The Energon Pub

ZeroWolf wrote:Given the development time of toys, Terrosaur started design before Kingdom was on the shelves

Yeah, people have a hard time keeping this in mind. You can't "cobble together" a mass produced toy. Designing, prototyping, manufacturing molds and then manufacturing stock for release takes some time. If there's stock pictures, odds are the figure's been in development for many months.

AcademyofDrX wrote:

God Sunstreaker wrote:

TF-fan kev777 wrote:

God Sunstreaker wrote:I pre-ordered the kingdom deluxe wave 4 grouping on BBTS yesterday when it was listed with Pipes and Slammer. Today they changed the listing and instead of Pipes and Slammer there are secret characters listed in the place of Pipes and Slammer.

I attempted to find out what was going on. Despite the fact that Pipes and Slammer were a part of my order yesterday, BBTS won't confirm that today. Although apparently it's ok if cancel my order.

I'm pretty sure BBTS just jumped the gun using the original wave 4 case breakdown instead of the revised one that is actually being delivered. Pipes and Slammer were moved to wave 5 and replaced with Paleotrex and Tracks re-issues in wave 4. I'd cancel now.

That's an interesting point and while I can empathize with mistakes my point is different.

It's a question of moral and legal ethics. Is it morally ok or even legally ok to change someone's order? BBTS and I entered into an agreement. I pose that changing that agreement is ethically wrong and charging me for something I didn't agree to purchase is legally wrong. I also pose that ignoring their mistake and having the customer take action to correct the mistake is unethical.

Now I don't doubt that someone on Hasbro's payroll messed up it seems to me there were mistakes all around.

I'm sorry, there's nothing immoral or illegal going on here. It would have been good customer service for BBTS to notify you proactively, but that they didn't is not a moral failing and certainly doesn't qualify for any legal remedy.

I apologize that you're not getting the toy you wanted when you wanted it that everyone knew was listed an error, but if you're looking for a professional to help you with it, I would recommend a therapist before an ethicist or lawyer.

You seem very sure of yourself.

I have to ask was your answer coming from some insider knowledge at Hasbro? Do you have some perspective in retail where you empathize with a retailer?

It's interesting how your argument starts out with an apology directed at me and then implies that the only help I can get is to change my perspective. Also, implying in insult, which is unfortunate. Although this is the internet.

In a debate about morality and ethics addressing the issue's specifics would help me or anyone else understanding your position. I understand the attacking the person posing the question is the easy approach and by doing so, it makes you or others think the question itself is invalid.

So let's try again with your response and see if you can come up with something a little more useful.

Questions:
1. For what reason is a seller's position to change an products order after it's placed morally ok?
2. How is it legally ok to charge someone for what they didn't agree to?

I'm hoping to get a little more than just, this is the way things are or everyone already knew better. Those are just positions that the world is the way it is and ideals and hopes are not something to entertain too much. Now it's fine if your position is so strong that you can't open you're perspective up to question it. If you're so stringent in your beliefs, that's fine. But you can't argue a belief. If that's the case, then there's no need for you to respond.

Lastly I'd like to address your point that everyone knew what the wave was. No that seems like you specifically have insider knowledge or you believe that what you believe is the way the world is and if people disagree with you that you're wrong. It's a nice position to have from your point of few but let's break that down with simple logic.
-"everyone" knew. That implies that I am not included in everyone. This very website's news posted information on what the possibly of the wave included. BBTS was selling one entire wave. So everyone at the very least does not include me, the individuals at Seibertron.com responsible for posting the news, and the people working at BBTS that are responsible for posting products on their website. That logically invalidates the comment of "everyone"

I will entertain another post by you but please stick to addressing the questions posed above and numbered 1 and 2.

And Of course, I'm curious about more opinions and ideas from everyone. I'm intrigued about people's sense of morality and judgement.

Thanks.

Looking through the conversation, I'm a bit lost with the argument here and what you want from BBTS, even knowing now that they can't give you what you originally wanted. Would it have been more ideal for you if they said: "oops! We boobed, and used this listing of Wave 4 which is no longer the case, we've sadly had to cancel your order, here's a link to the revised wave 4 product page if you wish to order that instead"

Bare in mind that Hasbro's hands are clean from this in so much as this is a mistake. They made the business decision to re-arrange a few things, that's all.

