The Energon Pub

necr0blivion wrote:

gambit020480 wrote:

Cyber Bishop wrote:

Soundwave99 wrote:

Cyber Bishop wrote:First PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL. No name calling PERIOD. I am interested in getting fellow collectors opinions on scalping

Through the years I have heard all the reasons why people buy collectables, then turn around slap "rare" on them and sell them on ebay.
The one reason that always rubbed me the wrong way is:
"I sell the extra to pay for my toy collecting habit"
I say this, you want to pay for your habit, then get another job to support it. I have worked ONE job and still manage to swing by with what I want to buy. Do not rob other collectors the joy of waling into a store and finding the new latest and greatest toys.

Another one is "oh I am helping out fellow collectors"
No. Sorry but this does not work, you want to "help" then sell them for what it cost you to pick them up. Don't factor gas because to be honest it does not matter if gas is $4 a gallon or $2, you went to the store to pick up something for yourself and just so happened to picked up extras. If gas it too much for you then simply stop collecting and you won't waste gas driving around to look for toys.

Please discuss this and keep it civil as I am interested in others views on the subject.

I'm going to be blunt here. I just don't understand this kind of thinking. We live in a capitalist society here in the U.S., people are free to make money any legal way they see fit. Why do you think it's ok for you to tell others how they should earn money to pay for a toy collecting habit or anything else for that matter?

Also, there is no right to walk into a store and find the latest and greatest anything. If you want that experience, you better beat other people to it, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I'm not trying to be rude, just giving my opinion like you asked for.

And I am going to be blunt, you want to have a hobby, then make enough money to support it, do not make someone else pay for your hobby.

For example, my brother in law is big into accessorizing his truck and he has put thousands into it.. Now at his regular job he does not make enough to pay the bills and make due with his hobby so he HAS A SECOND JOB TO PAY FOR HIS HOBBY, and this job does not interfere with anyone else's hobby.

Maybe I come from the "old school" values of you want something WORK for it. Back in my Star Wars collecting days I have had scalpers PAY TRU employees to hold cases in the back for them till they could pick through them. Now how is this "fair" and "capitalist"?
Maybe I am too honest of a person to understand this.

And again it comes to VALUES..

Skyfire-5 wrote:To me, these toys are meant to be found on shelves for a price affordable

Why not?

Dude, seriously....market price is not "dishonest". Someone who sells a premium product for premium price does not make it dishonest. If that is true Apple is dishonest for selling an iPad of 2x the cost of a labtop. McDonalds is dishonest for selling you a $1 double cheese when it cost .40 to make. Having all the prices the same on everything is not the attributes of a free market society. No offense, but that is communist.

If you want a Ipod, expect to pay 2x retail over another MP3. If you want a Pizza King pizza, expect to pay 2x over Pizza Hut or Papa John's. And if you want a RTS Grapple, expect to pay 2x more than a DOTM Megatron. Its the American way!

The problem with your rhetoric...? You're giving examples of the original producer setting prices. Hasbro sets the MSRP about $20 for a Voyager figure. It doesn't matter if it's Lugnut, Solar Flare Grappel, etc. The price was set and product was shipped. Hasbro doesn't set the price of Grappel or whatever short-packed figure higher, that would be the secondary market.

If I go to this Pizza King and expect to pay 2x more than I would at another chain pizza restaurant, it's because Pizza King told me that is their price.

I will contend that America is a capitalistic society, and I do enjoy that lifestyle. However, I do not agree with paying over the market price for a figure that's just been released and should be available at that price. Someone running around picking up all the copies of said product to create an artificially created shortfall just to better their own - that's the essence of scalping. It's really not "helping" me one bit.

