The Energon Pub

shamone wrote:first off this is not a defence of ebert. i find his work has become sloppy, frequently lazy, and he seems to be not following the movies as they happen

However, the role of the critic seems to be very misunderstood in a lot of examples here.

first of all critics is not short hand for criticism. they are reviewers, so they are not out to bash the movies you love, they are there to review them.

Secondly critics review movies based on the quality of the movie, not the popularity. so if they give a review of a movie, it doesnt mean that they dont think people will like it, just that its not good quality. So TF, or avatar can get average reviews, but smash box office. Popularity is not a reflection of quality. Miley cyrus, jonas brothers and bieber sell tonnes of records, it doesnt make them good.

finally this argument that critics are failed movie directors and therefore not equipped to review movies is a fallacy. Are restaurant critics all four star michellin chefs, are art critics hidden van goghs. No because it is about appreciation of the art. these people will have studied film, seen enourmous amounts of film, and would understand the history of cinema. Film historians arent usually fil directors (failed or otherwise). Doing the job is not neccesary for appreciation

You just sidestepped the entire point of the thread and went right to justifying Ebert's review of the film, which I stated earlier is not the point of this thread.

So I'll direct the question of this thread directly to you shamone. Are you ok with what he said about fans of RotF, and fans of pretty much anything as quoted in the original post I made? We know you hate RotF, so do us a favor and save that topic for the million other threads about it.

Capt.Failure wrote:

Prime Riblet wrote:Without Gene Siskel as a foil, Ebert's opinions are worthless.

It's not just Ebert though, but the critical establishment. What I wanna know is where is the hate coming from? The fact that the opinions of critics mean less and less each year? Some kind of misguided belief that they have the final word on film quality? A similar misguided belief that they define what is and what is not art?

Just look at this:



Trying to stick to Transformers to keep the thread on topic for the forums. Again, look at the disparity between professional critics on the left and audiences on the right. Did Ebert see this, and the film's success, and have a childish (if well written) tantrum on his blog that people liked what he didn't? I'd expect that from an average forum goer (just look at me for Primus' sake ), but not a professional journalist.

Edit: I'll add that such disparity leads critics and those who support them to call general audiences idiots, ADD addled children, and rednecks with zero taste in film. This, in turn, is no better than Ebert's rantings.

I think that's EXACTLY what happened. He gave the movie a negative review, but a lot of people saw it and loved it despite that. He threw a tantrum because people don't care about what he says like he thought they did.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:I think that's EXACTLY what happened. He gave the movie a negative review, but a lot of people saw it and loved it despite that. He threw a tantrum because people don't care about what he says like he thought they did.

Heh. That's entirely possible. I mean, it happens on here and other boards on an almost daily basis. So...yeah, that actually seems feasible.

To go with Captain Falirue's question posed to Shamone, I have a massive issue with people making sweeping overgeneralizations about people for being fans of something. Ebert wasn't the only one tossing out statements saying basically the world full of idiots for transformers being a success.

Moviebob basically had nothing but vemon for Michael Bay's films and slings crap at them every chance he gets. I like watching his videos , but it's like we get it Bob, you hate Michael Bay's take on transformers. You have your nostaglia goggles on so tight it's pulling your head into your rear end.(seriously if you are going bash the new films dont holding up the 86 film as transformers done right because it has even more flaws.) Tossing out comments like these films were made by D bags for D bags about everyone who saw it...Screw that.

Same with Distressed Watcher who basically said something along the lines that people who liked the films should be rounded up and put in concentration camps. I'm sorry weren't you trying rate or review the films not insult the majority of the populations for liking something? I think about someone calling my sisters kids D bags to their faces or suggesting they should be taken away for liking something and I wish to bury my fist in this face. Ultimately it's just words and little kids who liked the film likely never saw this statements to be offended, but thats just how blindly stupid that is.

Ultimately most of the bashing isn't just decontructing these movies intelligently. That I could live with. It's all hyperboles and false statements tossed out because they weren't interested enough to pay attention to answer their own questions.