King Kuuga wrote:

Wolfman Jake wrote:I think it also bears mentioning that these promotional pics of Terrorsaur don't have his wings transformed correctly in robot mode. They're just sticking straight out, not using any of the folding joints to tab them into the back and shorten the wingspan as on the Airazor and Skywarp uses of the mold.

Terrorsaur.jpg

The wings are clearly folded in here.

Nice find! It does look a bit better like this, but I would be ever more accepting of the large wings if they were oriented correctly (i.e., upside down). It's still a decent figure of Terrorsaur, but it could have been better with a little more effort, time, care, or whatever put into it. The paint details aren't even correct. He should have silver shoulders and thighs, red kneecaps, etc. It just feels a bit lazy...or rushed. Yes, I know development time on toys is longer than we think or appreciate, but I think sometimes we get things on a shorter than normal development cycle, and Terrorsaur maybe one of those instances.

It took a while but we now have the official images for Transformers Kingdom voyager Tigatron. Shiningstar7896 let us know about this. The images come from a listing on BBTS where you can preorder him for $33.99. He is due out October 2021, which means you could see him at retail any day now.

Listing: https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Product/ ... ils/179903

Wolfman Jake wrote:It just feels a bit lazy...or rushed.

Exactly how I feel about it. Kinda crazy that Scorponok got more love in this line than Terrorsaur.

God Sunstreaker wrote:

AcademyofDrX wrote:

God Sunstreaker wrote:

TF-fan kev777 wrote:

God Sunstreaker wrote:I pre-ordered the kingdom deluxe wave 4 grouping on BBTS yesterday when it was listed with Pipes and Slammer. Today they changed the listing and instead of Pipes and Slammer there are secret characters listed in the place of Pipes and Slammer.

I attempted to find out what was going on. Despite the fact that Pipes and Slammer were a part of my order yesterday, BBTS won't confirm that today. Although apparently it's ok if cancel my order.

I'm pretty sure BBTS just jumped the gun using the original wave 4 case breakdown instead of the revised one that is actually being delivered. Pipes and Slammer were moved to wave 5 and replaced with Paleotrex and Tracks re-issues in wave 4. I'd cancel now.

That's an interesting point and while I can empathize with mistakes my point is different.

It's a question of moral and legal ethics. Is it morally ok or even legally ok to change someone's order? BBTS and I entered into an agreement. I pose that changing that agreement is ethically wrong and charging me for something I didn't agree to purchase is legally wrong. I also pose that ignoring their mistake and having the customer take action to correct the mistake is unethical.

Now I don't doubt that someone on Hasbro's payroll messed up it seems to me there were mistakes all around.

I'm sorry, there's nothing immoral or illegal going on here. It would have been good customer service for BBTS to notify you proactively, but that they didn't is not a moral failing and certainly doesn't qualify for any legal remedy.

I apologize that you're not getting the toy you wanted when you wanted it that everyone knew was listed an error, but if you're looking for a professional to help you with it, I would recommend a therapist before an ethicist or lawyer.

...

Questions:
1. For what reason is a seller's position to change an products order after it's placed morally ok?
2. How is it legally ok to charge someone for what they didn't agree to?

...

I will entertain another post by you but please stick to addressing the questions posed above and numbered 1 and 2.

1. The listing of case contents was a mistake. As noted elsewhere in this thread, other retailers like Entertainment Earth had the correct case contents. I don't know how the listing went up in error, or why the information was wrong, but I am assuming this was a good faith attempt to open up sales on the new case. I have no reason to suspect this was an attempt to mislead customers. Mistakes happen, they are not an ethical failing in itself. They corrected the listing very quickly.

2. First, it's important to note that you had not been charged in this scenario. BBTS likely applied a temporary hold to your form of payment as a pre-authorization, but that is not an actual payment. BBTS does not collect payment until the item ships. You were not harmed in this case because you were able to cancel the order.
You may not find that convincing, so here's a more robust response. BBTS's Terms and Conditions lay out the explicit legal defense for this scenario.
https://www.bigbadtoystore.com/Help/TermsConditions

"PRODUCT DESCRIPTIONS
BigBadToyStore attempts to be as accurate as possible. However, BigBadToyStore does not warrant that product descriptions or other content of any BigBadToyStore Service is accurate, complete, reliable, current, or error-free. If a product offered by BigBadToyStore is not as described, your sole remedy is to return it in unused condition."

