The Energon Pub

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

There's a few lines where they use the name Primus in conversation like we would use God but it's never mentioned as Primus is the creator of the Transformers. It's just a word that means nothing.

What would you say was Primus in Beast Wars and Beast Machines?????

I just told you.

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

There's a few lines where they use the name Primus in conversation like we would use God but it's never mentioned as Primus is the creator of the Transformers. It's just a word that means nothing.

What would you say was Primus in Beast Wars and Beast Machines?????

I just told you.

Well if it werent for the last few episodes of Beast Wars I would have agreed with you.But with the adding to the story of the "Covenant of Primus" witch is eqivelent to the Bible...both considered the words of the creator I would have to say that in both Beast shows Primus was considered their god and creator.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

There's a few lines where they use the name Primus in conversation like we would use God but it's never mentioned as Primus is the creator of the Transformers. It's just a word that means nothing.

What would you say was Primus in Beast Wars and Beast Machines?????

I just told you.

Well if it werent for the last few episodes of Beast Wars I would have agreed with you.But with the adding to the story of the "Covenant of Primus" witch is eqivelent to the Bible...both considered the words of the creator I would have to say that in both Beast shows Primus was considered their god and creator.

You mean this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_of_Primus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocNL05nHxJc

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

Damolisher wrote:How can Vector Sigma be Primuses Brain when Primus isn't in the G1 cartoon? How can Primus have anything to do with ANYTHING in the G1 cartoon when he isn't in the G1 cartoon?

What he said.

Primus was never really introduced in the cartoons till Transformers Cybertron. He originated in the comics before he ever came to be in the cartoons.

Major difference between G1 cartoons and comics is Primus doesn't exsist. The Quentessons built all the Transformers. Vector Sigma is their computer and has no conection to Primus.

Yeah but the Beast Machines show referres to them both.

There's a few lines where they use the name Primus in conversation like we would use God but it's never mentioned as Primus is the creator of the Transformers. It's just a word that means nothing.

What would you say was Primus in Beast Wars and Beast Machines?????

I just told you.

Well if it werent for the last few episodes of Beast Wars I would have agreed with you.But with the adding to the story of the "Covenant of Primus" witch is eqivelent to the Bible...both considered the words of the creator I would have to say that in both Beast shows Primus was considered their god and creator.

You mean this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covenant_of_Primus

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocNL05nHxJc

Yes that. And by the way I'm on the 2nd half of the 2nd episide that you clamied that they said that vector sigma in in the oracle.....and I cant find what you mention....where is it?????

I actully just watched Nemesis. Even in that it never mentions a God or a creator. Well unless you count Megatron's ramblings about himself being the Alpha and Omega.

And you can see Vector Sigma inside the Oracle in the first part where the little drone is throne in. The Drone allso asks "And you belive this Oracle to be Vector Sigma" whitch is probly where the OP got the idea from but Tainkox never gave an answer. We do see that Vector Sigma is inside the Oracle though.

Saber Prime wrote:I actully just watched Nemesis. Even in that it never mentions a God or a creator. Well unless you count Megatron's ramblings about himself being the Alpha and Omega.

I never said that they say it....just that its heavly implyed to the the use of Covenant of Primus was very simular to how the bible is refrance.

Saber Prime wrote:And you can see Vector Sigma inside the Oracle in the first part where the little drone is throne in. The Drone allso asks "And you belive this Oracle to be Vector Sigma" whitch is probly where the OP got the idea from but Tainkox never gave an answer. We do see that Vector Sigma is inside the Oracle though.

It looks like the Oracle is a shell program simular to those used on Rinox and Silverbolt, but with many more advanced features.I dont know if you ever notice but the room that the Oracle is in was animated to look very simular to the room that Vector Sigma was in.

Did you ever see the first Star Trek film????If you have then compair the Oracle to the outer cloud of Ve'Ger.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:I actully just watched Nemesis. Even in that it never mentions a God or a creator. Well unless you count Megatron's ramblings about himself being the Alpha and Omega.

