The Energon Pub

[Duke of Luns]

Got this idea from the Ultimate Bumblebee thread, and I'll see if I can articulate it:

When I look at pics of older G1 toys, I see lack of articulation(when I was a kid, as long as the arms moved, it was good), but I also see something else: play value. This becomes very apparent with bigger figures, and I'll site some examples. Also, I have no movie figures yet, but pics indicate that it's still apparent.

G1 Omega Supreme vs. Energon Omega Supreme:

Now I don't have G1 Omega, but I have the Energon version. And I must say, while it's big, that's all it's got going for it. It splits into two modes, but both are pretty boring. The battleship's ok, but nothing special. It has some movable guns, couple lights and sounds, place to put the Headmaster, but really nothing else. It's too small to use with any deluxe or bigger Transformers, and there are no seats or anything for Mini-cons. The construction thing is even less intuitive. Forget for a moment that it's transformation just plain stinks, and focus on the mode itself. Sure It has a crane on it, which can be extended and has a movable "grip", but that's situated toward the back. Once again, no seats or places to put Mini-cons. All in all, a very long piece of plastic that doesn't take advantage of the size.

Compare it to G1 Omega, which was probably around the same price point. A fact: it's less posable, but it has a walking motion. It looks like it has to be dissassembled, so it loses a little bit in that area. However, in robot mode, the head can be flipped around to form another cannon, and the claw opens here as well. Heck, the claw looks BETTER than Energon Omega. Let's move onto his alt. mode. It's a rocket base, with plenty of space around it to add cannons, other figures, whatever. And the track is motorized, with a small tank, and the rocket can be detached and moved around freely. In my opinion, there is way more fun to be had with this mode than Energon Omega.

G1 Metroplex vs. Cybertron Metroplex

I don't have a anywhere near complete Metro, or Cybertron Metro, but Metroplex easily wins this match. First and formost, G1 Metroplex has a "battle station mode", with TONS of guns everywhere. He comes with a transformable mini-figure, a small tank, and another figure which is formed from leftover parts. And then we get to the base mode, with a helipad, a ramp, and plenty of room for intereaction.

Other bits and bobs(cause this is getting kinda long):

Micromaster bases, don't have any of 'em, but from the looks of them, huge, plent of ramps and runways, and they can connect! Plus, they transform into ships and rockets too.

Pretenders, Headmasters, Powermasters, Targetmasters, and the like all came with a little figure that could in most cases fit inside or attach to the vehicle in one way or another, and it didn't look akward at all(unlike Mini-cons).

There were more triple changers, and the "double agents" had a distinct "evil mode"(Punch/Counterpunch and Doubledealer), and not just a symbol/barely noticable head swap(Sideways).

Finally, every deluxe and up came with at least one gun. Most Energon Decepticons, nope, no gun, no weapon, nothing.

I gotta admit though, the Energon Autobot Deluxes are plenty fun with their ability to powerlink.

I know this was kinda long winded, and weird, but I've done the best I can to try to explain how I feel, so discuss.

[Counterpunch]

I will be interested to see if the people who routinely hate on 'gimmicks' will agree with you or not...

How would you respond to comparisons between G1 Prime and Armada Prime? Armada Prime would seemingly be superior in every way to G1 Prime based upon your Omega Supreme discussion...

(I don't have a 'side' in all of this. Honestly. I like both styles for what they are, old and new.)

[videriant]

If the question is about playability then it might not be fair to compare the same figure but look at the whole pictures and lines.

Classics has as much as or greater playability then G1 and no gimmicks. Depending on the popularity of the 2.0 we can hope and pray for leader and larger classes.

[Sloptank]

The new stuff's beter for play in my book. Knees and elbows, for example.

[Briggs]

WHen youa re a kid and all you are given is g1 optimus, the play value is awseome.

When you get older and have the choice of armada prime or someone else, g1 optimus has nothing on any new stuff!

[Dagon]

If the question is about playability then it might not be fair to compare the same figure but look at the whole pictures and lines.

Classics has as much as or greater playability then G1 and no gimmicks. Depending on the popularity of the 2.0 we can hope and pray for leader and larger classes.

I don't think you can compare entire lines, I think Duke was going about it the right way. Really, G1 had Soundwave who had both elbows and knees (for you SLoptank) and it also had Broadside (rectangular piece of plastic). Comparing similar figures really does offer the closest possible comparison.

As for Leader sized figures, long before the movie line came out with Leader class designs TF lines have always had larger than the norm figures.

