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Nowadays, however, it is toyetic, as they were still making toys even long after the shows finished (and before Kai began). And when Kai goes, the toys will likely continue.Dead Metal wrote:DBZ isn't made to sell toys, the toys and the merchandise are based on the show, which in itself is based on a very successful manga. The show came first, the toys where just an afterthought to make more money.
With Transformers it's the other way around, the shows are made to advertise toys and not to tell a story. If the makers of Headmasters had any kind of artistic integrity they wouldn't have made the shows in the first place, because they wouldn't want to degenerate their art form for something as low as advertising toys.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Nowadays, however, it is toyetic, as they were still making toys even long after the shows finished (and before Kai began). And when Kai goes, the toys will likely continue.Dead Metal wrote:DBZ isn't made to sell toys, the toys and the merchandise are based on the show, which in itself is based on a very successful manga. The show came first, the toys where just an afterthought to make more money.
With Transformers it's the other way around, the shows are made to advertise toys and not to tell a story. If the makers of Headmasters had any kind of artistic integrity they wouldn't have made the shows in the first place, because they wouldn't want to degenerate their art form for something as low as advertising toys.
Jeep! wrote:Why do I imagine Dead Metal sounding exactly like Arnie?
Intah-wib-buls?
Blurrz wrote:10/10
Leave it to Dead Metal to have the word 'Pronz' in his signature.
I never said it did. Only that, while it may not have started out as such, it evolved into being toyetic.Dead Metal wrote:So?
that does not diminish the fact that the show came first and that the toys are simply made as a way of cashing in on the popularity of the series, which is only over due to the fact that it'S creator is sick of it, which -by the way- is artistic integrity.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:That's different. A dub (as in, a rescoring of the audio soundtrack with new voices and new dialogue) makes a work it's own entity from the original version, especially when it comes to the Transformers media. Subtitles, however, are completely different, as they are grounded in the principle of faithfully and legibly translating what is being spoken from one language to another.
Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles, however, are completely different, as they are grounded in the principle of faithfully and legibly translating what is being spoken from one language to another.
Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.Mat001 wrote:I'm sorry, but it is no different. Both change the story as originally written and in the case of the dubs, performed.
You do realize that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.Mat001 wrote:It's one thing when "The Headmasters" ignored "The Rebirth" as that fits in with your description.
That's a fallacy. The Japanese Animated dub was dubbed faithfully and accurately to the English version (sans the renaming of Bulkhead and Ironhide into "Ironhide" and "Armorhide"). The dub show zero signs of trying to fit in with the movies. It's as much tied with the movies as its American counterpart (in other words, it isn't).Mat001 wrote:But not changing gender within the same narrative structure or like with "Animated", when Takara and the showrunners tried to make it be a part of the film continuity.
With Armada and Energon, those changes were for the worse, since they were rush jobs. With Cybertron, the chnages were more tame and more creative, since the dubber seemed to have a better idea with what they were doing that time.Mat001 wrote:The Unicron Trilogy did change a lot of the story from the Takara version.
When the spoken dialog is changed, it becomes a new entity form the original. This is especially the case for the Transformers cartoon since the Universal Stream concept enables both versions to coexist within the same multiverse as two separate universes. One where everybody speaks English, and one where everybody speaks Japanese.Mat001 wrote:None of those dubs or subtitles as is the case here, retained the original spirit. It's gone on for years between Hasbro and Takara and as I understand it, it was Hasbro's call to change the subtitles. It'd be one thing if Shout did it on it's own, but they had permission from up top. What's more, what was done here is not much different from when video games with dialogue and dialogue text are adapted for English speaking countries.
Dude, the guys at FUNi are pros at this. They specialize in making accurate dubs, so it's no wonder that they subtitle tracks are similar to their dub scripts. Shout! and Hasbro, however, made deliberate changes to the subtitle script to rewrite what the characters were saying. ALPHA TRION DOES NOT SAY "LIGHT OUR DARKEST HOUR"! Having the subs say that he said that completely destroys the meaning of what he's saying.Skyfire77 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles, however, are completely different, as they are grounded in the principle of faithfully and legibly translating what is being spoken from one language to another.
ROFLMAO!
First off, no, sub translations are no more "grounded" in some pseudo-principal than dubs, since they're usually the exact same translation. Trust me, the guys at FUNImation are not laboring under any delusions that they're creating art while they're subbing Crayon Shin-Chan or DBZ.
Skyfire77 wrote:Second, iften the worst subs are the ones that try to do an exact translation. Japanese does not translate on a 1:1 basis to English, and any attempt to do so leads to things like this:
Japanese and English are simply too different, and allowances must be made for some 'wiggle room' in translations.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:You do release that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.
Sabrblade wrote:THAT is what should have been done. It is unprofessional to have done otherwise.
Sabrblade wrote:Since DBZ has been brought up a few times, take this sentence for example:
"Supaa Saiya-jin Son Goku da!"
When literally translated, it reads something like:
"Super Saiyan Son Goku I am!"