I never said that they say it....just that its heavly implyed to the the use of Covenant of Primus was very simular to how the bible is refrance.

Point taken but still the cartoon never says Primus is the Creator till Cybertron. G1/BW/BM toon it's the Quintessons who are their creators.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:And you can see Vector Sigma inside the Oracle in the first part where the little drone is throne in. The Drone allso asks "And you belive this Oracle to be Vector Sigma" whitch is probly where the OP got the idea from but Tainkox never gave an answer. We do see that Vector Sigma is inside the Oracle though.

It looks like the Oracle is a shell program simular to those used on Rinox and Silverbolt, but with many more advanced features.I dont know if you ever notice but the room that the Oracle is in was animated to look very simular to the room that Vector Sigma was in.

Here's the original Key to Vector Sigma.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

It's not in English but you can still see it. They are verry different locations. I had allways belived Vector Sigma was simply moved some time between the G1 episode and Beast Machines.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Did you ever see the first Star Trek film????If you have then compair the Oracle to the outer cloud of Ve'Ger.

What does a Star Trek film have to do with Transformers Oracle?

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:I actully just watched Nemesis. Even in that it never mentions a God or a creator. Well unless you count Megatron's ramblings about himself being the Alpha and Omega.

I never said that they say it....just that its heavly implyed to the the use of Covenant of Primus was very simular to how the bible is refrance.

Saber Prime wrote:And you can see Vector Sigma inside the Oracle in the first part where the little drone is throne in. The Drone allso asks "And you belive this Oracle to be Vector Sigma" whitch is probly where the OP got the idea from but Tainkox never gave an answer. We do see that Vector Sigma is inside the Oracle though.

It looks like the Oracle is a shell program simular to those used on Rinox and Silverbolt, but with many more advanced features.I dont know if you ever notice but the room that the Oracle is in was animated to look very simular to the room that Vector Sigma was in.

Here's the original Key to Vector Sigma.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

It's not in English but you can still see it. They are verry different locations. I had allways belived Vector Sigma was simply moved some time between the G1 episode and Beast Machines.

What do you mean their in different locations????????There both deep within Cybertron.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:I actully just watched Nemesis. Even in that it never mentions a God or a creator. Well unless you count Megatron's ramblings about himself being the Alpha and Omega.

I never said that they say it....just that its heavly implyed to the the use of Covenant of Primus was very simular to how the bible is refrance.

Saber Prime wrote:And you can see Vector Sigma inside the Oracle in the first part where the little drone is throne in. The Drone allso asks "And you belive this Oracle to be Vector Sigma" whitch is probly where the OP got the idea from but Tainkox never gave an answer. We do see that Vector Sigma is inside the Oracle though.

It looks like the Oracle is a shell program simular to those used on Rinox and Silverbolt, but with many more advanced features.I dont know if you ever notice but the room that the Oracle is in was animated to look very simular to the room that Vector Sigma was in.

Here's the original Key to Vector Sigma.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_q ... rch=Search

It's not in English but you can still see it. They are verry different locations. I had allways belived Vector Sigma was simply moved some time between the G1 episode and Beast Machines.

What do you mean their in different locations????????There both deep within Cybertron.

And that means they're in the same location?

"Deep within Cybertron" is a preddy generic sounding location that could be anywhere between (sense I don't know Geography verry well for Cybertron I'll use Earth examples) the U.S. and China.

Sence they never give an Exact location in G1 and Beast Machines is all set in or under Cybertropilis there's still a crap load of other places "Deep within Cybertron" we never see.

Saber Prime wrote:
And that means they're in the same location?

"Deep within Cybertron" is a preddy generic sounding location that could be anywhere between (sense I don't know Geography verry well for Cybertron I'll use Earth examples) the U.S. and China.

Sence they never give an Exact location in G1 and Beast Machines is all set in or under Cybertropilis there's still a crap load of other places "Deep within Cybertron" we never see.

Fine, thats possible but you were the one that claimed that they were in different locations.....you still havent proved that point.
You also said that in the episodes you posted that they said in dialoge that the vector Sigma is in the Oracle and you were wrong about that.