Just though I'd update with more wisdom from Mr. Ebert that I found floating around on the internet:

"I was indeed a snob, if you agree with this definition: 'A person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people.' I do believe that. Not superior to all other people, but to some, most probably including those who think Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is a great film. That is not simply ego on my part. It is a faith that after writing and teaching about films for more than 40 years, my tastes are more evolved than those of a fanboy."
— Roger Ebert in The Great Movies III

Everybody got that? If you like a film he doesn't, especially RotF, then you are a mindless fanboy with poor taste in film.

Maybe he'd find it hilarious if I told him my all time favorite film is 2001: A Space Odyssey, and that to me there isn't a single film that holds up to it in terms of quality? Of course I also like RotF, so that negates such facts obviously.

Capt.Failure wrote:Just though I'd update with more wisdom from Mr. Ebert that I found floating around on the internet:

"I was indeed a snob, if you agree with this definition: 'A person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people.' I do believe that. Not superior to all other people, but to some, most probably including those who think Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is a great film. That is not simply ego on my part. It is a faith that after writing and teaching about films for more than 40 years, my tastes are more evolved than those of a fanboy."
— Roger Ebert in The Great Movies III

Everybody got that? If you like a film he doesn't, especially RotF, then you are a mindless fanboy with poor taste in film.

Maybe he'd find it hilarious if I told him my all time favorite film is 2001: A Space Odyssey, and that to me there isn't a single film that holds up to it in terms of quality? Of course I also like RotF, so that negates such facts obviously.

Now, I REALLY hate him. Even more than I did before. Just because he's a "professional", he can rule over our minds.

"...I do believe that. Not superior to all other people, but to some, most probably including those who think Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is a great film. That is not simply ego on my part. It is a faith that after writing and teaching about films for more than 40 years, my tastes are more evolved than those of a fanboy."

What a nice guy. So...what does he say about those who liked it, but also have "evolved tastes" and/or aren't fanboys?

Capt.Failure wrote:Just though I'd update with more wisdom from Mr. Ebert that I found floating around on the internet:

"I was indeed a snob, if you agree with this definition: 'A person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people.' I do believe that. Not superior to all other people, but to some, most probably including those who think Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is a great film. That is not simply ego on my part. It is a faith that after writing and teaching about films for more than 40 years, my tastes are more evolved than those of a fanboy."
— Roger Ebert in The Great Movies III

Everybody got that? If you like a film he doesn't, especially RotF, then you are a mindless fanboy with poor taste in film.

Maybe he'd find it hilarious if I told him my all time favorite film is 2001: A Space Odyssey, and that to me there isn't a single film that holds up to it in terms of quality? Of course I also like RotF, so that negates such facts obviously.

I agree with you, man. My favorite films of all time are The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly and Seven Samurai. And I loved ROTF. Ebert liked X-Men 3, so that tells me something.

KingEmperor wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:Just though I'd update with more wisdom from Mr. Ebert that I found floating around on the internet:

"I was indeed a snob, if you agree with this definition: 'A person who believes that their tastes in a particular area are superior to those of other people.' I do believe that. Not superior to all other people, but to some, most probably including those who think Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is a great film. That is not simply ego on my part. It is a faith that after writing and teaching about films for more than 40 years, my tastes are more evolved than those of a fanboy."
— Roger Ebert in The Great Movies III

Everybody got that? If you like a film he doesn't, especially RotF, then you are a mindless fanboy with poor taste in film.

Maybe he'd find it hilarious if I told him my all time favorite film is 2001: A Space Odyssey, and that to me there isn't a single film that holds up to it in terms of quality? Of course I also like RotF, so that negates such facts obviously.

I agree with you, man. My favorite films of all time are The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly and Seven Samurai. And I loved ROTF. Ebert liked X-Men 3, so that tells me something.

And Knowing as well.