While accurate, the grammatical syntax is terrible. A more proper translation that still retains the original message would be:
"I am the Super Saiyan, Son Goku!"
Sabrblade wrote:What Hasbro has done is the equivalent of taking the original phrase and translating it as:
"Ally to good! Nightmare to you!"
Sabrblade wrote:In which the original meaning is completely lost due to some botched up new phrase being forced in for no good reason other than shallow fanwank (as is the case with these Headmasters subs).
You do release that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.
That's a fallacy. The Japanese Animated dub was dubbed faithfully and accurately to the English version (sans the renaming of Bulkhead and Ironhide into "Ironhide" and "Armorhide"). The dub show zero signs of trying to fit in with the movies. It's a much tied with the movies as its American counterpart (in other words, it isn't).
With Armada and Energon, those changes were for the worse, since they were rush jobs.
With Cybertron, the chnages were more tame and more creative, since the dubber seemed to have a better idea with what they were doing that time.
When the spoken dialog is changed, it becomes a new entity form the original. This is especially the case for the Transformers cartoon since the Universal Stream concept enables both versions to coexist within the same multiverse as two separate universes. One where everybody speaks English, and one where everybody speaks Japanese.
ALPHA TRION DOES NOT SAY "LIGHT OUR DARKEST HOUR"! Having the subs say that he said that completely destroys the meaning of what he's saying.
I have every right to state my dissatisfaction with a product that I feel needs improvement. Doing so makes me no less human than anyone who gives it blind praise.Skyfire77 wrote:In your opinion.
Hasbro paid the checks, Shout! followed their orders. Don't like it, don't buy it. This is like complaining about "Robotech" with the box set of "Macross" on your desk!
All I'll say about this is that "Saiyan" is just as acceptable for "Saiya-jin" as"Quintesson" is for "Quintessa-seijin". "Saiya-jin" as it is makes little sense in English, while it means "Saiya Person" in Japanese. Though, "Saiya Person" would kinda be too overly literal in English, so "Saiyan" works just as "Quintesson" does for "Quintessa-seijin" (or would you rather them be called "Quintessa Celestial Body People"?).Skyfire77 wrote:Actually, it should be Saiyajin in English too; trust me, I've known quite a few DBZ otaku, and it's still a sore point.
Then, prepare to read what they're not saying. I quote RK_Striker_JK_5's above:Skyfire77 wrote:Which, as the licensee, they have every right to do. If Takara wanted a "pure" release, they had every opportunity to someone else. They chose Hasbro, and obviously made no such demands. Good enough for them, good enough for me.
RK_Striker_JK_5 wrote:If I'm buying something, I wanna know damned well what they're saying. Especially subtitled material.
The thing is, this series is NOT part of Hasbro's continuity. It's Takara's. Hasbro's continuity has The Rebirth in this series' stead.Skyfire77 wrote:Hasbro's established continuity is "shallow fanwank"? That's a rather... arrogant statement.
Subtitles are but a translation of the dialogue script, not a full blown adaptation.Mat001 wrote:Who says? Is there a hard and fast rule that says this? As it is, doesn't matter when the whole thing is corporate run as opposed to studio run. Hell, look at video games that have changed the meaning of certain storylines.
They also said that Bulkhead would have Movie Ironhide's personality, and they didn't live up to that claim either. These were all stated before the show was dubbed into Japanese, so the Authorial Intent wasn't abided by.Mat001 wrote:In both Figure Ō and TV Magazine, along with Takara's marketing director, stated that the show took place before the events of the movie. Even though the show itself didn't refer to the film, that was their intent with the show.
Mat001 wrote:Doesn't matter if it was a rush job or not, the fact is that both shows made changes to the Japanese storyline. Same with "Robots In Disguise".
Mat001 wrote:Again, you fail to see that the same thing happening. Hasbro was the one that approved of those changes and had a hand it in.
Again, a dub is an adaptation, not simply a straight up translation. While I would have preferred that the dubs had been kept faithful to the originals, some of these changes were necessary to make these dubs work in Hasbro's continuity.Mat001 wrote:That's just an excuse to hide behind. The fact is that both shows made changes to the previously established material and did not do it faithfully.
The Matrix did NOT save them in that scene. The only one who benefited from it was Hot Rodimus. All the saving was done by Convoy and Rodimus Convoy (and Fortress, since he helped fight Galvatron a bit too).Mat001 wrote:All it does is make it clear that the Matrix can save them all again, whereas it's not so clear in the original subtitle.
1. While it did not come out immediately at the time, the Japanese were still aware of it and its events. The FSRLTF 2010 story pages summarized it up as the "Unicron War", filling in the blanks for kids before the FSRLTF 2010 cartoon aired.Mat001 wrote:You should also remember that the movie had not come out in Japan yet, so they didn't know the importance of the phrase. Had there been an immediate dub release, it would've been known to Toei when this was written.