So far you whaven proven any of your claimes.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:
And that means they're in the same location?

"Deep within Cybertron" is a preddy generic sounding location that could be anywhere between (sense I don't know Geography verry well for Cybertron I'll use Earth examples) the U.S. and China.

Sence they never give an Exact location in G1 and Beast Machines is all set in or under Cybertropilis there's still a crap load of other places "Deep within Cybertron" we never see.

Fine, thats possible but you were the one that claimed that they were in different locations.....you still havent proved that point.
You also said that in the episodes you posted that they said in dialoge that the vector Sigma is in the Oracle and you were wrong about that.

So far you whaven proven any of your claimes.

I proved Vector Sigma was inside the Oricale. I was wrong that they said it but they showed it so still proof.

and what the heck is whaven?

Saber Prime wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

Saber Prime wrote:
And that means they're in the same location?

"Deep within Cybertron" is a preddy generic sounding location that could be anywhere between (sense I don't know Geography verry well for Cybertron I'll use Earth examples) the U.S. and China.

Sence they never give an Exact location in G1 and Beast Machines is all set in or under Cybertropilis there's still a crap load of other places "Deep within Cybertron" we never see.

Fine, thats possible but you were the one that claimed that they were in different locations.....you still havent proved that point.
You also said that in the episodes you posted that they said in dialoge that the vector Sigma is in the Oracle and you were wrong about that.

So far you whaven proven any of your claimes.

I proved Vector Sigma was inside the Oricale. I was wrong that they said it but they showed it so still proof.

and what the heck is whaven?

I ment to say havent....and they really dont show anything that proves your point.....your claime was that vector sigma did not get turned into or upgraded into the Oracle....but vector Sigma being inside the Oracle can be seen as an upgrade much like adding memory or other hardwhaer to your pc.....because its been upgraded.

Besides like I said before...it looks like the Oracle is just a shell program like the ones used on the vehicon but with some holo-grafic upgrades amongest some other upgrades.

Guess you never saw the first Star Trek movie???

I just found something thats very interesting.....now I came up with the idea that the Oracle may be a shell program on my own but I just found on Wike [yes I know its not always reliable] that who ever posted the entree for Vector Sigma seems to be of like mind to myself.

Heres the link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Sigma

I also have had an other thought on the matter.....

One the Oracle grants Primal acsess to the Matrix.....the Matrix is inside Vector Sigma.

Two Vector Sigma is what the first Transformers life.....the location of the Oracle is where the fossil chamber was found and where the first Tecno-Organic plant life first grew.

Seem to me that its the center of the start of life on Cybertron.

Just found more information that surports my idea that the Oracle is a shell program.

In the 2nd episode of the Sparkwar 3 parter.Megatron says that he downloaded the Oracle from Primal.A shell program can be down loaded.

Here's a clip....its at about at time index 8:18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjLa4pyJY0Y

Who's argueing anything about weather or not the Oracle is a shell program?

The question was "Did Vector Sigma become the Oracle?" and my evidence does suport that they are not the same thing. Where do you see anything in there that says they are?

Fact 1: Vector Sigma is seen INSIDE the Oracle.

Fact 2: From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Sigma

it had been equipped with an external shell program known as the Oracle.

Fact 3:

the Oracle and its Vector Sigma core

allso from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Sigma

They are conected but they are not the same. Vector Sigma was not upgraded into the Oracle. The Oracle is a seperate but conected program.

If you got a new Video Card for your computer you wouldn't say "My computer upgraded into a video card" would you? That would be more like a major downgrade. You use to have a whole computer now you just have a Video Card.

The Video Card would be a seperate but conected part of your computer. They would not be the same thing.

I've never said that they weren't conected. Only that one did not become the other. They are commonly refered to as seperate things.

To give another example. Oracle (a program) is to Vector Sigma (a computer) what Windows XP (a program) is to Alienware (a computer).

Saber Prime wrote:Who's argueing anything about weather or not the Oracle is a shell program?

