The Energon Pub

gothsaurus wrote:This all sounds great (to us collectors).... but bottom line to a successful corporation is making money. If they can't grab the kids attention with a GIANT visual (whether a big package OR a big card backer) then they lose out to other toys on the shelves.

SOOOooooo those cards aren't going away any time soon.

I'd still love to see them switching to a resealable version like the Japanese ones. That's still a feasible possibility.

Except no parent in their right mind is buying these at $15 dollars, and the Generations line is more geared towards us than the kiddies.

orangeitis wrote:I seems to have said that oddly... What I was asking was in the Fall of Cybertron figures are on the the same size ratio as the PRID figures. Because aren't the PRID figures smaller than those lines that came out before them?

Comparing TFP Wheeljack to Generations Wheeljack... the TFP version is a tad taller, but a heck of a lot scrawnier. And there's a huge size difference in car mode.

Yeah, there's a noticeable difference. Though on the other hand, RiD had small deluxes(Car brothers, Build Team, etc). As did Beast Wars. Maybe we're just spoiled by the A/E/C toy sizes.

Yeah, but you are also talking about the days back when a Deluxe was $10 at the most, and a Mega (Voyager) was $15. That, and each figure was intricately detailed, and had loads more paint apps. I mean, RID Sideburn is almost completely covered in paint.

I'd say the FOC figure are probably more or less PRID sized, but a heck of a lot scrawnier, and $3 more expensive.

Yeah, I think I was most shocked seeing the DOTM deluxes at the convention. (I skipped that whole line.) The vehicles looked TINY next to earlier deluxes. The Takara deluxe Soundwave was a really neat toy, and unique transformation, but the car was WEEEEENSY.

It is totally noticeable that the toys are shrinking. Sad stuff. I'd rather pay a buck or two more to have them hold their size... or for Hasbro to find other ways to cut costs, like the packaging. (as we're all chiming in to support.) But you're right... I guess it boils down to parents being willing to pay the price for their kids.

I DON'T want to see them cut quality or paint apps though.

That said, I wonder if we're ever going to see those new minicons over here somehow.... but I digress.

gothsaurus wrote:It is totally noticeable that the toys are shrinking. Sad stuff. I'd rather pay a buck or two more to have them hold their size... or for Hasbro to find other ways to cut costs, like the packaging. (as we're all chiming in to support.) But you're right... I guess it boils down to parents being willing to pay the price for their kids.

Problem is, the shrinking of the figure hasn't stopped the increase in the price. The figure gets smaller while the price gets larger. It doesn't quite add up. Where are they saving money? Because they sure are charging a lot more for these smaller figures.

Lord Onixprime wrote:Except no parent in their right mind is buying these at $15 dollars, and the Generations line is more geared towards us than the kiddies.

I think you underestimate what parents do and do not buy their kids.

I think the bigger issue is unless the kids play the game(s) they aren't really going to connect with the character designs. So they're more likely to choose PRID figures over those of FOC. But, honestly, if you look around at toys, I think most parents would be happy if their kid chose one or two smaller-than-normal FOC/Generations toys over, say, a $60 video game or a $75-150 remote control robot or even the mad expensive train sets that require a million different purchases before you can really do much with them.

gothsaurus wrote:We all had the same discussion at the con regarding the awkwardly huge Mech Tech weapons. They're downsizing the toys to include an awkward, clunky brick of a weapon with the figure.

Problem is that FoC is not coming with awkward clunky brick of a weapon (at least not so far, although sideswipe seems to be pushing that...), but it is coming with smaller deluxe scale and bigger price! Moreover, the public for those figures is a little older than usual, it seems to me, since it is based on a game which recommended age is bigger than 5+

orangeitis wrote:Yeah, there's a noticeable difference. Though on the other hand, RiD had small deluxes(Car brothers, Build Team, etc). As did Beast Wars. Maybe we're just spoiled by the A/E/C toy sizes.

