The Energon Pub

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Useing the Matrix and being made stronger proves nothing.....As I mentioned Scourge was also made stronger by the power of the Matrix.

His body was also changed.?

But you seem to be arguing that Optimus was 'not worthy,' and had no affinity for the Matrix.

How then could it make him stronger, and he unleash it's power?

MagnusPrimal wrote:I don't know. Were the circumstances the same? Was Optimus physically deformed from contact with the Matrix? He wasn't? Does that imply that the situations were the same to you?

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:The "situations" dont matter.

I think they do. Prime using the Matrix was certainly different from Scourge using it. It doesn't seem like the Matrix linked with Scourge very well.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:As you said we dont know if Prime had any physical changes from the Matrix.

And if you chose to call it "deformed" of not Scourge had a physical change from contact with the Matrix.

You don't call it deformed? With bumps and 'growths' sprouting all over his body? It looked like an allergic reaction to me.

Rodimus certainly had nothing like that on his body, and we know the Matrix altered him physically (unlike Optimus, who we aren't sure it altered).

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:There's obviously something special about Scourge because the Matrix had no effect on Galvatron when he put it inside of himself.

So this proves that its something other then "Worthiness" that determins who can use the power of the Matrix.

That may be. But I don't think Optimus was saying Magnus wasn't worthy. I still believe it makes more sense that Optimus meant he felt he wasn't worthy either when given the Matrix. Given that it's clearly shown that Optimus had an affinity for the Matrix it's obvious that he was worthy. One did not have to the the 'chosen one who would rise from the ranks to light the darkest hour' to be able to wield the Matrix.

ok this is simple. hot rod had to do something in the movie other than be massivly retarted and get prime killed no one would have bought his toy he would have been more hated than wheelie. although they probably would have sold a few to people that wanted to punish him for primes death. so he changed into a cooler character that was did something great enough that everyone for got he was a water head and got prime killed.

all this cast a shadow on a much cooler more leader material character
Ultra Magnus. i cant pass a car transporter semi to this day with out thinking of u/m. i like to think that if he had changed he would have an altered character to mimic rambo and increased in fire power so he could just move through the decepticons all the way to a climatic battle with galvatron. then taking unicron apart from the inside out
it would have been like a much longer version of primes firefight to get to meg for there final battle.

but no water head gets the matrix throughs galvitron out of the eye and then unicron just blows apart......

ultra magnus would have been a great leader proabably better than prime if only he had time to do things right now.

MagnusPrimal wrote:But you seem to be arguing that Optimus was 'not worthy,' and had no affinity for the Matrix.

How then could it make him stronger, and he unleash it's power?

No you are misunderstanding my point.

I'm saying that "Worthiness" has nothing to do with it.

Worthiness is not a factor.....that much has been proven by what we've seen.

Optimus did indeed have a "Affinity" just like Hot Rod/Rodimus Scourge and Alpha Trion must have had.

MagnusPrimal wrote:I think they do. Prime using the Matrix was certainly different from Scourge using it. It doesn't seem like the Matrix linked with Scourge very well.

True....but it still has nothing to do with the "situations" at the time.

If it were just the "situations" then how did Scourge use it at all????

MagnusPrimal wrote:You don't call it deformed? With bumps and 'growths' sprouting all over his body?

I didnt say it was or wasnt deformed.My point is simply that his body was changed by the Matrix.

MagnusPrimal wrote: It looked like an allergic reaction to me.

It did to me as well but that could have been caused by the power of the Matrix interacting with the power of Unicron.

MagnusPrimal wrote:Rodimus certainly had nothing like that on his body, and we know the Matrix altered him physically (unlike Optimus, who we aren't sure it altered).

This is true.

But its irrelevant to my point.

Aside from Optimus [who we cant be sure of] out of all the TF's to hold the Matrix and be effect by it none but Rodimus and Scourge changed at all.

MagnusPrimal wrote:That may be. But I don't think Optimus was saying Magnus wasn't worthy. I still believe it makes more sense that Optimus meant he felt he wasn't worthy either when given the Matrix.

