The Energon Pub

What about Black Arachnia Beast Wars ?

This show was really awesome, with Dinobot and BlackArachnia evolutions. There were other wo changed side (but only for one episode so i wouldn't put them on this list) like Rhinox it was so much fun when it happento him.

But really, I think BlackArachnia deserve to be mentioned.

Brainwashed at first, then betrayed by Megatron, then forced to join Maximal in a alliance of circonstances, then a true believer. When you had love story with Silverbot in the mix. A really interesting evolution.

G1 Sunbow Skyfire?

fenrir72 wrote:G1 Sunbow Skyfire?

I don't think he really counts because he was so obviously meant to be an Autobot from the get-go. The characters on the list all had to deal with major repercussions for their decisions that lead to greater story arcs.

JazZeke wrote:

fenrir72 wrote:G1 Sunbow Skyfire?

I don't think he really counts because he was so obviously meant to be an Autobot from the get-go. The characters on the list all had to deal with major repercussions for their decisions that lead to greater story arcs.

To be fair, Dinobot was also clearly meant to be a Maximal from the get-go. As is evident from the symbol on his original toy
But yeah, it's just not quite that significant. The faction abandonment from all five on the list continued or continue to be a major factor in many (if not all) of their future stories. With Skyfire, it's just... he used to be Starscream's buddy. He joins Starscream's team. Now he sees that Starscream's team is the bad guys so he doesn't want to be one of them anymore. This will never be brought up again because this is a giant toy advert with little to no sense of or care for continuity.
I guess it was the first time it happened in the franchise so it's notable in that sense?

WHERE THE HELL IS CARNIVAC???

Dagon wrote:ROTF Jetfire? "I am a Decepticon . . . oh, wait, they're the bad guys now? Then I'm an Autobot."

In order for him to have undergone some development as a character, wouldn't he have needed to be a character first?

He was character he moved, he fought, he talked and he transformed combined with prime in end what can you ask for?

Optimum Supreme wrote:
IDW Megatron, like most IDW, should be considered bad (if official) fan fic.

Wrong. I'm sorry, but this is just flat out wrong. Personal opinions aside, IDW has given the greatest transformers stories we've ever had.

IDW Megs should be #1 for one simple reason. IDW has made us actually care about Megatron.

Ironhidensh wrote:

Optimum Supreme wrote:
IDW Megatron, like most IDW, should be considered bad (if official) fan fic.

Wrong. I'm sorry, but this is just flat out wrong. Personal opinions aside, IDW has given the greatest transformers stories we've ever had.

IDW Megs should be #1 for one simple reason. IDW has made us actually care about Megatron.

I like my Megatron to be an evil force of destruction and conquering personally.
It's fine for other characters who ended up on the 'wrong' side aren't as important but for me Megatron IS the Decepticons and for him to turn good has pretty much taken a lot of the fear and danger from the faction as a whole if even one of his stature can go completelyt against his own characterisation (I've only read a few issues from that time where he changed, out of my own curiosity as to why they'd even do such a thing). I don't like using real life historical comparisons but in my mind it's like if Hitler decided he didn't want to be Nazi boss anymore and joined Churchill (I feel bad even just typing that..cos yes i fallen into that 'every internet argument has bringing up the nazis at some point).

I personally cared a lot about Megatron from Marvel UK. Even though it turned out some of his stories were retroactively made to be about a clone of his. He was still an evil warrior with depth and characterisation over the many issues. And he'd probably be horrified at the sappy IDW version and try to kill him for sullying the good (evil) name of Megatron and Decepticons.

But hey that's just my opinon and I don't particularly like IDW's take on G1. If you do then good for you, you got new comics coming out all the time.

I, too, like my Megatron "evil and conquering." Ever since he changed faction, I completely ignored picking up the comics. When I heard the phrase (or title), "All Hail Megatron," I was so happy I bought every since back issue to read. We all Know Megatron is Optimus' opposites, evil and menacing, but heroic, in a sense." Like Optimus, who "was" phrase as the almighty Prime, Megatron commands fear to all those who oppose him and to those who follows him. The Megatron now is boring and is "not Megatron." I'm sorry but "lost light" and any iteration with Megatron as an Autobit have lost my support. I bought all other comics except those titles. So, I guess Carnivus is not "wrong." Other fans do agree with him
Like Ravage said in his dying hours in Beast Wars, "Deceptivins, Forever."

President-prime wrote:I, too, like my Megatron "evil and conquering." Ever since he changed faction, I completely ignored picking up the comics. When I heard the phrase (or title), "All Hail Megatron," I was so happy I bought every since back issue to read. We all Know Megatron is Optimus' opposites, evil and menacing, but heroic, in a sense." Like Optimus, who "was" phrase as the almighty Prime, Megatron commands fear to all those who oppose him and to those who follows him. The Megatron now is boring and is "not Megatron." I'm sorry but "lost light" and any iteration with Megatron as an Autobit have lost my support. I bought all other comics except those titles. So, I guess Carnivus is not "wrong." Other fans do agree with him
Like Ravage said in his dying hours in Beast Wars, "Deceptivins, Forever."

