The Energon Pub

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Jesterhead wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Jesterhead wrote:

The Legend wrote:3rd party products and KOs are not the same thing. 3rd parties like Fansproject don't rip off products that Takara spent a lot of money developing, selling the same thing [occasionally with minor changes] along side Takaras product.

While they don't use the physical molds, they are still using Hasbro/TTs property.

Kinda like how HasTak uses the IP of different car companies, when they sell toy robots that transform into a not-quite VW Beetle, not-quite Lamborghinis, etc.

If Hasbro made automobiles, then I would agree with you. But they do not.

Your comparison is apples and oranges.

No, it's not. It's the (arguable) theft of IP and the (arguable) theft of IP.
I don't see how the specifics involved matter in regards to the use of another company's IP without their permission.

Exactly, theres no difference, its the same thing. Good thing you brought up the use of "not -" cars in their toys. Perfect example

I've been wondering how long TT and were Hasbro going to just turn a blind eye to these kind of products.

They do fill a lot of gaps in the market and have been great for collectors but ripping of other people's products is illegal. Okay, in the case of Fansproject CIty Commander, Protector and lots of the accessory/head sets they have probably encouraged people to buy the original HasTak figures but in the case of some, igear especially, they have just flat out copied the designs and molds and are just KO's.

I wonder if this is going to be just a slap on the wrist for some or the first domino in a long line that leads to 3rd party stuff getting significantly cut back/harder to find/stopped.

Rated X wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

Rated X wrote:Takara is basically saying they want to be the only player in the game. It don’t work that way. Lebron cant win alone. Wade gotta hit a few shots.Bosh gotta hit a few shots. Maybe all the companies that make transformable robots can never work as a team, but their figures that sit on my shelf make a great team together side by side.

That is exactly what they're saying. They have every right to say that they want to be the only player in the game with these products because it's their intellectual property that they created. They have an right to protect their brand, their products and their intellectual ideas. These 3rd party companies aren't making generic transforming robot toys. They're making products that directly homage the characters Hasbro and Takara Tomy own/create/make. We wouldn't have as great of an interest in these 3rd party products if they didn't resemble Transformers characters.

If Hasbro doesn't want to make a Springer figure in the Classics style to fill a "whole in our collection(s)", then that's up to them to decide which products they want to bring to the market. It should not be up to 3rd party companies to determine which characters should be brought to the market.

Hey Ryan,

You know I got nothing but respect for you my friend, but I bet you own a Fansproject Defender. If you do than you are just like me, tired of waiting for Hasbro/Takara to fill that gap in your classics collection. I’m not saying you didn’t believe in Hasbro/Takara would fill that void, but after Botcon and Target Springer you saw that Fansproject Defender does a better job of filling that void. I feel the same way. And anybody who does not is still holding out, waiting for that “official” version. I hope they got plenty of time on their hands…

I have the one that FansProject mailed me to photograph for a gallery on Seibertron.com.

Ryan, if you feel that strongly about it, I'd gladly pay you original price for the FansProject releases they sent to ya. I mean, you know, consider it charity for the unfortunate starving folks at HasTak.


edit in response to comment below:

Skyfire-5 wrote:Ryan, if you feel that strongly about it, I'd gladly pay you original price for the FansProject releases they sent to ya. I mean, you know, consider it charity for the unfortunate starving folks at HasTak.

Shame on you for trying to make the owner of this site complicit in dealing rogue toys. Ryan, I'll do one better; I'll take them for free.

Andrius wrote:

Skyfire-5 wrote:Ryan, if you feel that strongly about it, I'd gladly pay you original price for the FansProject releases they sent to ya. I mean, you know, consider it charity for the unfortunate starving folks at HasTak.

Shame on you for trying to make the owner of this site complicit in dealing rogue toys. Ryan, I'll do one better; I'll take them for free.

They're in their wrights to ban them selling anything that contains copyrighted names and appearances.
Otherwise you could easily dispute it. I think Fansproject is too careful for this to affect them.

Banning an upgrade kit seems incredibly stupid though. They don't have an affect on sales at all, in fact they usually improve them if anything. Someone must have their heads up their arses if they're going after things like this instead of actual knock-offs.

Another way to look at it is from a competition standpoint.

Some manufacturers will offer retailers special deals if they deal only exclusively with them. Hasbro's done it numerous times.