The question was "Did Vector Sigma become the Oracle?" and my evidence does suport that they are not the same thing. Where do you see anything in there that says they are?

Fact 1: Vector Sigma is seen INSIDE the Oracle.

Fact 2: From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Sigma

it had been equipped with an external shell program known as the Oracle.

Fact 3:

the Oracle and its Vector Sigma core

allso from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_Sigma

They are conected but they are not the same. Vector Sigma was not upgraded into the Oracle. The Oracle is a seperate but conected program.

If you got a new Video Card for your computer you wouldn't say "My computer upgraded into a video card" would you? That would be more like a major downgrade. You use to have a whole computer now you just have a Video Card.

The Video Card would be a seperate but conected part of your computer. They would not be the same thing.

I've never said that they weren't conected. Only that one did not become the other. They are commonly refered to as seperate things.

I wasnt argueing ether point.Just the fact that it could be seen as an upgrade.
And if I got a new Video Card for my computer I would say "My computer upgraded with a new video card".
Just like if I bought a new memory chip.....I would say I upgraded its memory capasity.

Its all left to the interpatation of the viewer.

Saying that its a external program still does not dictate that its not an upgrade.....you skin is an external part of your body but its still a part of you.

The shell programs that were used to created the vehicon generals werent some seperet tangible things.They were a program that was layered over the original program...merging with it.....becoming one.The Oracle program could have done the same with Vector Sigma.

The point I've been trying to make to you is not that your idea on just what the Oracle is was wrong.....its that since there's no real proff that states definetivly ether way then its up to each of us to interpet what we have seen.....and if OP choses to see it the way he posted it he's just as right as you are.
And you were wrong for telling him that he was wrong.

Personly I think its a bit of both but my theroy hasnt been proven right or wrong and nether has yours or OP's.

Saber Prime wrote:

To give another example. Oracle (a program) is to Vector Sigma (a computer) what Windows XP (a program) is to Alienware (a computer).

Funny I was about to use a simular statement ....

MAbout 5 years ago my pc was running on Windows 2000 operating system....I wanted to by the XP running system but it was way to much monny so instead I bought the upgrading edition.

Basicly its a shell program that mereges with the operating system I was running on before and gives me new features.

Its not 2 seprated programs anymore....its now 1 upgraded program.

The upgrading program I bought wouldnt have worked if I didnt have the win 2000 already instaled.And nether would have the Oracle program.
It may have been programed to mearge with Vector Sigma [with the Matrix in side it] and give it new features.

And I would also think that Vector Sigma was a computer and a program......because Alpha Trions program mereged with it in "The key to vector sigma" from the G1 toon.

So ya'll, why I gotta be "the OP"? I have a name, lol.

But seriously though, I wasn't trying to get under anyone's skin, I was just theorizing in my head, and wanted some input. Which I must say, I definitely got. I too am fond of the idea of the Oracle as a shell program, basically Windows for Vector Sigma. I think that's a pretty good description of their relationship. As for whether or not that makes them the same object, that could be endlessly debated, but if they aren't one object then they're definitely two halves of one whole.

And to revert to another trail that nobody really wandered down in this thread, what about the Matrix? Creation Matrix/Matrix of Leadership. Since Prime left it within Vector Sigma in Rebirth, would it be considered one with Vector Sigma now? And if dead bots go to the Matrix, would that make the Matrix the same as the Well of Allsparks? That might make sense because the Well is accessed via the Oracle, the OS for Vector Sigma, in which the Matrix is now located.

Thoughts? Expansion? Other ideas?
(here we go again...)

Savage wrote:So ya'll, why I gotta be "the OP"? I have a name, lol.

But seriously though, I wasn't trying to get under anyone's skin, I was just theorizing in my head, and wanted some input. Which I must say, I definitely got. I too am fond of the idea of the Oracle as a shell program, basically Windows for Vector Sigma. I think that's a pretty good description of their relationship. As for whether or not that makes them the same object, that could be endlessly debated, but if they aren't one object then they're definitely two halves of one whole.