It's okay to have different scales in different lines. The problem is to have the scale shrinking overtime inside the same line. Image if that keep happening in the entire generations line, including the classics, not just FoC. Image Blurr, Kup, Perceptor as monster trucks near the upcoming ones...

I just wish our kids here in USA weren't duped by the dumb gimmicks and awkward oversized mech tech stuff.

Reminds me of the toy sets where they include photo cut-outs of cardboard characters... so it looks like you're getting six figures, but there's really only one included.

Little kids.... What you really want is an awesome, decent-sized figure. Or you could be getting a nice Minicon partner instead, like Japan. Pay attention! Stop grabbing at those gimmicks that shoot out a 4 inch cat claw arm. groan.

Erailea wrote:

Lord Onixprime wrote:Except no parent in their right mind is buying these at $15 dollars, and the Generations line is more geared towards us than the kiddies.

I think you underestimate what parents do and do not buy their kids.

I think the bigger issue is unless the kids play the game(s) they aren't really going to connect with the character designs. So they're more likely to choose PRID figures over those of FOC. But, honestly, if you look around at toys, I think most parents would be happy if their kid chose one or two smaller-than-normal FOC/Generations toys over, say, a $60 video game or a $75-150 remote control robot or even the mad expensive train sets that require a million different purchases before you can really do much with them.

But in the same vein, parents are much more likely to buy the $8-$10 transformer for their kid than the $15 dollar one. I don't buy that a giant flashy card can't be replaced by an equally flashy bubble insert and not still catch kids attention. I look around the the toy section and most other toys are in far smaller package. Hasbro is running an archaic packaging system with Transformers that is making higher prices that make the product less attractive to all parties; kids, parents and collectors.

gothsaurus wrote:I just wish our kids here in USA weren't duped by the dumb gimmicks and awkward oversized mech tech stuff.

I don't buy that they are. DOTM still shelf-warms my toy section, and the Powerizers are doing the very same.

Someone at Hasbro thinks gimmicks sell toys, but these last few lines are proving otherwise.

Ah, so this is how they deal with the "large number of figures for a T-rated game" thing. Jeez, they all look close to classics BB size, damned shame.

Next thing you know, Shockwave get's shortpacked and the stores all order the assortments which have five Optimus Primes in them.

Yeah, and we're GETTING a magnus.... no reason to buy an extra Prime to paint him!

I asked Aaron Archer about this at the end of BotCon on Sunday. He admitted that the smaller Deluxe size was going to continue. He said to sell a figure the size of the Armada Deluxe class would cost $20, the price of old Voyager figures.

It is what it is, guys. We collectors may be willing to pay for old-scale Deluxes, but the retailers sure aren't.

Lord Onixprime wrote:
But in the same vein, parents are much more likely to buy the $8-$10 transformer for their kid than the $15 dollar one. I don't buy that a giant flashy card can't be replaced by an equally flashy bubble insert and not still catch kids attention. I look around the the toy section and most other toys are in far smaller package. Hasbro is running an archaic packaging system with Transformers that is making higher prices that make the product less attractive to all parties; kids, parents and collectors.

I wasn't the one who brought up the bigger cards needed to attract kids ^^;; Quite frankly I think that's a farce because there are many, many toys out there that have to scale packaging's (MLP figures, for instance). Kids know where the section are and even if they don't the swarm of figures on the shelves is a clear cut "you are in such-and-such a section". Kids aren't blind.

And as for price points, in the past (at least from what I remember) Generation figures were always more expensive than the general lines (Target by me, at least, has always had Generations at $15), but now that the general lines have gone up, the price difference is rather minimal. It'll become more of a size comparison, if even that. But if your kid wants FOC Optimus over PRID cyberverse Optimus I don't think most parents are going to go "hey, he's $5 more, too bad, no." At that kind of gap it comes down to asking the kid if they're sure, but if they *really* want the FOC over the PRID I don't see many parents blowing their kids off. Not for a $5 difference. Even less if they had been looking at a PRID deluxe.