And, despite some grammatical errors, these releases stayed true to the original versions as much as possible (save for a few minor things that aren't worth getting worked up over). And at the same time, they were still coherently understandable in English, as it should be.Mat001 wrote:See Madman and Metrodome. And as I noted, Takara was long since aware of this.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
RiddlerJ wrote:Each one will come with an autographed picture of Michael Bay sitting on top of a huge pile of money.
Skyfire77 wrote:Japanese and English are simply too different, and allowances must be made for some 'wiggle room' in translations.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.
Mat001 wrote:You do realize that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
If you read what else I wrote, you'd see that I said that I don't want a "literal" translation, but one that keeps the meaning of the original intact while still making sense in English. These subtitles have completely altered the meaning of the dialogue in several places.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.
sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.
Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.
What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.
Sto, I wrote that.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Mat001 wrote:You do realize that The Headmasters was made and released BEFORE The Rebirth was, right? Takara's show came first.
True, but that was done because Takara rejected Hasbro's concept for the headmasters.
So, Hasbro's concept came first.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:If you read what else I wrote, you'd see that I said that I don't want a "literal" translation, but one that keeps the meaning of the original intact while still making sense in English. These subtitles have completely altered the meaning of the dialogue in several places.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.
sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.
Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.
What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:If you read what else I wrote, you'd see that I said that I don't want a "literal" translation, but one that keeps the meaning of the original intact while still making sense in English. These subtitles have completely altered the meaning of the dialogue in several places.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Subtitles should only make us understand what is being spoken. They should not rewrite what is being spoken.
sorry, but thats just not practical for a retail product in every case.
Sometimes a literal translation is just going to be lost on the audience and ultimately hurt the product in question.
What they should do is to try as close a translation as possible.
I read the rest of what you wrote as well, I was just responded to the generalized idea that no re-writing is called for,
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Example? Specifically with The Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.
Again, that may not always be practical.There may be times when a rewrite is needed.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Example? Specifically with The Headmasters/Masterforce/Victory.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:And one need not rewrite what they say. It is okay to rephrase what they say to fit English grammar syntax, but rewriting dialogue to say something else entirely changes the meaning of what they're saying, which is uncalled for.
Again, that may not always be practical.There may be times when a rewrite is needed.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.
Okay, then how 'bout some other example?
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
Are you talking about dubbing? Cuz I'm talking about subbing.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.
Okay, then how 'bout some other example?
Are you really asking for an example?
Seriously, lets not beat around the bush, I'm sure that you, like myself, have seen plenty of Anime shows with and degree of questionably materials that border from the "odd" and gruesome to as far as the pornographic.
With out going into specifics, I can imagine the possibility of a need to make serious script changes to some projects when it comes to some cultural differences and just plain better storytelling.
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:Are you talking about dubbing? Cuz I'm talking about subbing.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Sabrblade wrote:Well, that is the topic at hand, so I figured any example might as well be form one of them.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I have no HM example, and I never claimed that there was anything within the 3 series that should or shouldnt be altered.
Okay, then how 'bout some other example?
Are you really asking for an example?
Seriously, lets not beat around the bush, I'm sure that you, like myself, have seen plenty of Anime shows with and degree of questionably materials that border from the "odd" and gruesome to as far as the pornographic.
With out going into specifics, I can imagine the possibility of a need to make serious script changes to some projects when it comes to some cultural differences and just plain better storytelling.
Plus, nowadays, people know better than to market mature anime to children. That's why we have such things as Adult Swim and the FUNimation Channel to air those on. About the only groups that still dumb down anime dubs for kids are 4Kids and Nelvana.
With subtitled release, however, those are not markets to children and are thus (supposed to be) left uncut wit hall original content intact.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
By "people" I meant "anime dubbing companies", which is why I mentioned 4Kids and Nelvana.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I'm talking about both, and "people know better nowadays"........if only that were true.These boards are full of those that are ignorant of facts casnd yet will argue till doomsday they are right.
A.K.A. Rial Vestro? A.K.A. "The Artist Formerly Known as Saber Prime"? Yep. Good times.sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Dont you remember SaberPrime?
Shadowman wrote:This is Sabrblade we're talking about. His ability to store trivial information about TV shows is downright superhuman.
Caelus wrote:My wife pointed out something interesting about the prehistoric Predacons. I said that everyone was complaining because transforming for them mostly consisted of them just standing up-right. She essentially said, 'So? That's what our ancestors did.'
Sabrblade wrote:By "people" I meant "anime dubbing companies", which is why I mentioned 4Kids and Nelvana.
A.K.A. Rial Vestro? A.K.A. "The Artist Formerly Known as Saber Prime"? Yep. Good times.
Predaprince wrote:I am very thankful to have posters like sto_vo_kor_2000 who is so energetic about improving others' understanding and enjoyment of the TF universe
Stormrider wrote:You often add interesting insights to conversations that makes the fledglings think and challenges even the sharpest minds
T-Macksimus wrote:I consider you and editor to be amongst the most "scholarly" in terms of your knowledge, demeanor and general approach
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