The Energon Pub

Loki120 wrote:

Duo Prime wrote:

Loki120 wrote:So it can't be federally funded. Turn to the private sector, I've always been a big proponent of privitization. Stop looking toward the government to solve the world's ills, it's never going to happen. Real change happens with the people.
I've said the same thing about schools, but people don't like to hear that either.

Yes, the government can provide for it's people, just as long as it's not run by greedy criminals like the current one. You can probably ask any of our members from overseas about how great their country has it with socialized medicine and the like. Privitization is going to be the death of us all, including you. Corperations only care about money, and an ass load of it to boot, so that means only a select few would ever get to be helped by those stem cells if it were privitised.
And yes, change does happen with the people, as long as they are not affraid and oppresed by the wealthy, law and government hijacking minority. "People should not fear their government, the government should fear it's people", thats how change occurs.

I couldn't agree more about the government should fear it's people, so why do you all want to hang all your hopes and integrate them so much into your lives?

Privitization is going to be the death of us all, including you.

This is perhaps the most ignorant statement I've ever heard.

Let me give you a few lessons on socialization versus privitazation. Yes, socialization seems like a dream come true, it give health care to the unprivleged masses who seemingly can't afford it. It's a good tag line to cull in the votes, especially when you a have-nothing Senator from Illinois, or a Senator who hangs all her popularity on her husband. But when it comes down to it, it gives you no choices. You are stuck with what the government says you can have. You want a catscan to look for that possible life threatening tumor in your brain? That's fine, get on the waiting list for six months, because there are a million other people ahead of you who want to cash in on their free catscan. How about that great doctor you've heard so much about. Too bad you don't live in his area, now you're stuck with the doctor that you're convinced doesn't know what he's talking about. Forget a second opinion. How about that medicine that could help you, well, that's not an option, it's not the government's list of approved medicines.
Now given the difference between that and the insurance I currently have, where I can have a catscan when it's needed, the medicines I could chose to get, and the doctors I want to see...I'll take the privitazation anyday. We'll see who suffers the worst fate.

Ignorant statement huh? "Seemingly can't afford?" That, my friend is an ignorant statement. I'm living it pal, and there are probably more people just on this board in the same position. How much does your medicien cost you? If it were socialized, it wouldn't cost a thing. Socialization means basicaly, that you can go anywhere and recieve free healthcare. I have no idea where you get this, list of approved medicines, that what privitizeation is. You're all backwards, the government doesnt approve anything, it pays for the healthcare system. The hospital is reponsible for making you well by whatever means it takes to keep you healthy. Thats paid for by the scocialization process, our tax dollars going to help our fellow Americans as well as ourselvs. Instead of private corperations gouging prices to make a profit, and whoever can't pay dies, everyone gets to be free of stupid medical debts(unnessicary ones at that). You may have the money to pay for a much needed operation, but not everyone does, so does that mean you don't care about the well being of your fellow contrymen? Your arguments sound like the broken record of the criminals who have been stealing our money and letting people die needlessly for years. Don't listen to them, they are only steering you against your own people.

Duo Prime wrote:Ignorant statement huh? "Seemingly can't afford?" That, my friend is an ignorant statement. I'm living it pal, and there are probably more people just on this board in the same position.

Ummmm, that's how the government likes to think of you. You can't afford that, vote for me and you no longer have to worry about the things in your day to day lives! Health care is expensive, there's no doubt about it. But most jobs offer it as part of a benefits package. If yours doesn't, get one that does.

How much does your medicien cost you? If it were socialized, it wouldn't cost a thing. Socialization means basicaly, that you can go anywhere and recieve free healthcare. I have no idea where you get this, list of approved medicines, that what privitizeation is.

Wrong. You're just plain wrong when you state that socialized healthcare is free, you're paying for it, along with everyone else. It's called taxes. Or do you think all that money is grown from the fantastic money tree in the treasury's back yard?

Maybe if you keep telling yourself that, it'll come true. Until then, I'll live in the real world.

You're all backwards, the government doesnt approve anything, it pays for the healthcare system. The hospital is reponsible for making you well by whatever means it takes to keep you healthy. Thats paid for by the scocialization process, our tax dollars going to help our fellow Americans as well as ourselvs.