And if you re-read my words you'll see that "Worthiness" was not the point of my statement.

The point was that Optimus knew that Magnus was not the one "phofitized" in the legend.

Optrimus knew that Magnus was not the "so called" chosen one.

MagnusPrimal wrote: Given that it's clearly shown that Optimus had an affinity for the Matrix it's obvious that he was worthy.

No ir doesnt.It meens that he had a special biological [if you can call it that] connection to the Matrix.

Worthiness is determined by action not nature and the Matrix has displayed that a persons actions has nothing to do with the TF's that can use its power.

MagnusPrimal wrote: One did not have to the the 'chosen one who would rise from the ranks to light the darkest hour' to be able to wield the Matrix.

Which is my point.The idea that only "the chosen one" can use the Matrix ia a fantasy.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote: Given that it's clearly shown that Optimus had an affinity for the Matrix it's obvious that he was worthy.

No ir doesnt.It meens that he had a special biological [if you can call it that] connection to the Matrix.

Worthiness is determined by action not nature and the Matrix has displayed that a persons actions has nothing to do with the TF's that can use its power..

Ok. I get your point now. I think we were arguing different points. Scourge could tap the power of the Matrix, and he clearly wasn't worthy. But I wonder exactly what Scourge could do with the Matrix? I'm gonna go with (based on no evidence) that he could only tap the Matrix in the most basic way, to augment his strength and firepower. He never tapped the wisdom of the Matrix, and I doubt he could 'light any darkest hour.'

MagnusPrimal wrote: One did not have to the the 'chosen one who would rise from the ranks to light the darkest hour' to be able to wield the Matrix.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Which is my point.The idea that only "the chosen one" can use the Matrix ia a fantasy.

Then what was Magnus 'not worthy' of? Or Optimus? If they're not the 'Chosen One,' that hardly makes them unworthy. Although since Prime was dying, I guess I'll let it slide.

MagnusPrimal wrote:Ok. I get your point now. I think we were arguing different points. Scourge could tap the power of the Matrix, and he clearly wasn't worthy. But I wonder exactly what Scourge could do with the Matrix? I'm gonna go with (based on no evidence) that he could only tap the Matrix in the most basic way, to augment his strength and firepower. He never tapped the wisdom of the Matrix, and I doubt he could 'light any darkest hour.'

Rodimus never really tapped the wisdom of the Matrix ether.

He seemed to be just winging it all the time he had it.

What Scourge may or may not have been able to do with the Matrix is debatable since he was never placed in a position to truly use it.

Working on the givven evidence there's more then enough reason to believe that Scourge indeed could have "lighted our darkest hour".

MagnusPrimal wrote:Then what was Magnus 'not worthy' of? Or Optimus? If they're not the 'Chosen One,' that hardly makes them unworthy. Although since Prime was dying, I guess I'll let it slide.

I still think that both felt they were not Worthy of the Matrix.

See they both put a lot of faith in the Matrix and they both thought that nether of them was the "So called chosen one".

My point is that they can feel un-worthy of the Matrix with out the Matrix needing a "Worthy" person to use it.

See unlike Thor's hammer [Marvel Comics] the Matrix has been used by those that were not worthy.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:I still think that both felt they were not Worthy of the Matrix.

See they both put a lot of faith in the Matrix and they both thought that nether of them was the "So called chosen one".

My point is that they can feel un-worthy of the Matrix with out the Matrix needing a "Worthy" person to use it.

See unlike Thor's hammer [Marvel Comics] the Matrix has been used by those that were not worthy.

I agree that they felt unworthy. I don't believe they actually were though. And I don't think that Optimus told Magnus that he, Magnus, was unworthy. I always understood that scene to mean that Optimus too felt unworthy when he received the Matrix.

MagnusPrimal wrote:
I agree that they felt unworthy. I don't believe they actually were though. And I don't think that Optimus told Magnus that he, Magnus, was unworthy. I always understood that scene to mean that Optimus too felt unworthy when he received the Matrix.