"PRODUCT PRICING
In the event a product is listed at an incorrect price or with incorrect information due to typographical error or error in pricing or product information received from our suppliers, BigBadToyStore shall have the right to refuse or cancel any orders placed for product listed at the incorrect price. If your credit card has already been charged for the purchase and your order is canceled, your payment method will be refunded in the amount of the charge."

This is an assumption, but it's plausible that the case contents listing was provided by their supplier. I don't have insider information to support this, but it's a reasonable conclusion since their listing matched the rumored contents when these items were first revealed months ago.

There is a common belief among certain naive consumers that a retail purchase is some kind of oath bound in blood that cannot be modified under any circumstances. Yesterday, a website glitch caused a wide range of Target products worth up to hundreds of dollars to be listed for $14.99. Target generally did not honor transactions made during that period. While false advertising laws can sometimes compel a company to honor a listed price, the intended purpose of these guidelines is to prohibit certain forms of deception, not to punish retailers for good faith mistakes. There is no universal rule that mandates a retailer delivers what was listed, certainly not that would override BBTS's own disclaimers.

If you are a literal child, then I apologize for being so snarky. Welcome to the internet, please make better posts.

Otherwise, I genuinely encourage you to consider changing your perspective on adversity. Sometimes things happen that we don't like. Sometimes this is a result of intended harm, but often it's just life. Trying to contextualize a simple website error as a legal or ethical violation against you is not a very healthy response. This isn't from some insider perspective, it's as someone who tries to enjoy life to a reasonable extent.

If this is all a bad faith attempt at silly debate, well, have fun with that.

The fact we're getting the entire season 1 Beast Wars cast by the end of next year is nothing shy of a miracle.

Apologies to anyone waiting for another G1 Optimus and tank Megatron, or the seeker from that 1 scene from the show that looked exactly like Thundercracker, but was standing next to Thundercracker so was a new character. We'll be out of your way shortly.

Who's excited for classics Starscream...with a cape?

Mistaken_Table wrote:The fact we're getting the entire season 1 Beast Wars cast by the end of next year is nothing shy of a miracle.

Apologies to anyone waiting for another G1 Optimus and tank Megatron, or the seeker from that 1 scene from the show that looked exactly like Thundercracker, but was standing next to Thundercracker so was a new character. We'll be out of your way shortly.

Who's excited for classics Starscream...with a cape?

I mean, I'm excited for all of the Beast Wars season 1 cast AND the same Starscream I bought last year with a cape added. I can want G1 retreads and other classic series and new series and new characters, they're not in opposition with each other.

I also don't think the BW cast is a miracle, it was a reasonable assumption when Kingdom leaks included 80% of that cast that the others would follow. Now if we get all of the Transmetals and the Beast Machines lineup, THAT would be a miracle.

I basically am in favor of any toy of a character that hasn't been released since T30. Now of course I have my preferences. I'd love to see updates of the entirety of the Original Transformers (1984-1992). *Action Masters as actual transforming characters are acceptable. But characters form the Japanese Continuity even more so. Then BW, then RiD, then UT. I don't need anything beyond that.

From the list of leaks thus far for 2022, it seems I'll be spending very little money on the mainline next year though, which is fine. I can save money to try and complete my *thankfully shrinking* backlog of older, very expensive, and hard to find items. But I am excited to see them, and excited for those who are happy to finally get "Character X" they've always wanted an update for.

Sorry, I'm just glad to see the 3rd ever Tigatron. And us pettier Beast Wars fans do see it as competition. I was mainly responding to:

Wolfman Jake wrote:
It just feels a bit lazy...or rushed.


Exactly how I feel about it. Kinda crazy that Scorponok got more love in this line than Terrorsaur

I hope you guys aren't saying this figure is lazy/rushed, 'cause its borderline masterpiece. Its not just another Cheetor, its blown up ~50%, given a second accessory and paint job and almost every square millimetre is remolded.

It just transforms the same, just like the 4-5 huffers we got this year (I've lost count.)