Wrong again. First off, if you think the government is going to give you anything without approving it first, you're in deperate need of help. FYI, just try and apply for one of those other miraculous government programs like WIC and Food Stamp programs. You have to jump through hoops to just to start the process.
Second, Most hospitals are only provided a small amount of money for operations from the government - hence you right to receive care during emergency situations regardless of financial status. Most money is recieved from insurance claims. That hospital is a *gasp* a business! Egads! We can't have that!

Instead of private corperations gouging prices to make a profit, and whoever can't pay dies, everyone gets to be free of stupid medical debts(unnessicary ones at that). You may have the money to pay for a much needed operation, but not everyone does, so does that mean you don't care about the well being of your fellow contrymen?

Wrong again. Track records indicate that businesses that recieve money from government programs up their prices because now they can squeeze more money from the system. Everything from Medicaid to schools to that college university.

Your arguments sound like the broken record of the criminals who have been stealing our money and letting people die needlessly for years. Don't listen to them, they are only steering you against your own people.

Hello? Did I just step into a communist propaganda poster? Talk about a broken record.


Expanded:

Some countries who have socialized healthcare and the breat bounty of benefits that came out of it.

Great Britain -
Hope you don't have a life threatening illness

That's a long wait!

What was that about not getting approval for drugs because all they do is pay for it? That seems to be the whole problem.

Hope you have the lucky number!

I hope you don't smoke, or are overweight! Who else isn't worthy of receiving healthcare? Or are you going to say "It'll be different here!" Dream on.

More to come...

Loki120 wrote:

Duo Prime wrote:How much does your medicien cost you? If it were socialized, it wouldn't cost a thing. Socialization means basicaly, that you can go anywhere and recieve free healthcare. I have no idea where you get this, list of approved medicines, that what privitizeation is.

Wrong. You're just plain wrong when you state that socialized healthcare is free, you're paying for it, along with everyone else. It's called taxes.
Maybe if you keep telling yourself that, it'll come true. Until then, I'll live in the real world.

You're all backwards, the government doesnt approve anything, it pays for the healthcare system. The hospital is reponsible for making you well by whatever means it takes to keep you healthy. Thats paid for by the scocialization process, our tax dollars going to help our fellow Americans as well as ourselvs.

Wrong again. Most hospitals are only provided a small amount of money for operations from the government - hence you right to receive care during emergency situations regardless of financial status. Most money is recieved from insurance claims. That hospital is a *gasp* a business! Egads! We can't have that!

Instead of private corperations gouging prices to make a profit, and whoever can't pay dies, everyone gets to be free of stupid medical debts(unnessicary ones at that). You may have the money to pay for a much needed operation, but not everyone does, so does that mean you don't care about the well being of your fellow contrymen?

Wrong again. Track records indicate that businesses that recieve money from government programs up their prices because now they can squeeze more money from the system. Everything from Medicaid to schools to that college university.

Your arguments sound like the broken record of the criminals who have been stealing our money and letting people die needlessly for years. Don't listen to them, they are only steering you against your own people.

Hello? Did I just step into a communist propaganda poster? Talk about a broken record.

Thats the republican way, calling people communist propagandists, and all of that bullshit. I guess you people will never learn untill somthing terrible happens close to home. Are you finacially bennifitting from insurance company's? Whats the angle here? You pretty much sound like Ronald"aids is a faggit disease" Reagan. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, but, apparently, you don't know any better. I really don't understand the need to be against people trying to look out for everyone's interest, and not just the intrest of a small wealthy few. Ah well, this is all quite pointless, and i don't feel like arguing anymore. You'll obviously never learn until it's too late. We're headed backwards in time towards a monarchy, and will you be on the king's court?

Duo Prime wrote:Thats the republican way, calling people communist propagandists, and all of that bullshit. I guess you people will never learn untill somthing terrible happens close to home. Are you finacially bennifitting from insurance company's? Whats the angle here? You pretty much sound like Ronald"aids is a faggit disease" Reagan.