You have to understand, there are a-holes out there. Just like the guy Robofreak used as an example. But, if you get there 1st then more power to you. The RTS line was kind of an exception as it was Hasbros fault for poor planning. Seriously the 2010 line was irrelevant and unnecessary. Why is it Walmarts fault when they want product on the shelf? If so, then it is your fault too for not buying 12 Jetfires so they could make room for the RTS characters.
If you see the case assortment for a wave and you see one Warpath to two each of everything else you would expect to pay a premium. Just like if you see an ad for Pizza King vs Pizza Hut. By the way, I had a royal feast last night that and that thing was awesome!

gambit020480 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gambit020480 wrote:If you want a Ipod, expect to pay 2x retail over another MP3. If you want a Pizza King pizza, expect to pay 2x over Pizza Hut or Papa John's. And if you want a RTS Grapple, expect to pay 2x more than a DOTM Megatron. Its the American way!

The last example is moot, because they were intended to be roughly the same price, coming from the same company, being in same Size Class, plus the price is only jacked up in the aftermarket. In other words, it's a different kind of animal.

If that is so, why the varying case assortments? Why only have one Megatron DOTM voyager to 3 Primes? Why does Hot Wheels have treasure hunting cars? Why do baseball card companies have chase cards? I'm sorry, but my example is not "moot" as you put it. It is the truth.

If you think Hasbro is creating rarity intentionally, you're a conspiracy theorist. Plus, you're mixing products with different intentions into one single pile.

First of all, the varying assortments is merely to maximize profits by cashing in on popular characters. It's common sense that Optimus Prime, Bumblebee and some others are popular characters, so Hasbro produces more toys of those characters to fill demand, spreads them across multiple waves, thus maximise profit. Less prominent characters get less toys due to the smaller demand, thus minimising risk. Hasbro hardy pays heed to us collectors, at least not in this way as they don't earn a single dime from the aftermarket. To end this part, the first Voyager wave has Ironhide as well, so it's 2x Optimus Prime, 1x Megatron and 1x Ironhide.

The world of baseball cards as per your example is almost totally different, as the main goal has always been to collect, as opposed to just buying a toy to play with. But the market working is essentially the same, except you do not buy a single card as opposed to a single figure, you buy them in bulk and/or blindpacked. The rare chase cards is what keeps the fans buying those packs. Different world from buying toys. In your defense though, Transformers did have something similar in Japan: the Micron Boosters.

Put short, Transformers is not, and never was, primarily intended to be a Collector's Line, the rarity caused is a mere side-effect, augmented by oversights

And it seems I'm not typing fast enough. O well.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Soundwave99 wrote:GoldRabbit,

Certain people get away with insider trading. It just depends who you are and how much money/power you have. Like I said before, life isn't fair.

I'm not completely sure what you are getting at. Are you trying to say we should have laws against selling something for more than you paid?

No, laws against re-selling product, acquired from regular stores, with a profit. I believe it's already illegal for DVD's. "Licensed for private home viewing only" it says on my I Love Lucy DVD's

If you want to make profit and earn money, get a better job, create a store and register at a Chamber of Commerce, whatever. I wonder, would scalping contribute to Tax Evasion? After all, you're making a profit, and all income, including profits, should be reported to the IRS.

O, and people getting away with it doesn't make it any less illegal.

Exactly!! And it is manipulating if someone goes and buys EVERYTHING on sight, takes them to his or her store to sell at a high markup.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gambit020480 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gambit020480 wrote:If you want a Ipod, expect to pay 2x retail over another MP3. If you want a Pizza King pizza, expect to pay 2x over Pizza Hut or Papa John's. And if you want a RTS Grapple, expect to pay 2x more than a DOTM Megatron. Its the American way!

The last example is moot, because they were intended to be roughly the same price, coming from the same company, being in same Size Class, plus the price is only jacked up in the aftermarket. In other words, it's a different kind of animal.

If that is so, why the varying case assortments? Why only have one Megatron DOTM voyager to 3 Primes? Why does Hot Wheels have treasure hunting cars? Why do baseball card companies have chase cards? I'm sorry, but my example is not "moot" as you put it. It is the truth.

If you think Hasbro is creating rarity intentionally, you're a conspiracy theorist. Plus, you're mixing products with different intentions into one single pile.