Mistaken_Table wrote:Sorry, I'm just glad to see the 3rd ever Tigatron. And us pettier Beast Wars fans do see it as competition. I was mainly responding to:

Wolfman Jake wrote:
It just feels a bit lazy...or rushed.


Exactly how I feel about it. Kinda crazy that Scorponok got more love in this line than Terrorsaur

I hope you guys aren't saying this figure is lazy/rushed, 'cause its borderline masterpiece. Its not just another Cheetor, its blown up ~50%, given a second accessory and paint job and almost every square millimetre is remolded.

It just transforms the same, just like the 4-5 huffers we got this year (I've lost count.)

Um, I think you might be mistaken about more than tables. Were you thinking Jake/Will were talking about Tigratron or Terrersour? Because I bet they would likely agree with you about Tigratron. And I can't see where any type of G1 versus BW competition even comes in when discussing only BW characters unless I'm missing someting.

Mistaken_Table wrote:Sorry, I'm just glad to see the 3rd ever Tigatron. And us pettier Beast Wars fans do see it as competition. I was mainly responding to:

Wolfman Jake wrote:
It just feels a bit lazy...or rushed.


Exactly how I feel about it. Kinda crazy that Scorponok got more love in this line than Terrorsaur

I hope you guys aren't saying this figure is lazy/rushed, 'cause its borderline masterpiece. Its not just another Cheetor, its blown up ~50%, given a second accessory and paint job and almost every square millimetre is remolded.

It just transforms the same, just like the 4-5 huffers we got this year (I've lost count.)

They were talking about Terrorsaur, not Tigatron.

Mistaken_Table wrote:The fact we're getting the entire season 1 Beast Wars cast by the end of next year is nothing shy of a miracle.

Apologies to anyone waiting for another G1 Optimus and tank Megatron, or the seeker from that 1 scene from the show that looked exactly like Thundercracker, but was standing next to Thundercracker so was a new character. We'll be out of your way shortly.

Who's excited for classics Starscream...with a cape?

I am. I did not get the original Starscream release in Earthrise, so I'm glad I can get it here with extra accessories and hand articulation.

Also, it's not Classics Starscream at all. Just because you don't care for it, does not mean other's aren't excited to get it. It's a coronation Starscream that is not at masterpiece prices.

Terrorsaur makes me even more puzzled about what the hell happened with Rhinox's headsculpt. The Terrorsaur figure may be somewhat disappointing as a whole, but the headsculpt is amazing, as it's been the case so far for all the Beast Wars characters... Except for Rhinox. Very weird. Oh well, I'm glad the rest came out great.

I think what seems most likely here with Terrorsaur is that he had to be a remold to fit the budget for the whole exclusivity deal. A shame, as he deserved his own sculpt. I do think they did the best they could with the remolding. However, that is not the case with the paint, I think they messed up their priorities a bit. Would've rather had an unpainted gun and no details in forearms and shins, in exchange for silver upper arms and thighs.

For some reason Tigatron was my favorite Maximal, perhaps due to him being a white tiger as well as a more peaceful and in tune with nature type of character. And this figure turned out really nice! I absolutely love the fact they have more articulations versus the originals which makes for some fantastic looking poses, if I were ever to buy nay BW figures Tigatron would be the one! Cheetor and Rhinox would be a close second, and always thought Blackarachnia was an interesting design. As cool looking as they are I just can't get caught up in more sublines due to such limited space, because if i know anyhting it never ends with just one or three bots and you end up having to collect the whole lineup! lol

Till-all-R1 wrote:For some reason Tigatron was my favorite Maximal, perhaps due to him being a white tiger as well as a more peaceful and in tune with nature type of character.

Same. I often say if Dinobot was Wolverine, then Tigatron was Colossus (albeit not quite as strong). But Tigatron was a character that was a strong warrior, but preferred peace. I kind of wish Dinobot and Tigatron had a bit more interaction (I think "Law of the Jungle" was one of the only times?) .

He was the breakthrough character for me. Although the original 10 characters were great in their own ways, I never really strongly identified with any one of them. I also recall when Tigatron and Airazor were first abducted mid-way through S2, I believed strongly they would be back in some form, though the prevailing consensus online was they they were boring characters that just needed to be removed. Tigerhawk was my Vindication, and I loved it! Of course they pulled the whole *gotta eliminate the strongest character* card, but still, Tigatron/Tigerhawk is my favorite BW show character to this day.