When the hell did any sort of anti-gay comments come out of posts? What have you been smoking?
Or are you one of those who doesn't like what you hear so you strike out? I mean, if you're just going to make crap up, at least you could be creative about it.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about, but, apparently, you don't know any better. I really don't understand the need to be against people trying to look out for everyone's interest, and not just the intrest of a small wealthy few. Ah well, this is all quite pointless, and i don't feel like arguing anymore. You'll obviously never learn until it's too late. We're headed backwards in time towards a monarchy, and will you be on the king's court?

Apparently you don't, i've amended my post above with links pointing out the wonders that is socialized healthcare. But obviously you don't seem to care until...what was it that you said? Oh yeah, "never learn until it's too late."

And where the hell did monarchy come up?

More wonders of the Social system...From Canada!

So much for free choice!

What was that about getting what you need when you need it?

Loki120 wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:Loki, wasn't there a post earlier in the thread that actually illustrated this whole issue is moot? That the embryos were already dead anyway, and doing the research does not, in fact, cause more unborn children to die?

Or am I missing something? If I am tell me, and don't think I'm 100% for abortion just because I support this research. I actually find abortion to be a horrible practice that is a necessary evil in some cases like rape, but I totally see where the Pro-Lifers are coming from.

But it's my understanding that this research does not in fact cause further killing, but can actually be looked at as making the best of a bad situation.

At no point did I argue otherwise, I couldn't care one way or another. scavenge human carcasses to your hearts content, that's not the arguement I was making and never indicated otherwise. I'm just sick of people thinking that all these cures are right around the corner if only those heartless bastards in Washington would solve all the world's ills by just passing this bill, when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm just advocating to stop hanging all your hopes that the government will do anything to improve your lives.
This post is moot.

Okay that makes sense.

I guess the reason many of us hinge our hopes on the government doing it is because many of us are glad our "side" is the majority in congress again and dare to hope. Federal funding would add to the funding, and the current theory goes that more funding will mean more chances to find results.

Loki120 wrote:More wonders of the Social system...From Canada!

So much for free choice!

What was that about getting what you need when you need it?

How old are you man? I did a bit of cross checking on your Capitalism Magazine (talk about propaganda), and here's what i found (minus the agenda),

First, on the case of Chaoulli v. Quebec, this is only an isolated incident, limited to...you guessd it, Quebec. Here's an excerpt: " pro-privatization groups, and much of the mainstream media are exploiting the decision - often by wildly overstating its conclusions – to promote a second tier of health care services for those who can afford to pay and qualify for them." For more take that link to the truth

http://www.sgmlaw.com/PageFactory.aspx?PageID=488

Second, in the article they quote a report from the Frontiers of Freedom Institute and Foundation, which is nothing more than a lobbyist group for Exxon Mobile, and what was that they call themselvs....oh yeah, the "antithesis" of the green movement. Real Noble!!!

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=35

The second article you put up was just another isolated incident, not reflecting the contry's medicare sysytem as a whole, mind you. They say it(The positron emission tomography or PET scan) "is widely used in other provinces and countries." Other Provinces....MEANING OTHER PLACES IN CANADA!!!

In short, they are still worlds above any sh*t system America has now. This is the land where the needs of the few are met, and the many get sick and die.

Dark Zarak wrote:

Loki120 wrote:

Dark Zarak wrote:Loki, wasn't there a post earlier in the thread that actually illustrated this whole issue is moot? That the embryos were already dead anyway, and doing the research does not, in fact, cause more unborn children to die?

Or am I missing something? If I am tell me, and don't think I'm 100% for abortion just because I support this research. I actually find abortion to be a horrible practice that is a necessary evil in some cases like rape, but I totally see where the Pro-Lifers are coming from.

But it's my understanding that this research does not in fact cause further killing, but can actually be looked at as making the best of a bad situation.

At no point did I argue otherwise, I couldn't care one way or another. scavenge human carcasses to your hearts content, that's not the arguement I was making and never indicated otherwise. I'm just sick of people thinking that all these cures are right around the corner if only those heartless bastards in Washington would solve all the world's ills by just passing this bill, when nothing could be further from the truth. I'm just advocating to stop hanging all your hopes that the government will do anything to improve your lives.
This post is moot.

Okay that makes sense.

