoon series was that base ever called "The Ark".

It's is INDEED really fanwank to retro-actively try to name that ship.

Then its fanwank to say the Vok are tied to the Swarm, then.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Considering the number of times characters would randomly change colors in the original...

sorry, theres a major difference between a deliberate act and a animation error.

what was done with Screamer in BW's was deliberate.

And Megatron uses his cartoon coloring:





So much for that point about Starscream, huh?

I guess my problem is, how can Sabrblade say it irks him when people get this wrong, when by his own admission it might not be? Like he said, it's set up so it could extend from either the comics or cartoon.

Shadowman, did you just ignore everything I wrote in this post?

Shadowman wrote:Uh...the Ark was kind of their base for the first two seasons. It's not really fanwank if it shows up in every episode. "Oh but they never specifically named the Ark in the cartoon!" And they never specifically named Sparks in the comics, so I guess it can't be canon with that, either.

The very concept of the Spark did not exist at the time the cartoon was written and would not be conceived until Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio came along to think it up for the Beast Wars cartoon about a decade later.

Shadowman wrote:There was never any mention of the Matrix of Leadership or Unicron before the movie, either, so are the first two season non-canon with the third one?

Like the Spark concept, neither of those things existed at the time the first two seasons were made. The movie was made to introduce them both into the cartoon.

Though the Marvel Comics had its Creation Matrix, it was a wholly different concept from the movie's Matrix of Leadership that the cartoon's mainstream appeal forced the comics to retcon into being a thing more similar to the movie's/cartoon's Matrix of Leadership, while also having to reconcile it with how the comic originally depicted it.

Shadowman wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:And the Vok's origins tying them to the Swarm from Marvel G2.

Eight years after Beast Wars had ended.

Nay! The origin was conceived by Larry DiTillio during the development of the Vok when the cartoon was still airing, and later published in the Beast Wars Universe guidebook in 2000. It's first fictional appearance was in "Primeval Dawn, Part 3" published in 2004, which was part 3 of a story begun by Bob Forward himself.

Shadowman wrote:Then its fanwank to say the Vok are tied to the Swarm, then.

Not when the cartoon's ship being called the Ark was done by fans while the Swarm origin was done officially.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Considering the number of times characters would randomly change colors in the original...

sorry, theres a major difference between a deliberate act and a animation error.

what was done with Screamer in BW's was deliberate.

And Megatron uses his cartoon coloring:

So much for that point about Starscream, huh?

What Sto means is, animation errors were mistakes. Starscream's coloring in the BW cartoon is never once identified in any manner as being a mistake. For all intents and purposed, the BW animator CHOSE to color him in Marvel colors, while also choosing to color Megatron in Sunbow-ish colors.

Shadowman wrote:I guess my problem is, how can Sabrblade say it irks him when people get this wrong, when by his own admission it might not be? Like he said, it's set up so it could extend from either the comics or cartoon.

My problem is when people assert that the Beast Era cartoons are in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon like it's some sort of fact that was always meant to be, when the creators specifically treat the Great War as Arthurian Legend and took elements from both the cartoon AND Marvel without favoring one over the other.

Never once has there ever been an official medium that openly confirmed that "The English-language Beast Wars and Beast Machines cartoons officially reside in the exact same continuity/universe/reality/dimension/world/etc. as the 1980's English-language Generation 1 Sunbow cartoon", and yet a whole lot of fans tend to think that this statement is a canonical truth despite it having never ever been declared as such by any official authority.

I ask you, any of you, to find me an official source that spells out the contents of the above statement with absolute certainty, and I will gladly look to see things in a new light.

Sabrblade wrote:My problem is when people assert that the Beast Era cartoons are in the same continuity as the G1 cartoon like it's some sort of fact that was always meant to be, when the creators specifically treat the Great War as Arthurian Legend and took elements from both the cartoon AND Marvel without favoring one over the other.