First of all, the varying assortments is merely to maximize profits by cashing in on popular characters. It's common sense that Optimus Prime, Bumblebee and some others are popular characters, so Hasbro produces more toys of those characters to fill demand, spreads them across multiple waves, thus maximise profit. Less prominent characters get less toys due to the smaller demand, thus minimising risk. Hasbro hardy pays heed to us collectors, at least not in this way as they don't earn a single dime from the aftermarket. To end this part, the first Voyager wave has Ironhide as well, so it's 2x Optimus Prime, 1x Megatron and 1x Ironhide.

The world of baseball cards as per your example is almost totally different, as the main goal has always been to collect, as opposed to just buying a toy to play with. But the market working is essentially the same, except you do not buy a single card as opposed to a single figure, you buy them in bulk and/or blindpacked. The rare chase cards is what keeps the fans buying those packs. Different world from buying toys. In your defense though, Transformers did have something similar in Japan: the Micron Boosters.

Put short, Transformers is not, and never was, primarily intended to be a Collector's Line, the rarity caused is a mere side-effect, augmented by oversights

And it seems I'm not typing fast enough. O well.

I am not a consiracy theorist just because I think it might be intentional. They have guys sitting around all day, making $100k a year, thinking of ways to maximize profits. Your popular figure thoery is wrong. If so, why are there 12 Skullgrins and Thunderwings taking up valuable space at your local Walmart? A case assortment should be proportional to popularity, but the people in marketing at Hasbro are so out of touch to their collectors they casue these scenarios. Now, if it is purposely done is all speculation, but I would not put it past them.

Your collectors comment is irrelevant in economics. The market drives it to be a collectors product and that is what it is primarily. What it once was is not applicable now. Comics were meant to be thowaways and someone bought a Superman #1 for a million dollars. Is that not scalping too by your definition?

gambit020480 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gambit020480 wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

gambit020480 wrote:If you want a Ipod, expect to pay 2x retail over another MP3. If you want a Pizza King pizza, expect to pay 2x over Pizza Hut or Papa John's. And if you want a RTS Grapple, expect to pay 2x more than a DOTM Megatron. Its the American way!

The last example is moot, because they were intended to be roughly the same price, coming from the same company, being in same Size Class, plus the price is only jacked up in the aftermarket. In other words, it's a different kind of animal.

If that is so, why the varying case assortments? Why only have one Megatron DOTM voyager to 3 Primes? Why does Hot Wheels have treasure hunting cars? Why do baseball card companies have chase cards? I'm sorry, but my example is not "moot" as you put it. It is the truth.

If you think Hasbro is creating rarity intentionally, you're a conspiracy theorist. Plus, you're mixing products with different intentions into one single pile.

First of all, the varying assortments is merely to maximize profits by cashing in on popular characters. It's common sense that Optimus Prime, Bumblebee and some others are popular characters, so Hasbro produces more toys of those characters to fill demand, spreads them across multiple waves, thus maximise profit. Less prominent characters get less toys due to the smaller demand, thus minimising risk. Hasbro hardy pays heed to us collectors, at least not in this way as they don't earn a single dime from the aftermarket. To end this part, the first Voyager wave has Ironhide as well, so it's 2x Optimus Prime, 1x Megatron and 1x Ironhide.

The world of baseball cards as per your example is almost totally different, as the main goal has always been to collect, as opposed to just buying a toy to play with. But the market working is essentially the same, except you do not buy a single card as opposed to a single figure, you buy them in bulk and/or blindpacked. The rare chase cards is what keeps the fans buying those packs. Different world from buying toys. In your defense though, Transformers did have something similar in Japan: the Micron Boosters.

Put short, Transformers is not, and never was, primarily intended to be a Collector's Line, the rarity caused is a mere side-effect, augmented by oversights

And it seems I'm not typing fast enough. O well.

I am not a consiracy theorist just because I think it might be intentional. They have guys sitting around all day, making $100k a year, thinking of ways to maximize profits. Your popular figure thoery is wrong. If so, why are there 12 Skullgrins and Thunderwings taking up valuable space at your local Walmart? A case assortment should be proportional to popularity, but the people in marketing at Hasbro are so out of touch to their collectors they casue these scenarios. Now, if it is purposely done is all speculation, but I would not put it past them.