I guess the reason many of us hinge our hopes on the government doing it is because many of us are glad our "side" is the majority in congress again and dare to hope. Federal funding would add to the funding, and the current theory goes that more funding will mean more chances to find results.

Damn straight, Dark Zarak!!!!

80% of the US dollar is lost through beauracracy when collected for taxes, the only thing you can trust the government to do is blow things up. Leave the science to the professionals. And let those business big wigs you all seem to hate put their money into it.

Just to say, an elderly relative of mine just had a triple heart attack in England, and it took her something like 4 to 5 days to get the necessary surgery. Socialism isn't what it's cracked up to be.

The Avatar of Man wrote:Just to say, an elderly relative of mine just had a triple heart attack in England, and it took her something like 4 to 5 days to get the necessary surgery. Socialism isn't what it's cracked up to be.

But at the very least, she was seen by a doctor. In America, if you have a heart attack, and you don't have the money for the surgery, you won't get it, in order to keep insurance profits at an all time high. F**K THAT!!!!

I'm almost tempted to start a thread on socialized helath care versus the privatization of health insurance, if only to help get this thread seemingly back onto its original topic.

I might just go and do that.

Anyway, there have been several messages that the current Administration has sent regarding issues of controversy: in this case, that the beliefs of a specific religious perspective should dictate policy in a secular nation. In Turkey, the National Army threatened a coup when it appeared that secularism was threatened by a conservative Islamist executive--and has in the past. All to preserve the idea of the separation of church and state. Yet here, in the United States, Christianity and its Bible are so oft used to determine policy that even proper conservatives (and, to be fair, innumerable Christians) are raising issue with the Administration's decisions on research and social welfare.

Don't get me wrong: I am not turning this into a case against Christianity. To do so would only serve to align myself with bigotry and ignorance. Rather, my point here is that the heart of this stem cell issue has not been the question over the start of a "human" and the end of "cellular matter" at all...but with the infringement of religious ideologies upon secular policy-making.

I mean, how the bloody hell else have issues such as economic reform/revitalization and education taken such a back seat to those of abortion and same-sex marriage?

Yeah, it's all really been alot of bullshit. Any rational human being would think of the welfare of his fellow man(espesially someone religious), and not just whether his, or hers, favorite company was getting ritch. F**k anyone who values the dollar over human life. Same sex marrrige is totally miniscule, compared to the idea that the human species should live on. Anyone who diagrees with same sex marrige is nothing but a hater(Decepticon).And if you disagree, well then explain your thought process, and don't use the lame excuse that the bible tells you so. It's old. We as rational thinking humans need a little more than that.

Duo Prime wrote:

The Avatar of Man wrote:Just to say, an elderly relative of mine just had a triple heart attack in England, and it took her something like 4 to 5 days to get the necessary surgery. Socialism isn't what it's cracked up to be.

But at the very least, she was seen by a doctor. In America, if you have a heart attack, and you don't have the money for the surgery, you won't get it, in order to keep insurance profits at an all time high. F**K THAT!!!!

That's crap. A hospital, that is set up to handle emergency situations, cannot deny treatment of an emergency patient based on financial need.

Yeah, it's all really been alot of bullshit. Any rational human being would think of the welfare of his fellow man(espesially someone religious), and not just whether his, or hers, favorite company was getting ritch. F**k anyone who values the dollar over human life.

I don't value the dollar over human life, and frankly I'm getting pretty sick of the accusations. What I value is keeping the government out of my home. I barely trust them to be able to run the country, I certainly don't trust them with my health.
All your assumptions that the government is going to butt out and allow you whatever you want in regards to your healthcare is absolute bunk, as evidenced by EVERY socialized healthcare in the world.

Same sex marrrige is totally miniscule, compared to the idea that the human species should live on. Anyone who diagrees with same sex marrige is nothing but a hater(Decepticon).And if you disagree, well then explain your thought process, and don't use the lame excuse that the bible tells you so. It's old. We as rational thinking humans need a little more than that.

I'm totally mystified by this link. What the hell does same-sex marriage have ANYTHING (anything at all, come on tell me) to do with socialized health care. I have a special interest in this one, so I really want to know why I've been lumped into the same catagory as gay-bashers? My record has shown that I'm against the gay-marriage ban amendment, so I want to know why I've been accused of this.