I guess. If you want to read the same story, over and over again. IDW ended the war and moved on, it's time for fans to do the same.

Just don't call it "fan fiction" that's what set me off.

I'm not disagreeing with you either. Everyone enjoys what they enjoy. I'm an old fashion guy. I enjoy my transformers like the Olden days with a new take, just don't change the character the way they are meant to be portrayed. And by no means is that boring. That's the thing that I enjoy about transformers, and why I continue to collect, read, and watch. Fan fiction? That's my kind of fiction, and trust me, I'm the biggest transformers fan on the block. Your fan fiction could be different. Enjoy

dragons wrote:

Dagon wrote:ROTF Jetfire? "I am a Decepticon . . . oh, wait, they're the bad guys now? Then I'm an Autobot."

In order for him to have undergone some development as a character, wouldn't he have needed to be a character first?

He was character he moved, he fought, he talked and he transformed combined with prime in end what can you ask for?

I think he means that we never knew Jetfire as anything but "I'm an autobot now", within the movie at least. So his conversion wasn't very interesting, like other characters where switching sides is a big step/change in their character development.

Someone mentioned Black Arachnia, and I gotta say, I totally agree. In some ways she even beats out Dinobot in this. Sure it was Dinobot's whole thing, but Black Arachnia really, actually, evolved into her role. The fact that she started out as a conniving schemer and became a totally trustworthy key member of the team is some pretty interesting stuff and it didn't just happen in one episode.

Rhinox/Tankorr was another good one. The key here is that he fully believed in Megatron's goals after becoming Tankorr. It wasn't just brainwashing, it was him.

I'm glad G1 Skyfire isn't on here. His faction switch isn't very important to his character.

The purpose of this list is to look into those many characters that have left their faction in favor of either another faction or to abandon factions altogether. The list takes into account how important to the overall story the Transformer in question is with his/her actions and how this changed the course of that Transformers Series.

BM Tankor should top this list. I'd venture to say that the last 1/3 of Season 1 of Beast Machines pretty much played out almost exactly according to what Tankor wanted to happen. If the Maximals had awakened Rhinox's spark and he joinied them, the rest of that show would have played out MUCH differently.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Someone mentioned Black Arachnia, and I gotta say, I totally agree. In some ways she even beats out Dinobot in this. Sure it was Dinobot's whole thing, but Black Arachnia really, actually, evolved into her role. The fact that she started out as a conniving schemer and became a totally trustworthy key member of the team is some pretty interesting stuff and it didn't just happen in one episode.

Yes ! I'm glad i'm not the only one to think that.

Rhinox/Tankorr was another good one. The key here is that he fully believed in Megatron's goals after becoming Tankorr. It wasn't just brainwashing, it was him.

Yeah I was thinking of him but, it's one of the few cases were i'm not ok with the story. I remember episods of Beast Wars where Rhinox was the very one to actually really enjoy organic life and peacefull meditation. Same way otpimus will do in Beast Machine.

And then Rhinox believe Megatron and his mecanic way ?! I don't understand this evolution.

Gingko wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Someone mentioned Black Arachnia, and I gotta say, I totally agree. In some ways she even beats out Dinobot in this. Sure it was Dinobot's whole thing, but Black Arachnia really, actually, evolved into her role. The fact that she started out as a conniving schemer and became a totally trustworthy key member of the team is some pretty interesting stuff and it didn't just happen in one episode.

Yes ! I'm glad i'm not the only one to think that.

Rhinox/Tankorr was another good one. The key here is that he fully believed in Megatron's goals after becoming Tankorr. It wasn't just brainwashing, it was him.

Yeah I was thinking of him but, it's one of the few cases were i'm not ok with the story. I remember episods of Beast Wars where Rhinox was the very one to actually really enjoy organic life and peacefull meditation. Same way otpimus will do in Beast Machine.

And then Rhinox believe Megatron and his mecanic way ?! I don't understand this evolution.

I agree with both your points Gingko. Blackarachnia is a good one, and one a good bit better the more I see people talk about. If I had written this last more recently, I would replace Sentinel with Blackarachnia. You guys are right, she really is a good one, same with Armada Starscream. Eesh, tough

I also agree with you about Rhinox. While his change of thoughts was very important and pivoting, it felt off. the change in personality was jarring, so I feel better about not including him.

I disagree with Tankor/Rhinox; it's actually my least favourite thing about Beast Machines - it's biggest problem, for me, is that the characters suddenly had completely different characters to what they had in Beast Wars just in order to work for what the writers wanted. The ambitions of Rhinox and Megatron just came completely out of nowhere and contrasted almost completely to what they were like in BW with no explanation or hint.