An even better example is Coke and Pepsi. Not sure what other cinemas are like but we pretty much have two major cinema groups in Australia. One only deals with Coke, the only deals with Pepsi.

KFC only deal with Pepsi products, McDonald's only deal with Coke products.

TakaraTomy are telling these guys, you only deal with us. Does anyone know if they offered an incentive or not hmmmmm?

Burn wrote:Another way to look at it is from a competition standpoint.

Some manufacturers will offer retailers special deals if they deal only exclusively with them. Hasbro's done it numerous times.

An even better example is Coke and Pepsi. Not sure what other cinemas are like but we pretty much have two major cinema groups in Australia. One only deals with Coke, the only deals with Pepsi.

KFC only deal with Pepsi products, McDonald's only deal with Coke products.

TakaraTomy are telling these guys, you only deal with us. Does anyone know if they offered an incentive or not hmmmmm?

Not even a comparison. The "cinemas"/movie theaters make a deal with Coke and/or Pepsi to sell those company's products in their theaters. 100% different than this situation with 3rd party products and Takara tomy. The movie theaters aren't infringing on Pepsi or Coke's intellectual property.

The Legend wrote:

Blackstreak wrote:Aw, are the big-wig companies getting ass-hurt over 3rd party customs? Then maybe they should produce better stuff.

The best stuff they've spent thousands producing is being blatantly copied and sold at treble the price of what their products are retailing for. They're trying to cater for fans without flooding the market with 3-4 versions of the same mould at once. Sure there are fans that want a set of 3 seekers on pegs at once but for kids and parents looking at the same toy in all but colour they will not likely buy more than one.

how soon we forget:

JRFitzpatrick7 wrote:

The Legend wrote:

Blackstreak wrote:Aw, are the big-wig companies getting ass-hurt over 3rd party customs? Then maybe they should produce better stuff.

The best stuff they've spent thousands producing is being blatantly copied and sold at treble the price of what their products are retailing for. They're trying to cater for fans without flooding the market with 3-4 versions of the same mould at once. Sure there are fans that want a set of 3 seekers on pegs at once but for kids and parents looking at the same toy in all but colour they will not likely buy more than one.

how soon we forget:

My point exactly. Hasbro took 7 years to release a complete seekers set, Takara 3 years. As far as I remember each figure sold well and didn't sit on a shelf or boxed in a warehouse for years. If they'd released 6 of almost the same figure [from a kid/parent perspective] would they have sold as well? I very much doubt it. And yes I'm aware that they were released as a group 25 years ago but that was with a current supporting media.
As you have shown as an example Hasbro has been flooding the market with slight repaints and remoulds of Bumblebees and even with supporting media they shelfwarm.

It would actually be dumb for HasTak to not go after these companies. Some people here have obviously never done any creative work in their life.

The Legend wrote:My point exactly. Hasbro took 7 years to release a complete seekers set, Takara 3 years.

Let's not exaggerate or get our facts incorrect. Classics Starscream came out in October or November 2006. Generations Thundercracker came out in March 2011. Not even 4.5 years to come out with 6 different versions of the same base mold. Though if you count the BotCon 2007 set, it took about 9 months.

Takara was within 12 months of releasing their Henkei Seeker molds. Maybe less.

Surely this is just a case of Takara flexing its corporate muscle in a vein attempt to gain some kind of authority over the whole 'unofficial' TF market.

MINDVVIPE wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Jesterhead wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:

Jesterhead wrote:

The Legend wrote:3rd party products and KOs are not the same thing. 3rd parties like Fansproject don't rip off products that Takara spent a lot of money developing, selling the same thing [occasionally with minor changes] along side Takaras product.

While they don't use the physical molds, they are still using Hasbro/TTs property.

Kinda like how HasTak uses the IP of different car companies, when they sell toy robots that transform into a not-quite VW Beetle, not-quite Lamborghinis, etc.

If Hasbro made automobiles, then I would agree with you. But they do not.

Your comparison is apples and oranges.

No, it's not. It's the (arguable) theft of IP and the (arguable) theft of IP.
I don't see how the specifics involved matter in regards to the use of another company's IP without their permission.