You pretty much sound like Ronald"aids is a faggit disease" Reagan.

So again, where did I ever say anything like that?

Or are you just one of those, "I don't like what I'm hearing so I'm going to call you a gay-basher for no reason."

Duo Prime wrote:Yeah, it's all really been alot of bullshit. Any rational human being would think of the welfare of his fellow man(espesially someone religious), and not just whether his, or hers, favorite company was getting ritch. F**k anyone who values the dollar over human life. Same sex marrrige is totally miniscule, compared to the idea that the human species should live on. Anyone who diagrees with same sex marrige is nothing but a hater(Decepticon).And if you disagree, well then explain your thought process, and don't use the lame excuse that the bible tells you so. It's old. We as rational thinking humans need a little more than that.

I'm not sure that you know very much on this subject moreso than you like the idea of socialized medicine. If you have ever truly been on state health insurance you're only getting a taste of what is to come with socialized medicine. There are a few points to make here:

1. Patients treated in VA hospitals as well as Medicaid Patients have higher mortality rates than those with Privatized health insurance. There are numerous reasons why this occurs, including diagnostic testing being put off because of the cost to the government.

2. The tax rate in this country will skyrocket if we actually switch to socialized healthcare. There will be no more HMO's, PPO's and Self-Payers to actually keep some relief off of the taxpayers. Look it up.

3. Hospitals are bound by federal law that they have to take a certain amount of what is called "indigent" (those that cannotafford and have no health insurance) care per month. The only thing that a hospital has to do to abide by federal law is to "provide necessary healthcare in the event of an emergency in order to stabilize a patient or unborn child." The next time you're in an Emergency Room, look around for the sign. It's there. The truth of the matter is that a hospital only has to get your vitals stable, stop you from whatever may be gushing, or if you're pregnant to stabilize you and the unborn child. They do NOT have to make you better. Being in a Stable Condition is NOT the same thing as being well.

4. Privatized healthcare is in fact a necessary evil. A free market = competition and when there is competition in the healthcare field, advances in medicine happen in leaps and bounds.

Please get your facts straight, stop talking like privatized medicine is akin to gay bashing, and learn something about how the medical system actually works before spouting off and calling someone who believes in a free market just as bad as any gay basher. Its nowhere near the same.

Duo Prime wrote:But at the very least, she was seen by a doctor. In America, if you have a heart attack, and you don't have the money for the surgery, you won't get it, in order to keep insurance profits at an all time high. F**K THAT!!!!

This is a complete lie. Surgery like that falls under "emergency care" which hospitals must perform. They just let you rack up the bill to whatever and then dump you with it when all is said and done but as long as you need it they'll do it. This "right" is guaranteed under the "Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act."

Honestly, the socialists on this board just need to stop jumping to conclusions about privatized health care because 99% of you just spout off a bunch of garbage you read on some leftie website six months ago.

Oh, and just so some of you wierdos don't get all, "But that surgery isn't emergency medical care!!!!11!!111" here is the definition of "emergency medical condition" pulled from the EMTALA statute itself:

A medical condition manifesting itself by acute symptoms of sufficient severity (including severe pain) such that the absence of immediate medical attention could reasonably be expected to result in --
placing the health of the individual (or, with respect to a pregnant woman, the health of the woman or her unborn child) in serious jeopardy,

serious impairment to bodily functions, or
serious dysfunction of any bodily organ or part, or

"With respect to a pregnant woman who is having contractions
--
that there is inadequate time to effect a safe transfer to another hospital before delivery, or
that the transfer may pose a threat to the health or safety of the woman or her unborn child."

Honestly, y'all can keep your socialized health care and y'all can also enjoy throwing half of your income into the trash (the government) for the rest of your lives. We Americans generally detest government regulation with a passion. Our nation was created with that in mind.

What y'all should really do is google "surgery wait times" and notice that in every comparison chart the U.S. is light years ahead of other nations. In fact, just looking the list of results right in front of me I basically have a laundry list of newspaper articles from Australia, Canada, and other European countries that have "Surgery wait times even longer..." in the title.

So yeah, go nuts with your bloated, broken, and incredibly slow medical system which is of enormous burden to taxpayers and offers inferior care and treatment when compared to the U.S.