Today, on Seibertron.com: People can enjoy more than one part of the brand. Amazing!

At least tigatron has some more painted stripes on his rear animal upper legs to blend into the body in tiger mode unlike the golden disc version. Shame though because I'd only want the golden disc version and stick to MP for him.

This is an easy pass for me, but a painful one. I wanted Tigatron, and it looks like they did him justice UNTIL I see the Hasbro "dirt fetish" has hit him HARD. It's like how Hasbro sand-blasts pearly white Stormtroopers in filth. You can't even remove the dirt off Tigatron with nail polish remover without killing his stripes too.
Maybe there'll be a japanese release or something later on that fixes what Hasbro's ruined here. It's a no-buy until then.

ZeroWolf wrote:

Mistaken_Table wrote:Sorry, I'm just glad to see the 3rd ever Tigatron. And us pettier Beast Wars fans do see it as competition. I was mainly responding to:

Wolfman Jake wrote:
It just feels a bit lazy...or rushed.


Exactly how I feel about it. Kinda crazy that Scorponok got more love in this line than Terrorsaur

I hope you guys aren't saying this figure is lazy/rushed, 'cause its borderline masterpiece. Its not just another Cheetor, its blown up ~50%, given a second accessory and paint job and almost every square millimetre is remolded.

It just transforms the same, just like the 4-5 huffers we got this year (I've lost count.)

They were talking about Terrorsaur, not Tigatron.

Indeed, Will and I were bemoaning Terrorsaur. Tigatron, however, looks fantastic and is a contender for the "Mini Masterpiece" mantel. I want one yesterday!

God Sunstreaker wrote:And Of course, I'm curious about more opinions and ideas from everyone. I'm intrigued about people's sense of morality and judgement.

Thanks.

BBTS made a mistake and corrected it quickly so that you can cancel in time if you want.

If your not happy, you can call them and ask to talk to the manager.

God Sunstreaker wrote:Lastly I'd like to address your point that everyone knew what the wave was. No that seems like you specifically have insider knowledge or you believe that what you believe is the way the world is and if people disagree with you that you're wrong. It's a nice position to have from your point of few but let's break that down with simple logic.
-"everyone" knew. That implies that I am not included in everyone. This very website's news posted information on what the possibly of the wave included. BBTS was selling one entire wave. So everyone at the very least does not include me, the individuals at Seibertron.com responsible for posting the news, and the people working at BBTS that are responsible for posting products on their website. That logically invalidates the comment of "everyone"

I understand that this part was not directed at me, since I was neither who you responded to nor a member of the news team here, and I don't know that I have answers for the whole morality thing that you keep bringing up, but saying that you didn't know that the wave breakdown on BBTS was wrong because the news team didn't know/tell you seems inaccurate. The news team reported that the wave 4 contents were changing at the beginning of this month: https://www.seibertron.com/transformers ... ion/46286/
And when they newsed the listings going up online they specifically called out the BBTS ones not matching:

There are preorders for wave 4 in a few places but the case contents are not the same everywhere. BBTS, for sintance, shows Slammer and Pipes in wave 4 while Entertainment Earth shows it being the same as we found at retail recently with the following case content:

2x Paleotrex
2x TRA GEN WFC K DELUXE TRACKS
2x TRA GEN WFC K DELUXE SHADOW PANTHER
2x TRA GEN WFC K DELUXE WASPINATOR

Nobody here had any insider info, all of the info we had was publicly visible and you either missed it or misread it.

So the main complaint about Terrausaur is that he's not a voyager?
Dunno if he was as big as Dinobot, but the deluxe look like a real mini-MP and it's light years superior to the gimicky Basic original.

So for me, Terrosaur can't be more perfect and he'll be worth the extra dollars by importing him from the USA.

I really liked the old basic terrorsaur but as much as I wanted the new one to be a voyager for scale purposes and maybe pulling off more of the show look, deluxe means it goes with my other basics deluxes (Bat convoy, Airrazor, customised TR Skullcruncher Megatron).