((Mind you, the above circumstance is if they were toy shopping, not the kid randomly grabbing a figure as they pass by and begging for it.))

on the bright side... they're looking about like the old 80s deluxe cars... Prowl, Ironhide, etc.

gothsaurus wrote:on the bright side... they're looking about like the old 80s deluxe cars... Prowl, Ironhide, etc.

HAHA! We've come full circle it seems.

Erailea wrote:((Mind you, the above circumstance is if they were toy shopping, not the kid randomly grabbing a figure as they pass by and begging for it.))

This is the situation I'm more referring to, and where most toys are probably bought.

I mean, as a kid there were 2 instances where I got Transformers. The first instance was because it was a birthday or Christmas, or because I had earned allowance or came into my own money in some other way, but these instances were rare and few between. Usually,as a kid, it was all about trying to convince my parent (usually my mom because she was the one going to the store) that I've been good and it really doesn't cost that much. That was where I got my transformers most of the other times that weren't my birthday or Christmas.

Everyone can probably think of many times when you tried to convince your parents in the store that it was just the right price. No way parents are going to think $15 bucks is just the right price.

Lord Onixprime wrote:I'd say the FOC figure are probably more or less PRID sized, but a heck of a lot scrawnier, and $3 more expensive.

What's this $3 you keep talking about? PRID figs are $13 at Walmart and Target and $15 at TRU. That's a $2 difference. I'd wager the MSRP is $15 and Target and Walmart are just marking them down a little to make them more attractive. So you'll probably see WFC figs for $13 at Walmart and Target as well.

Lord Onixprime wrote:Problem is, the shrinking of the figure hasn't stopped the increase in the price. The figure gets smaller while the price gets larger. It doesn't quite add up. Where are they saving money? Because they sure are charging a lot more for these smaller figures.

You answered your own question. Smaller figure=less expensive. Charging more money=higher return.

gothsaurus wrote:I just wish our kids here in USA weren't duped by the dumb gimmicks and awkward oversized mech tech stuff.

Little kids.... What you really want is an awesome, decent-sized figure. Or you could be getting a nice Minicon partner instead, like Japan. Pay attention! Stop grabbing at those gimmicks that shoot out a 4 inch cat claw arm. groan.

It seems to me that what you're saying is "I know what you kids want better than you know what you want because it's what I want!" Sure, the mechtech and gimmicky stuff is silly to us now, because we're adults, but kids eat this stuff up. And these are toys for kids. That's just the facts.

Lord Onixprime wrote:HAHA! We've come full circle it seems.

Now I am just waiting someone to blame the Nazis

I know kids love gimmicks... but I also have to hate the fact that it makes the toys smaller. They can't grasp that.

It's like asking a kid whether he want a BIG nickel or this little, thin dime. You know they'll take the nickel.... when you know the truth, you have to realize it kind of a bummer. They can't grasp the concept of value, or that the gimmick and the quality and size of the two are inversely proportional.

gothsaurus wrote:I know kids love gimmicks... but I also have to hate the fact that it makes the toys smaller. They can't grasp that.

It's like asking a kid whether he want a BIG nickel or this little, thin dime. You know they'll take the nickel.... when you know the truth, you have to realize it kind of a bummer. They can't grasp the concept of value, or that the gimmick and the quality and size of the two are inversely proportional.

Except the FoC figures have no gimmick. Their weapons aren't MechTech. Just mere accessories.

...yeah, the situation is that bad.

Figures are shrinking, paint apps are fewer and plastics are getting thinner for one primary reason. Oil prices are INCREASING and plastics and oil based paints are all made from OIL.

It's as simple as that and has nothing to do with including a gimmick gun or not including a gimmick gun.

Also, shrinking the packaging will not help, at least not by any measure above pennies as cardboard is CHEAP and so is the super thin, clear plastic used for the packaging.

The figures will continue to shrink as oil prices and the value of the US dollar get more and more out of whack.