Your collectors comment is irrelevant in economics. The market drives it to be a collectors product and that is what it is primarily. What it once was is not applicable now. Comics were meant to be thowaways and someone bought a Superman #1 for a million dollars. Is that not scalping too by your definition?

Your view is a bit skewed I believe. I specifically mentioned oversights, because Hasbro is indeed not perfect. I think Mudflap can attest to that. The popular figures get bought up first, the rest stays behind and become shelfwarmers, preventing the stores from ordering new stock. It's true projected popularity plays a role, but the case distribution between figures does remain even nonetheless. The figures do have to be switched out for newer different ones eventually, otherwise Hasbro runs the risk of saturating the market and causing a stock market crash in the long run, or at least driving the price of Hasbro's shares through the floor. With all hypes, after a while everyone needs a breather.

In the primary capitalist market Transformers were primarily meant to be toys, Trading Cards were meant to be collectibles, end of story. The aftermarket on the other hand is what makes everything into a collectible, especially antiques. Funny you should mention Superman #1 being auctioned off for a million. Perfect example of how the aftermarket works I don't call that scalping, as the person in question originally bought it for 50 cents IIRC, and never thought it would make that much money.

What scalpers basically do is swipe merchandise from the primary market into the aftermarket, where there are no real laws (except the one law which prohibits resale of older toys, due to lead paint) and prices are not set in stone. And they take great advantage of that.

Good debate, but I am bored with it now. The bottom line: People will pay only what the market asks, period. People will continue to profit off of action figures, baseball cards, cars, potato chips, etc.....

If you don't like, you don't have to buy. End of story. If you don't like the way it is, head to China where they control what you buy and for how much. You can hold your breath and pout about the prices all you want, but at the end of the day if you want a Grapple or Windcharger expect to pay $40. Sucks, but hey, spend your money elsewhere if you don't like it. I don't see anything I would consider to be an earthmoving revelation happening with this thread and all its purpose is to be bitter about not having something you don't own or can't afford. Or coveting if you like. I am happy with paying $35 for a Windcharger because that is the market price. Its not like ther is one guy selling him at that price and everyone else is selling him at retail value. It just doeesn't work that way. Anyway, its been fun. I am heading over to the toy forum to get some tips on making my own custom Cliffjumper. You see, I am not bitter about the market price of $80 for him. I don't like the price so I am making my own. There are other ways rather than namecalling, playing the blame game, acting holier than thou by calling people unmoral, and being angry at something you don't have. I do love a good debate, however! Later!

I have less of an issue with selling common toys than the exclusives. At the end of the day I have a much larger problem with people claiming they need a figure for themselves on a BST board, purchasing it and immediately posting it for 2 to 4 times that amount. In terms of common figures at retail? Even hard to find ones like Warpath, I think fandom can acquire them from online retailers, so it is much less of an issue. As was previously mentioned, scalpers do end up holding the bags sometimes.

Cyber Bishop wrote:

Soundwave99 wrote:

Cyber Bishop wrote:First PLEASE KEEP IT CIVIL. No name calling PERIOD. I am interested in getting fellow collectors opinions on scalping

Through the years I have heard all the reasons why people buy collectables, then turn around slap "rare" on them and sell them on ebay.
The one reason that always rubbed me the wrong way is:
"I sell the extra to pay for my toy collecting habit"
I say this, you want to pay for your habit, then get another job to support it. I have worked ONE job and still manage to swing by with what I want to buy. Do not rob other collectors the joy of waling into a store and finding the new latest and greatest toys.

Another one is "oh I am helping out fellow collectors"
No. Sorry but this does not work, you want to "help" then sell them for what it cost you to pick them up. Don't factor gas because to be honest it does not matter if gas is $4 a gallon or $2, you went to the store to pick up something for yourself and just so happened to picked up extras. If gas it too much for you then simply stop collecting and you won't waste gas driving around to look for toys.

Please discuss this and keep it civil as I am interested in others views on the subject.

I'm going to be blunt here. I just don't understand this kind of thinking. We live in a capitalist society here in the U.S., people are free to make money any legal way they see fit. Why do you think it's ok for you to tell others how they should earn money to pay for a toy collecting habit or anything else for that matter?