Never once has there ever been an official medium that openly confirmed that "The English-language Beast Wars and Beast Machines cartoons officially reside in the exact same continuity/universe/reality/dimension/world/etc. as the 1980's English-language Generation 1 Sunbow cartoon", and yet a whole lot of fans tend to think that this statement is a canonical truth despite it having never ever been declared as such by any official authority.

I ask you, any of you, to find me an official source that spells out the contents of the above statement with absolute certainty, and I will gladly look to see things in a new light.

Yeah, but that's the thing; no official statement means none of the three sides (Cartoon, Comics, and Either/or) can be proven or disproven. I suppose I could understand that it bugs you when people try to prove that it's based off the cartoon, but at the same time, there's not a whole lot to disprove that it's based off the cartoon.

Shadowman wrote:Then its fanwank to say the Vok are tied to the Swarm, then.

ok

not sure why you are making that point to me.I wasnt trhe one that argued that issue.

And Megatron uses his cartoon coloring:

thanks.

you just proved my argument.....more on this follows

So much for that point about Starscream, huh?

on the contrary, that actually proves my point.

Beast Wars is not directly connected to either the G1 cartoon or the g1 comic.

it must be connected to a continuity that share's elements from both continuities.

Shadowman wrote:Yeah, but that's the thing; no official statement means none of the three sides (Cartoon, Comics, and Either/or) can be proven or disproven. I suppose I could understand that it bugs you when people try to prove that it's based off the cartoon, but at the same time, there's not a whole lot to disprove that it's based off the cartoon.

Being "based off" the G1 cartoon and being "in the same continuity" as the G1 cartoon aren't the same thing. The former I'm fine with, the latter not so much. It's the latter that many believe, which irks me.

Sabrblade wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Yeah, but that's the thing; no official statement means none of the three sides (Cartoon, Comics, and Either/or) can be proven or disproven. I suppose I could understand that it bugs you when people try to prove that it's based off the cartoon, but at the same time, there's not a whole lot to disprove that it's based off the cartoon.

Being "based off" the G1 cartoon and being "in the same continuity" as the G1 cartoon aren't the same thing. The former I'm fine with, the latter not so much. It's the latter that many believe, which irks me.

I used the term "based off of" and "in the same continuity" interchangeably there, by the way.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:it must be connected to a continuity that share's elements from both continuities.

Uh...no, the issue is that which of the two continuities it's based on is kept vague. Not that there's a third continuity, that's just fanwank.

Va'al wrote:...am I allowed to say: the fandom?

I suppose it's not as if we get things wrong (although we do, a lot), but BOY are we an irksome lot. Especially when we can't just enjoy the hobby, without getting hung up on irrelevant details, no matter how enraging they may be.

I think a lot of this thread is trying to prove your point for you.

craggy wrote:

Va'al wrote:...am I allowed to say: the fandom?

I suppose it's not as if we get things wrong (although we do, a lot), but BOY are we an irksome lot. Especially when we can't just enjoy the hobby, without getting hung up on irrelevant details, no matter how enraging they may be.

I think a lot of this thread is trying to prove your point for you.

Just be silent, eat your popcorn and enjoy this.

RhA wrote:

craggy wrote:

Va'al wrote:...am I allowed to say: the fandom?

I suppose it's not as if we get things wrong (although we do, a lot), but BOY are we an irksome lot. Especially when we can't just enjoy the hobby, without getting hung up on irrelevant details, no matter how enraging they may be.

I think a lot of this thread is trying to prove your point for you.

Just be silent, eat your popcorn and enjoy this.

I've switched to ice-cream, too many kernels stuck in my teeth.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:it must be connected to a continuity that share's elements from both continuities.

Uh...no, the issue is that which of the two continuities it's based on is kept vague. Not that there's a third continuity, that's just fanwank.

Who says it has to be part of an existing G1 continuity? Why can't it be seen as its own unique G1 continuity that's a mixture of the two that it drew elements from?