As for me, I'm with Counterpunch. I like various things from various lines, old and new. I don't think that toys can become less playable. Well, if you look at the more recent McFarlane figures, they are much less playable than the old ones, but those older ones were specifically action figures whereas the newer ones are more like display pieces. I also don't think it's fair to rag on olden days manufacturing technology really.....G1 Thundercracker could have had elbows, but they didn't make him that way. GI Joes had elbows, so why not TFs? Just becuase something doesn't have an elbow doesn't mean it can't.....

[Kanyon]

This may be hard to describe for me but here goes.

While I'm up for the new articulation on the figures, but what do we get in the process? Weaker plastic to make room for the joints and balls to be used and the transformation from alt to a 45 points of articulation robot.

The G1 toys had just movable arms, the head would swivel and the knees could only bend. (bigger sized figs) Limited articulation but alot of us loved em when we saw our toys on tv and they transformed.

So while people want more figures or more movable limbs and such, I would personally prefer the G1 chars remade with somewhat better limbs, like Revoltech style but with a transformation that wont cause the plastic to stress or break.

Look at Hybrid Prime, that's a good example on how the G1s could be remade and don't need our leaders to be a 15 inch robot for "realism" Transformers were made for fantasy and imagination, not mathmatical or scientific debates on how they can transform or why someone is bigger then the other.

[Duke of Luns]

I How would you respond to comparisons between G1 Prime and Armada Prime? Armada Prime would seemingly be superior in every way to G1 Prime based upon your Omega Supreme discussion...

Actually, that came to me after I posted, and they're about even actually.

Armada Prime is a pretty big brick, but I think he's awsome(in smaller robot mode, don't like the combined one). I'm not really fond of the base mode really. It's ok, but doesn't really have enough gun enplacements or seats, and it's shaped really weird.

However, G1 Prime's trailer does open up and have roller and that little spaceship gun, and he can store one average size car inside of him. Also, you can fit Micro Machines Action Fleet Star Wars guys inside of the seats, so that's a plus .

I'm kinda shying away from posability, and focusing on "playability". A pretty posable guy(like Energon Barricade, for example) is ok, but he has no gun, and I think he's kinda boring. G1 Onslaught has a gun, and a ramp that can form a shield. In his vehicle mode, he has enough room on his "bed" to hold another combaticon. He also has a third mini-base mode, and one of the Combaticons can man the gun while in this mode. There's also a couple holes in the legs(where the pegs go when he folds up) that are perfect size for Swindle's weapons. So in my opinion, Onslaught can be used more imaginitively and is more "fun" in my opinion.

I'll admit I like having a lot of little parts that clip onto various parts of a figure that you have to take off and put back on, so maybe that's why I still have a fondness for G1.

[Deceptiwho?]

I think your imagination just dies out as u get older its not the toys fault

[Kanyon]

I think your imagination just dies out as u get older its not the toys fault

For some, it's the opposite, I'd never lose my TF imagination =P

[videriant]

Whoops. Sorry, but I had to cut my response short for lunch.

I only pointed out classics to remind ya'll not to lump the crappy playability of the movie line to all recent series.

I didn't mean to compare one entire line to another but I also don't think it's fair to compare the same named character if you're talking about general past versus present playability. For example, instead of comparing G1 Metroplex to Cybertron Metroplex, compare him to all Cybertron Leader/Supreme classes. FYI, I would love a Classics Omega Supreme.

And I don't know about anybody else but I just remember G1 Omega Supreme being a bi-atch to transform and the base mode limiting so he mostly stayed in robot mode. The fun for him came from the fact that he was one giant-towering robot and undisputed ruler of the G1 cartoon for most of the early days.

[mineralblue]

Deluxe Bonecrusher's got good articulation and I feel he's built solid like a rock for playability as well... much more playable than G1 Optimus who just kinda stands there awkwardly and stiff doing the 'robot'.

[Agent 007]

Well on a few yes but there will never be anything like the brix of G1 We've come a long way sence then. The animated toys may look crappy, but I'll admit that they look very poseable.

[Raymond101]

Beast Wars and Cybertron were pretty playable.

[i_amtrunks]

I think that the movie line has slightly less playability than the Cybertron line. G1 toys were plenty playable as well, but easily less so than most lines since.

Thats more from the toy designs than anything else.

Animated looks like they may well be the new pinnacle of "playable toys"

[Raymond101]

I think that the movie line has slightly less playability than the Cybertron line. G1 toys were plenty playable as well, but easily less so than most lines since.

Thats more from the toy designs than anything else.

Animated looks like they may well be the new pinnacle of "playable toys"

I think the movie line is a return to the classic Transformer formula: vehicle to robot and back again, with a more efficient and robotic, animated feel to it (Automorph technology). To this end it gets rid of Cyber Planet Keys, Planet Maps, Mini-cons and triple changers. A bit sad, but an admirable effort, although I love futuristic vehicles and Cybertronian designs.