Also, there is no right to walk into a store and find the latest and greatest anything. If you want that experience, you better beat other people to it, there's no such thing as a free lunch.

I'm not trying to be rude, just giving my opinion like you asked for.

And I am going to be blunt, you want to have a hobby, then make enough money to support it, do not make someone else pay for your hobby.

For example, my brother in law is big into accessorizing his truck and he has put thousands into it.. Now at his regular job he does not make enough to pay the bills and make due with his hobby so he HAS A SECOND JOB TO PAY FOR HIS HOBBY, and this job does not interfere with anyone else's hobby.

Maybe I come from the "old school" values of you want something WORK for it. Back in my Star Wars collecting days I have had scalpers PAY TRU employees to hold cases in the back for them till they could pick through them. Now how is this "fair" and "capitalist"?
Maybe I am too honest of a person to understand this.

And again it comes to VALUES..

Why not?

You just don't seem to get that it's not up to YOU to tell anyone how they should make money for a hobby or anything else.

Your entire argument is based purely on emotion and nothing is going to get you to see this situation logically. I am done discussing this with you any further because I don't think it will do any good.

Again it comes down to you trying to push YOUR VALUES onto others.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Soundwave99 wrote:GoldRabbit,

Certain people get away with insider trading. It just depends who you are and how much money/power you have. Like I said before, life isn't fair.

I'm not completely sure what you are getting at. Are you trying to say we should have laws against selling something for more than you paid?

No, laws against re-selling product, acquired from regular stores, with a profit. I believe it's already illegal for DVD's. "Licensed for private home viewing only" it says on my I Love Lucy DVD's

If you want to make profit and earn money, get a better job, create a store and register at a Chamber of Commerce, whatever. I wonder, would scalping contribute to Tax Evasion? After all, you're making a profit, and all income, including profits, should be reported to the IRS.

O, and people getting away with it doesn't make it any less illegal.

So in other words, the stock should be left on the shelf for you to find because your entitled to it over someone else who wants to sell it. Also, licensed for private home viewing just means you can't rent the movie out or charge people admission to watch it. You are free to sell a DVD (a legit copy, not a bootleg) you buy from the store for any price you want.

If you want to bring up tax evasion, I'm sure you would never ask the seller to lie on the customs form about any items you import, right? That is also tax evasion. If you live in the US, you are also required to pay tax for any items purchased out of state, and yes that includes things purchased online. I'd be willing to bet almost everyone here is guilty of tax evasion at least one of those ways.

gambit020480 wrote:Good debate, but I am bored with it now. The bottom line: People will pay only what the market asks, period. People will continue to profit off of action figures, baseball cards, cars, potato chips, etc.....

If you don't like, you don't have to buy. End of story. If you don't like the way it is, head to China where they control what you buy and for how much. You can hold your breath and pout about the prices all you want, but at the end of the day if you want a Grapple or Windcharger expect to pay $40. Sucks, but hey, spend your money elsewhere if you don't like it. I don't see anything I would consider to be an earthmoving revelation happening with this thread and all its purpose is to be bitter about not having something you don't own or can't afford. Or coveting if you like. I am happy with paying $35 for a Windcharger because that is the market price. Its not like ther is one guy selling him at that price and everyone else is selling him at retail value. It just doeesn't work that way. Anyway, its been fun. I am heading over to the toy forum to get some tips on making my own custom Cliffjumper. You see, I am not bitter about the market price of $80 for him. I don't like the price so I am making my own. There are other ways rather than namecalling, playing the blame game, acting holier than thou by calling people unmoral, and being angry at something you don't have. I do love a good debate, however! Later!

Very well said. Some of you should keep reading this until it sinks in.

I just received a couple of PMs and was asked to lock this as it is going nowhere and it is on the borderline of a flame war.

OH, and I have all the figures that were mentioned (Warpath, Windcharger, etc..) and I paid no more than retail for them either..

There are some people that agree and some that do not.

So if there are some that agree then they are not solely MY values then.
Oh well..

*locked per request*