Exactly, theres no difference, its the same thing. Good thing you brought up the use of "not -" cars in their toys. Perfect example

The designers for RID Sideburn did get Hasbro / Takara in trouble back in the day for completely ripping off the alt. mode without permission.

I suppose it is hippocritical for Takara to turn around and do the same to 3rd party guys. However, it's still well within their rights to do so.

Seibertron wrote:

The Legend wrote:My point exactly. Hasbro took 7 years to release a complete seekers set, Takara 3 years.

Let's not exaggerate or get our facts incorrect. Classics Starscream came out in October or November 2006. Generations Thundercracker came out in March 2011. Not even 4.5 years to come out with 6 different versions of the same base mold. Though if you count the BotCon 2007 set, it took about 9 months.

Takara was within 12 months of releasing their Henkei Seeker molds. Maybe less.

Add Acid Storm to that and you have 7 of the same mold.

MagnusPrimal wrote:No, it's not. It's the (arguable) theft of IP and the (arguable) theft of IP.
I don't see how the specifics involved matter in regards to the use of another company's IP without their permission.

If we are dealing in black and whites with individual example, then yes.

But, Hasbro/TT are having their toys ripped off to make more toys. While Lamborghini is having their cars ripped off to make toys. Hasbro doesn't compete with Lamborghini for sales of the same thing.

Also, these 3rd party groups are basing %100 of their sales off of Hasbro/TTs IP. Hasbro/TT gets licenses to produce replica alt-modes when applicable (Binaltech, Alterniy, Movie-verse).

One is a lot more offensive than the other.

Anyone else noticed how nothing has happened yet?

I mean, like...nothing.

We're all getting worked up and the spoon hasn't even been pulled from our mouths yet. Did BBTS or TFSource pull down products? No. Did they just recently list new iGear products? Yes. Have we heard any rumblings from any other site, other than the one mentioned in someone's email? No.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

"But that's me, I could be wrong, maybe it's a terrible tragedy."
"No, it's just stuff."
"Well, we could lose a lot of versatile solutions for a modern life."
"****, you're right. "

Seibertron wrote:

Rated X wrote:

Seibertron wrote:

Rated X wrote:Takara is basically saying they want to be the only player in the game. It don’t work that way. Lebron cant win alone. Wade gotta hit a few shots.Bosh gotta hit a few shots. Maybe all the companies that make transformable robots can never work as a team, but their figures that sit on my shelf make a great team together side by side.

That is exactly what they're saying. They have every right to say that they want to be the only player in the game with these products because it's their intellectual property that they created. They have an right to protect their brand, their products and their intellectual ideas. These 3rd party companies aren't making generic transforming robot toys. They're making products that directly homage the characters Hasbro and Takara Tomy own/create/make. We wouldn't have as great of an interest in these 3rd party products if they didn't resemble Transformers characters.

If Hasbro doesn't want to make a Springer figure in the Classics style to fill a "whole in our collection(s)", then that's up to them to decide which products they want to bring to the market. It should not be up to 3rd party companies to determine which characters should be brought to the market.

Hey Ryan,

You know I got nothing but respect for you my friend, but I bet you own a Fansproject Defender. If you do than you are just like me, tired of waiting for Hasbro/Takara to fill that gap in your classics collection. I’m not saying you didn’t believe in Hasbro/Takara would fill that void, but after Botcon and Target Springer you saw that Fansproject Defender does a better job of filling that void. I feel the same way. And anybody who does not is still holding out, waiting for that “official” version. I hope they got plenty of time on their hands…

I have the one that FansProject mailed me to photograph for a gallery on Seibertron.com.

Theres nothing wrong with that. Not only are you in possession of a Defender, but you didnt have to pay money to aqquire one. By photographing it you are promoting it. And by the way it was your beautiful gallery that won me over to buy a Defender of my own.