And to revert to another trail that nobody really wandered down in this thread, what about the Matrix? Creation Matrix/Matrix of Leadership. Since Prime left it within Vector Sigma in Rebirth, would it be considered one with Vector Sigma now? And if dead bots go to the Matrix, would that make the Matrix the same as the Well of Allsparks? That might make sense because the Well is accessed via the Oracle, the OS for Vector Sigma, in which the Matrix is now located.

Thoughts? Expansion? Other ideas?
(here we go again...)

Dont worry about getting under our skin....me and saber always get into long debates and we always stay friendly.

As for your other school of thought.....I always had a theroy that when the Matrix mereged with V.S. that it created a new conection to the well of allsparks.That the 2 combined created a passege way for the Spark giving powers of V.S. to be able to create new TF live on a larger level.

Savage wrote:So ya'll, why I gotta be "the OP"? I have a name, lol.

But seriously though, I wasn't trying to get under anyone's skin, I was just theorizing in my head, and wanted some input. Which I must say, I definitely got. I too am fond of the idea of the Oracle as a shell program, basically Windows for Vector Sigma. I think that's a pretty good description of their relationship. As for whether or not that makes them the same object, that could be endlessly debated, but if they aren't one object then they're definitely two halves of one whole.

And to revert to another trail that nobody really wandered down in this thread, what about the Matrix? Creation Matrix/Matrix of Leadership. Since Prime left it within Vector Sigma in Rebirth, would it be considered one with Vector Sigma now? And if dead bots go to the Matrix, would that make the Matrix the same as the Well of Allsparks? That might make sense because the Well is accessed via the Oracle, the OS for Vector Sigma, in which the Matrix is now located.

Thoughts? Expansion? Other ideas?
(here we go again...)

OP stands for Original Poster so you gotta be the OP because you started the topic.

An other thought on your question Savage.

Its hard to come up with anything with out crossing continuities from the G1 toon and Marvels G1 comic.

But to expand on what I said earlyer maybe the merging of the Matrix and Vector Sigma with the Oracle program created a Primus like entity within its self.A life giver that it self would grow from the life experances of the sparks it created when they return to the source.

Just a thought that occurred to me: would it make more sense to consider BW/BM as being in the same continuity as the G1 comics, rather than the G1 cartoon?

Sledge wrote:Just a thought that occurred to me: would it make more sense to consider BW/BM as being in the same continuity as the G1 comics, rather than the G1 cartoon?

Maybe except that BW/BM allso have comics that are allready (I imagine) in continuity with G1 Comics. I've only seen enough of the comics to know they don't follow the series. There are characters such as Cybershark (another Maximal presumibly came to the Beast Wars with Depth Charge) who I've seen depicted in the comics but were never even mentioned in the cartoon.

BW/BM I think does take alot from both the comics and cartoon but it's considered G1 cartoon Continuity. (well to others not really to me)

This is all just guess work though. I really have no idea about anything involving the comics.

Sledge wrote:Just a thought that occurred to me: would it make more sense to consider BW/BM as being in the same continuity as the G1 comics, rather than the G1 cartoon?

I always felt that BW/BM fitted more eazly into the G1 Marvel comic continuity then it did into the G1 toon continuity.There's way to much contradicting points to really fit into the toon.The Beast shows mention Iacon,The Ark,Primus,The Nemesis, none of these terms or names were ever introduced into the G1 toon.

I always felt that at least the Beast had to be connected to a continuity that had parts of both the toon and the comic witch would meen that it was a all together differen continuity in the first place.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:The Beast shows mention Iacon,The Ark,Primus,The Nemesis, none of these terms or names were ever introduced into the G1 toon.

Actully Primus was the only term you just mentioned there was never used in G1 toon.

Iacon was the main city on Cybertron that they visted in several episodes. It's allso where Shockwave was stationed as he never came to Earth.

The Ark and The Nemesis allso were mentioned as the names of thier ships in the cartoon.

Primus is the only thing that's really different as the Quentiessons are the creators in the cartoon, Primus is the creator for the comics. Beast Wars/Machines never say who their creator is so it could go either way.