I never felt they were unworthy just that Worthiness was never a factor in who can use the Matrix.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:
I agree that they felt unworthy. I don't believe they actually were though. And I don't think that Optimus told Magnus that he, Magnus, was unworthy. I always understood that scene to mean that Optimus too felt unworthy when he received the Matrix.

I never felt they were unworthy just that Worthiness was never a factor in who can use the Matrix.

You're probably right, since Scourge could use it, and he was a creation of Unicron.

I wonder if Magnus could actually tap into the power and wisdom of the Matrix? He never actually tried that we saw when he had the Matrix in his chest. He only tried to open it and use it's power, which didn't work, since it wasn't actually at the needed time/event. We know it didn't physically change him, but did it affect him at all?

MagnusPrimal wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:
I agree that they felt unworthy. I don't believe they actually were though. And I don't think that Optimus told Magnus that he, Magnus, was unworthy. I always understood that scene to mean that Optimus too felt unworthy when he received the Matrix.

I never felt they were unworthy just that Worthiness was never a factor in who can use the Matrix.

You're probably right, since Scourge could use it, and he was a creation of Unicron.

I wonder if Magnus could actually tap into the power and wisdom of the Matrix? He never actually tried that we saw when he had the Matrix in his chest. He only tried to open it and use it's power, which didn't work, since it wasn't actually at the needed time/event. We know it didn't physically change him, but did it affect him at all?

I dont think it had an effect on Magnus.

I say this because he never claimed to be any stronger because of the Matrix.

We know that at the very least the Matrix gave Optimus a power boost in Dark Awakening.

So if Magnus was to be effected at all then he should have at leat gotten a power boost.

Well, of course, this just covers the cartoon. In the comics, the matrix DID change Optimus Prime physically. See here, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2w8_37549M&feature=user

Black Bumblebee wrote:Well, of course, this just covers the cartoon. In the comics, the matrix DID change Optimus Prime physically. See here, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2w8_37549M&feature=user

I'm not questioning the Validity of the Dreamwave books but those book were written almost 20 years after the cartoon serries.

In the original TF books from Marvel comics the Matrix did not change Optimus.

But ecepticons were able to use the Matrix more frequently.

I've said it before: Anything in the G1 cartoons is inadmissible evidence. There were so many continuity errors that anything we see in the cartoon didn't follow any logic. Scourge, Magnus, Optimus, Alpha Trion, Rodimus, Galvatron... any of them could have had the same affinity, but the writers never followed the same logic from episode to episode.

Not that that clears Magnus's name or anything, but some stuff is different in each episode of G1. There's no real cause-and-effect relationship in any of this.

Then do go away. How are we supposed to discuss what happened in the G1 cartoon without referencing the G1 cartoon?

And I really am sick of this "the G1 cartoon made no sense" rubbish. What have we got? The potentially conflicting origins of the Constructicons. Except they don't really conflict.

As far as I know, this is a public forum, so hope you don't mind if I express an opinion. You want to discuss the logic they present in the cartoon, then be my guest. But here's a discussion that involves what happens when someone is exposed to the Matrix when the cartoon doesn't give any consistent examples. Talking about Ultra Magnus's nobility is one thing, because the characterization was, for the most part, consistent (sorry, I overstated above when I said "anything"), but when you bring in what would happen when he or anyone else came in contact with the Matrix or what they did with it, how can you really know? There's just no one consistent event.

Sledge wrote:How are we supposed to discuss what happened in the G1 cartoon without referencing the G1 cartoon?

Well that's just it: how can you? You can explain all the inconsistences of what happens when someone gets the Matrix, but all you're doing is making stuff up. It might not be the same as someone else's reasons and it certainly isn't canon. The writers just didn't expect this type of close examination when they wrote the scripts. If you asked them to try to resolve why A happened in one episode while B happened in another, they'd shrug and tell you that's just how they wrote it. You can talk about it all you want, but in the end, there just is no one explanation. It's a 22-minute commerical, not Lost.

Sledge wrote:The potentially conflicting origins of the Constructicons. Except they don't really conflict.