And this is why Tankor should be number 1:)
It's out of left field and no one could have figured it out. That makes good storytelling and suspense. Tankor was supposed to be brainwashed by Megatron, after Optimus and the crew supposedly opened his mind, we thought he switched back to Maximal, but in his dark ind clouded with conquest the the idea of him being ruler of Cybertron, continues to plot his evil plan in secret. This is good storytelling. It's dark, but I enjoyed it. In the eyes of abandoning faction, Tankor "Obliterate!" The competition.

President-prime wrote:And this is why Tankor should be number 1:)
It's out of left field and no one could have figured it out. That makes good storytelling and suspense. Tankor was supposed to be brainwashed by Megatron, after Optimus and the crew supposedly opened his mind, we thought he switched back to Maximal, but in his dark ind clouded with conquest the the idea of him being ruler of Cybertron, continues to plot his evil plan in secret. This is good storytelling. It's dark, but I enjoyed it. In the eyes of abandoning faction, Tankor "Obliterate!" The competition.

Just because it surprises you doesn't make it good storytelling. I couldn't have guessed that Rhinox would do a complete 180 on his personality, no, but I also couldn't have guessed if the entire cast suddenly turned into 1960s television sets either. A good twist is one that you don't see coming but when you look back on it, it completely makes sense that this could have happened. "It's surprising" does not excuse abandoning common sense, precedence and what is already established about the characters and the universe.

I almost want to say Megatron would be my number one but Dinobot is really good. I do remember not being too sure about Megatron when I heard about it but after reading everything that he's been in over the past month and a half to catch up with MTMTE/LL, have to say I love it. And it's not like everybody in Universe likes it either, there are many that hate either how Megatron's abandoned the Decepticon cause or that Prime and the rest of High Command didn't immediately put him to death. The story telling that's come out of Megatron's switch is some of my favorite in TF history, The Dying of the Light mainly. Don't get me wrong I also love Megatron when he wants to conquer the universe and destroy any opposition but like Ironhidensh said, I actually care about Megatron now. And Jetfire/Skyfire is probably one of the worst in my opinion.

If you're talking about impact on shows, Dinobot still takes number 1 over Tankor. Sure, Tankor affected the final third of BM series 1, and thus series 2, but Dinobot switching sides lead to the attack on the humans, which also lead to him saving them, which lead to humanity spreading out across the world and learning/evolving to defend itself, thus meaning we could help the autobots win the war against the Decepticons, thus meaning Dinobot's side switching ended up affecting the entirity of G1, Beast Wars AND Beast Machines. Now THAT is what you call influencing the story.

G1 Blitzwing was the first character to ever do it in any meaningful way, in my opinion. Definitely should've been on the list just for that reason alone.

I'll add my voice to the "Rhinox/Tankor was just plain stupid" party. It would have been one thing if the writers had shown they understood the rest of the characters, but NOBODY came out of that show looking good. The writing of that series was terrible, so terrible that it killed the G1 continuity. Had it been good, Hasbro had plans to follow up with a series in the same continuity, one that would have seen the return of Optimus Prime. Instead, we got a full-on reboot, a series that was in a whole new continuity. We may take that for granted these days, but back then, it was an unprecedented move.

So yeah, F Beast Machines and F Dan Didio not just for that, but for what he's done to DC too.

You guys are too funny. Good conversations:)

JazZeke wrote:So yeah, F Beast Machines and F Dan Didio not just for that, but for what he's done to DC too.

When you mentioned the Beast machines writers, I wanted to point out this fun factoid, but then I saw that you knew it all along. I actually met Dan once to talk to him about Beast Machines (even though he was present for his role in DC) and yeah pretty much the main storyline the show follows was the one he believed in and wanted to tell (that Cybertron was returning to its organix origins).

Anyways, I also hated the whole Tankor/Rhinox thing. Especially when you realize he isnt brainwashed and truly beieves in this, which is total madness. He is the only Beast Wars character to keep his original fully organic beast mode. The switch was just so off. It's like a movie where aliens invade earth only to realize they cant deal with Water or any other crazy Shamylan plot twist.

At least he admits being misguided in the end

D-Maximus_Prime wrote:I agree with both your points Gingko. Blackarachnia is a good one, and one a good bit better the more I see people talk about. If I had written this last more recently, I would replace Sentinel with Blackarachnia. You guys are right, she really is a good one, same with Armada Starscream. Eesh, tough

These lists are always tough. If you would have done this, then you would get the ton of movie fans (and they are out there, we have a forum full of em) saying that its crazy how you could ignore the movie verse where the whole plot of a billion dollar grossing film was about a betrayal and someone going against his own faction.

The only way to win is to go with your guts and what you feel, like that you can write the most compelling reasons for the inclusions. And this list is what you felt at the time, nothing wrong with that. There will always be that one big "DAMN!" moment where you realize you forgot a major one when reading the comments, bu the fact that you couldnt think of it before is a testament to just how it didnt resonate as much as the others to you. And that means something too.

And for the record, I too think Blackarachnia is an awesome pick but for some reason Dinobot really outweighs her. It might be because his switch is the key to all of humanity's existence.