In some ways it's a breath of fresh air, but I hope this doesn't stay for too long.

[Bumblethumper]

Classics has as much as or greater playability then G1 and no gimmicks. Depending on the popularity of the 2.0 we can hope and pray for leader and larger classes.

Off topic, but I expect it'll be more successful, given that the movie has brought back so many fans.

[OPTIMUS MAGNUS]

For me, newer TF's are better. I am not a MISB collector, but all of my mint g1's are ISB I have to open new Transformers and mess with em! Classics are sweet and most of the movie figures are fun.

[Omega-1]

I think playability comes down to accessories and alt mode functionality and G1 had a lot of that. I don't have a lot of the newer figures from Armada/Energon/Cybertron so I can't really compare.

A lot of people say that G1 Prime is a brick but he came with accessories; a trailer and roller and his alt mode allows him to carry other vehicles. That's what makes him playable as compared to Classics Prime who can do better poses but beyond that he doesn't do much else. Armada Prime has the super mode gimmick but he can't carry vehicles inside his trailer.

Hoist, Grapple, Constructicons, Perceptor, Blaster, Soundwave, Megatron, Shockwave all had playability because of their alt mode functionality. Even Prowl, Red Alert and Inferno had a function so even though they couldn't do much by themselves, they would be more playable in alt mode with other vehicles.

So, I don't know if G1 had more playability but they definitely had a lot of playability for being bricks.

[Auto Bot]

Articulation makes Movie toys more playable.

[Dagon]

Articulation makes Movie toys more playable.

"Playablitiy"......is that what causes people to complain constantly about Brawls' shoulder tabs and the lens head toys and all that?

[Auto Bot]

Articulation makes Movie toys more playable.

"Playablitiy"......is that what causes people to complain constantly about Brawls' shoulder tabs and the lens head toys and all that?

Yeah. For the shoulder tabs. Added articulation probably caused the necessity of the flimsy shoulder joint connection.

No. For the lens head toys. This is purely design issue. Whether they get articulation or some other gimmicks, or not, they will still be lens heads.

[Dagon]

Articulation makes Movie toys more playable.

"Playablitiy"......is that what causes people to complain constantly about Brawls' shoulder tabs and the lens head toys and all that?

Yeah. For the shoulder tabs. Added articulation probably caused the necessity of the flimsy shoulder joint connection.

No. For the lens head toys. This is purely design issue. Whether they get articulation or some other gimmicks, or not, they will still be lens heads.

'S cool. I just love it when people try to act like the movie toys ---or any toys for that matter--- are the best things ever and then list all the things that are wrong with them.
I am going to disagree with you on the shoulder tab point though, I think that's a bigger design issue than any lens head ever could be. Why would arm articulation necessitate poopy shoulder stability?

[Auto Bot]

Articulation makes Movie toys more playable.

"Playablitiy"......is that what causes people to complain constantly about Brawls' shoulder tabs and the lens head toys and all that?

Yeah. For the shoulder tabs. Added articulation probably caused the necessity of the flimsy shoulder joint connection.

No. For the lens head toys. This is purely design issue. Whether they get articulation or some other gimmicks, or not, they will still be lens heads.

'S cool. I just love it when people try to act like the movie toys ---or any toys for that matter--- are the best things ever and then list all the things that are wrong with them.
I am going to disagree with you on the shoulder tab point though, I think that's a bigger design issue than any lens head ever could be. Why would arm articulation necessitate poopy shoulder stability?

The arms could pop out from somewhere else. With a more robust joint.

[Duke of Luns]

I think playability comes down to accessories and alt mode functionality and G1 had a lot of that. I don't have a lot of the newer figures from Armada/Energon/Cybertron so I can't really compare.

A lot of people say that G1 Prime is a brick but he came with accessories; a trailer and roller and his alt mode allows him to carry other vehicles. That's what makes him playable as compared to Classics Prime who can do better poses but beyond that he doesn't do much else. Armada Prime has the super mode gimmick but he can't carry vehicles inside his trailer.

Hoist, Grapple, Constructicons, Perceptor, Blaster, Soundwave, Megatron, Shockwave all had playability because of their alt mode functionality. Even Prowl, Red Alert and Inferno had a function so even though they couldn't do much by themselves, they would be more playable in alt mode with other vehicles.

So, I don't know if G1 had more playability but they definitely had a lot of playability for being bricks.

That's exactly what I meant! Thanks for putting it into words so nicely .

I think your imagination just dies out as u get older its not the toys fault

And this is true too, nastalgia is a big factor I guess .