Why not? Because you explained it away? It's just your own explanation. I'm pretty sure the writers didn't sit down and purposely come up with different origins just so we can years later stumble upon the proper story. I consider them to conflict, because we as fans just make our explanations up. If they had a chance to write a fourth origin, maybe that would have conflicted more. I'm not saying the writers are the be-all-end-all of the Transformers, but when they write the stories, they can write it any way they want. And if they wrote a fourth origin, or a time when Ultra Magnus comes into contact with the Matrix again, it could go any way.

You're entitled to express your opinion, but I fail to see what the point is when you are saying the G1 cartoon lacks sufficient consistency to draw a conclusion. It's not forwarding the discussion, is it? If you want to take the view that it's a "22 minute commercial," fine. Good for you. But please pipe down so people who want to treat it as more than that can discuss it.

And as I said, the Constructicons don't really have a conflicting origin story. The only real problem comes from Megatron's line that they "were worth the time we spent building them in these caverns." Was that meant to mean that they were new life? Probably. But if we allow that it means these bodies were newly created for pre-existing robots, the problem ceases to exist. And I gotta say, it's nowhere near the biggest contradiction I've come across in fictional history.

So, what can we gather about contact with the Matrix? That it has the ability to reformat Transformers, but does not always do so. Both Prime and Magnus were physically unchanged by carrying it, but we do know that it made Prime too strong for Hot Rod to fight. We don't know if Magnus became any stronger. Hot Rod obviously was changed. Scourge obtained great power but became disfigured. I suggest, therefore, that the Matrix typically enhances the strength of it's carrier and possess the ability to physically restructure that carrier if it perceives the need.

Excellent analysis. i always believed Ultra Magnus would be a better leader than Hot Rod. After all, hes such a pansy!

JesWal wrote:Excellent analysis. i always believed Ultra Magnus would be a better leader than Hot Rod. After all, hes such a pansy!

I don't think he'd be worse off than Rodimus, but I wouldn't call Rodimus a pansy. Magnus always did seem noble (don't know about nobler) except for his famous "I can't deal with that" line. There was even an episode that revolved around how selfless he was (well, not revolved around, but started because of) and didn't he have one of those five-minute tags at the end of the episodes completely about his nobility?

Here you go, this is why Rodimus sucks and Ultra Magnus should have had the matrix(Parental Discretion Advised).....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y

Megatron's Lapdog wrote:Here you go, this is why Rodimus sucks and Ultra Magnus should have had the matrix(Parental Discretion Advised).....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq1_6D9QS9Y

I love that vid.

Me, Grimlock! wrote:

JesWal wrote:Excellent analysis. i always believed Ultra Magnus would be a better leader than Hot Rod. After all, hes such a pansy!

I don't think he'd be worse off than Rodimus, but I wouldn't call Rodimus a pansy. Magnus always did seem noble (don't know about nobler) except for his famous "I can't deal with that" line. There was even an episode that revolved around how selfless he was (well, not revolved around, but started because of) and didn't he have one of those five-minute tags at the end of the episodes completely about his nobility?

I was just jokin. I like Hot Rod, just not Rodimus Prime. I just think the whole Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime thing was a little too deux ex machina. Plus a Dome Zero is way cooler than a Winnebago!

JesWal wrote:I just think the whole Hot Rod to Rodimus Prime thing was a little too deux ex machina.

But it was a cool way to end the movie.

Well, I thought so anyway.

"Cool" would have been if, just as Hot Rod and the other season 3 dullards were getting their afts handed to them, Sideswipe had led an attack by the other forgotten heros, taken the Matrix and become Swipimus Prime. Swipimus would then PUNCH Galvatron so hard he flies out of Unicron, use the knowledge within the Matrix to trigger Unicron's self-destruct protocol, and transform into a Lamborghini truck (not a Winnebago) and lead the Autobots to victory. Apart from Wheelie, who gets chucked in the smelting pool.

Sledge wrote:Apart from Wheelie, who gets chucked in the smelting pool.

BY Sideswipe and the other Autobots!