Anyway, back on topic. I pre-ordered all 3 on BBTS. The only one I definitely don't want (and will go either into the trash bin, or more likely the parts bin) is Jazz. Never been a fan of that character, and this particular version even less so as he looks incredibly bland. Optimus will remain in vehicle mode, as I actually like the look of it, and of course Shockwave will be in bot mode proudly displayed on my shelf.

Bring on the Combaticons, I'll buy them in every color scheme !

True that. I guess most of my points have been regarding the past couple of lines... on the road to the tiny figures now, which have lost their gimmick.

At least we can all agree it shrinking toys sucks... and that we'll all be displaying Shocky in bot mode, Prime in vehicle mode. LOL.

I wonder if you can lift Jazz's chest up a bit like the old figure model. That would help this toy out a lot for me.

xyl360 wrote:
The only one I definitely don't want (and will go either into the trash bin, or more likely the parts bin) is Jazz. Never been a fan of that character, and this particular version even less so as he looks incredibly bland.

Don't do that! Blasphemy! Not even because it's a Transformer, but it's complete and utter waste. If you don't want him and don't want to deal with selling it to a collector on here at least *donate* it to a children's hospital or something in your area. There are so many places that would happily take the figure and give it to a less fortunate or sickly child.

As much as I talk tough about these figures, I know I will end up with almost every one if the game is as good as the first.

From what I saw of the game, we may ALL be buying these toys. It looked AHHHHHmazing.

That Bot wrote:[Sure, the mechtech and gimmicky stuff is silly to us now, because we're adults, but kids eat this stuff up. And these are toys for kids. That's just the facts.

The fact is that HasTak, as a big company, as you said, look first the money, they don't really care who is buying as long as their product is still selling and they are still profiting. I even doubt HasTak knows well who is buying their products, what is the share market of kids, what is the share market of collectors etc. In the end of the day they just check if profit is going up or down, if the company's market price is going up or down, they just respond to that. However, 1-) big companies sometimes also make mistakes and wrong calls (Australia? Nerf? Someone? =P) and 2-) I wonder how long the consumers (it doesn't matter if kids or not) will keep accepting prices going up and products going down. What I know is that at least in my case it has passed a long time since I bought my last transformers (no dotm here, no prime here...) and it is not because I don't try, but at the end I buy some robot damashii instead... I have no idea how many people are acting like me, but if it is happening the same with more people... is HasTak making the right calls? Well, we will eventually see...

Anyway, I understand, hard times, recession, petroleum prices going up, unemployment, but... is HasTak's current strategy, recent moves, correct? I don't know, I only know it is not buying me, FoC Shockwave is the only figure I may buy (and even this one, this only one, was being hard to buy because stores were not selling it individually...)

PS: Sorry! One DOTM! Skyhammer!
Good figure, already smaller voyager, but no ball joints for shoulders or hips, ah, miss that...

All this complaining about prices...

Look at the economy, think about inflation, the price of oil, and considuer the USD value. Things are just getting more expensive all around. TF prices have gone up since the 80s, they could never stay the same forever. Honestly $15 for a deluxe is not that bad. Target and Walmart will probably mark them down anyway. Here in Canada we've been paying $16.99 for deluxes and $29.99 for voyagers for as long as I've been collecting, since Energon, Reissues and Alternators. Rising prices suck, but it's just life. Nothing stays the same forever. As far as hobbies go, Transformers are still relatively affordable, especially if you stick to Hasbro stuff. The relative reduction in quality is more of an issue, but I think they're doing what they can. Maybe once the economy recovers we'll see more paint apps and bigger figures again. Or maybe not.

But really, in the grand scheme of things, what's an extra $2? Skip buying coffee for a day and there you go...

Yeah, same here... I've skipped all three of the movie lines, got SOME of Animated, and now am skipping the USA Prime line to get the Takara minicons instead. These new FOC figures will be the first figures I've picked up here in the USA for quite a while, actually. I hope Hasbro sticks with the classics and game figures for a while. If so, I'm on board.