By the way, have fun with this gem:

Explaining Waiting Times Variations for Elective Surgery across OECD Countries" by Luigi Siciliani and Jeremy Hurst

on the basis of that description, any chronic disease is inelligle for help in the US

there's something immoral about having money so others can suffer chronic diseases with out aid. it's like profitting off other peoples misfortune.

medicine isn't about money but helping people, perhaps the capitalist should start putting other people's health before there money.

Tammuz wrote:on the basis of that description, any chronic disease is inelligle for help in the US

there's something immoral about having money so others can suffer chronic diseases with out aid. it's like profitting off other peoples misfortune.

medicine isn't about money but helping people, perhaps the capitalist should start putting other people's health before there money.

Chronic debilitating diseases ARE treated. If a person has a chronic disease or condition that will disable them, Social Security steps in and not only provides Government Health Care (The Katie Beckett Waiver) but will provide the disabled person with a stipend of money per month.

We are not putting our money before other peoples' lives. Privatized medicine will lead to higher taxes, lower quality of health care, and a loss in the doctors and other healthcare professionals we have in the United States. Why, for one second, do you think that there are so many foreign doctors that come to the states to specialize? In a free market where healthcare is controlled by the economy, there is more of a drive to find new innovative, low-cost diagnostic devices and therapies for long and short-term illnesses.

America was founded on the basis that government should have as little control as possible, to put our lives in the governments hands goes against everything that our Founding Fathers wanted for this country. We have a right to the Pursuit of Happiness, what we do with it is of our own making.

foreighn doctors coming to country has very little to do with private vs social healthcare, the NHS is full of foreighn doctors. considering doctors get paid 4 times as much in the US as in other countries i can see why you get forieighn doctors

what % of your paycheck is your medical insurance?


i find it very amusing that you equate money with happyness. though doing so i find it odd as your countries healthcare costs are equal to a much larger fraction of your GDP compared to the UK, and your government spends a 5th more of it's revenue on Healthcare costs than ours, we have nearly as many doctors per head, and third more nurses per head, and we ourselves pay more than half as much on healthcare, yet do not seem particularily less healthy.....strange no

Tammuz wrote:what % of your paycheck is your medical insurance?

I get absolutely full coverage for everything except the most extreme procedures (like a sex change) and cosmetic surgery. On top of that I don't pay a dime and I have no co-pay for anything.

That's the Army though. On average, a person can expect to get decent health care for themselves and their children for $50-400 month depending on how much coverage they want from a private medical insurance company.

People for NHS always cry about health costs like morons because they don't understand that most health care plans through a person's employer extends beyond just that employee to encompass children and in many cases spouses. People that live in nations with NHS don't understand this principle. People that live in nations with NHS also don't understand that medical coverage is basically the status quo for every serious employer. Even Wal Mart offers medical coverage to part time workers and their children. A part time employee of Wal Mart pays a piddly $11.00 a month for full medical coverage. I do admit I have no clue if dental is covered in that.

At any rate, that's just Wal Mart in regards to part time employees. I'd rather pay $11.00 a month than give Uncle Sam an additional 10-15% of my total income.

One last note to hit is that most health insurance plans cover the children of their workers until those children are in their mid 20s. The oldest I've heard of is 27 but usually somewhere between 21 and 24 is where most health plans are.

i am well aware of company health care insurance, we do have that in the UK too, i for one get the equivalent of $200 for each night i spend in an NHS hospital, which is more than my daily take home.

it just seems odd that saying that NHS will mean more cost when the percapita spenditure on health care in the states is not quite $6k in the states, and slightly less than $2.5k in the UK.

And you know what? Casualty > ER.

Jesus Prime wrote:And you know what? Casualty > ER.

I dunno if i'd go far, while casualty has much better writers, the cast of ER are much more attractive.

Tammuz wrote:

Jesus Prime wrote:And you know what? Casualty > ER.

I dunno if i'd go far, while casualty has much better writers, the cast of ER are much more attractive.

Yeah, but if I wanted to be turned on I wouldn't watch something set in a hospital.
And no, I'm not really a big nurse fan.

Scrubs > All Medical Shows Combined