Let's say that Has/Tak was successful in stopping 3rd parties at the retail level by flexing their muscles at sites that sell their products. They could just open their own stores independently like igear does. It would be a pain for us to order stuff that way and much more expensive with over seas shipping but it could be done.

have they been to a kmart or walmart recently? theyre selling transforming robots that bear more than a passing resemblance to movie figures.ratchet,bee and a few others ive seen as recently as this week. isnt that a bigger piece of theyre pie than us collectors?

they like to say that collectors make up a small % of their sales but if they come stateside with this b.s. it will confirm for me at least what ive suspected for a long time and that is we buy alot more tf merchandise than we realize.

how about this hastak instead of r&d into giving bb the same damn vehicle mode and a slightly different transformation reimagine some old figures that have had no love in a couple of decades combiners not pcc, some base formers not a tf3 ship that just folds open, a magnus with armor, if you think kids wouldnt snatch these up you need a new marketing/management team.

alternator77 wrote:have they been to a kmart or walmart recently? theyre selling transforming robots that bear more than a passing resemblance to movie figures.ratchet,bee and a few others ive seen as recently as this week. isnt that a bigger piece of theyre pie than us collectors?

they like to say that collectors make up a small % of their sales but if they come stateside with this b.s. it will confirm for me at least what ive suspected for a long time and that is we buy alot more tf merchandise than we realize.

how about this hastak instead of r&d into giving bb the same damn vehicle mode and a slightly different transformation reimagine some old figures that have had no love in a couple of decades combiners not pcc, some base formers not a tf3 ship that just folds open, a magnus with armor, if you think kids wouldnt snatch these up you need a new marketing/management team.

Well said!! This makes sense.

Don't get me wrong, now- I understand them wanting to go after I Gear due to the fact of the Coneheads, but the other companies such as perfect effect, I don't get, PLUS, as said before, the K.O.s!!! I can remember last year seeing tons of K.O. Superions and Devastators in Easter baskets surprisingly flying off the shelves. These were exact molds of the original with only slight difference in color. That with what the k.o.s of today are having nothing said about. Yet 3rd party companies are being attacked now just for building transforming robots that are no where near the same mold.

1stDestron wrote:I have close to 400 True Takara/Hasbro/Tomy Transformers. I just happen to be 10 years old when they were released in the U.S. and have been an avid fan since. I wonder how may Transformers they sold just because a 3rd party company sold some add on parts, Ive spent at least $500 last year alone for that reason only, on bots I would have passed up otherwise because of the lack of imagination on the designers part at Takara. If you want to beat them Takara, BUILD BETTER BOTS! We want bots that look like the artwork we remember, you know, the cartoon {30 minute commercial} to sell us you plastic!
I dont condone exact ripoffs of Takara's rights, but if 3rd parties are sued for infringement because they make add ons you will lose me and many others like me. Why dont car company's sue bodykit and accesories makers? Because it makes them money.....Wake Up!

You raise a good point. I ended up buying Classics Magnus and Bruticus because of the add on sets that FansProject made. I wouldn't have bothered buying them otherwise.

Counterpunch wrote:Anyone else noticed how nothing has happened yet?

I mean, like...nothing.

We're all getting worked up and the spoon hasn't even been pulled from our mouths yet. Did BBTS or TFSource pull down products? No. Did they just recently list new iGear products? Yes. Have we heard any rumblings from any other site, other than the one mentioned in someone's email? No.

Not. Gonna. Happen.

"But that's me, I could be wrong, maybe it's a terrible tragedy."
"No, it's just stuff."
"Well, we could lose a lot of versatile solutions for a modern life."
**** you're right. "

You must have forgot that you're dealing with the emotional train wreck known as the TF fandom.

Seriously, I love how the slightest bit of news or image of something coming out without all the information can cause the fandom to either leap with joy or create a crapstorm thread based off of not having all the information.

Why not someone ask the guys that had to pull down their preorder what was up? That would solve a lot of problems.

Jesterhead wrote:

MagnusPrimal wrote:No, it's not. It's the (arguable) theft of IP and the (arguable) theft of IP.
I don't see how the specifics involved matter in regards to the use of another company's IP without their permission.

If we are dealing in black and whites with individual example, then yes.

But, Hasbro/TT are having their toys ripped off to make more toys. While Lamborghini is having their cars ripped off to make toys. Hasbro doesn't compete with Lamborghini for sales of the same thing.

Also, these 3rd party groups are basing %100 of their sales off of Hasbro/TTs IP. Hasbro/TT gets licenses to produce replica alt-modes when applicable (Binaltech, Alterniy, Movie-verse).

One is a lot more offensive than the other.

To you. In my eyes, if TT is going to go after these 3rd party companies for breaking the law, then they shouldn't be breaking the same law.
Except maybe for iGear. That's pretty blatant theft.