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:first off this is not a defence of ebert. i find his work has become sloppy, frequently lazy, and he seems to be not following the movies as they happen

However, the role of the critic seems to be very misunderstood in a lot of examples here.

first of all critics is not short hand for criticism. they are reviewers, so they are not out to bash the movies you love, they are there to review them.

Secondly critics review movies based on the quality of the movie, not the popularity. so if they give a review of a movie, it doesnt mean that they dont think people will like it, just that its not good quality. So TF, or avatar can get average reviews, but smash box office. Popularity is not a reflection of quality. Miley cyrus, jonas brothers and bieber sell tonnes of records, it doesnt make them good.

finally this argument that critics are failed movie directors and therefore not equipped to review movies is a fallacy. Are restaurant critics all four star michellin chefs, are art critics hidden van goghs. No because it is about appreciation of the art. these people will have studied film, seen enourmous amounts of film, and would understand the history of cinema. Film historians arent usually fil directors (failed or otherwise). Doing the job is not neccesary for appreciation

You just sidestepped the entire point of the thread and went right to justifying Ebert's review of the film, which I stated earlier is not the point of this thread.

So I'll direct the question of this thread directly to you shamone. Are you ok with what he said about fans of RotF, and fans of pretty much anything as quoted in the original post I made? We know you hate RotF, so do us a favor and save that topic for the million other threads about it.

woah there fella. Did you read the first line. that should answer your direct question to me.

however the title of the thread is wrath of critics, not ebert is a d1ck. and other posters have mentioned film reviewing in general, which is where i made my point.

i didnt bash the movies, i just said popular does not equate to good.

Do i agree with ebert and the fans. Not the approach or the manner which he made it, hell no, its unprofessional, bitter and childish.

however there is truth in what he says, in a way. Art is subjective, however someone who has studied that art, or worked in the industry, even as a critic (think about all the movies they hAve seen) does have more understanding about what makes something artistic and more quality than people who are fans of toy franchises (myself included). noW its all subjective and enjoyment and popularity are important and there is no need to be snooty about what people like, but if his message was

Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

then I would agree with him. now im not sure if thats what he was saying, such was the rant he published

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

i didnt say it couldnt be his favourite film.

It could be the greatest film he has ever seem

that doesnt make it the greatest film ever made

seriously fella read what im writing before posting

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

you cannot say something is the greatest of all time, if you have a narrow experience of something which has a broad spectrum. i mean you can say it, but it wont be taken all that serious, experience counts for a lot

SlyTF1 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

never said that its flawed to call it your favourite movie

but the greatest movie ever, as you say you are biased, so that has to be considered when judging if ROTF is the greatest movie ever. Which is what ebert should have written in a reasonable manner, people with bias, there judgment must be taken with a pinch of salt

this is not a criticism of you, just the way that reviewing and ranking works

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

never said that its flawed to call it your favourite movie

but the greatest movie ever, as you say you are biased, so that has to be considered when judging if ROTF is the greatest movie ever. Which is what ebert should have written in a reasonable manner, people with bias, there judgment must be taken with a pinch of salt

this is not a criticism of you, just the way that reviewing and ranking works

I guess when you compare ROTF with the definition of what society thinks is a god movie, I guess you can't say it's the "best" movie. Too bad I don't follow society's corrupt "rules"...not that I'm a criminal.

shamone wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

you cannot say something is the greatest of all time, if you have a narrow experience of something which has a broad spectrum. i mean you can say it, but it wont be taken all that serious, experience counts for a lot

And personal opinion counts for a hell of a lot more. I've eaten alot of very fancy, exotic food from all over the world in my years, including some things I never dreamed I would be able to stomach that turned out to be really good, excellent even. I'd go as far as to call myself a bit of a snob on the subject. But you know what? Nothing beats a hamburger in my eyes. Ab-so-frakin'-lutely nothing, ever, anywhere, any day.

And that right there is were your arguement utterly fails. Sure, there's experience involved in matters of taste. But what you love personally regardless of experience is what matters most. And you have no right to tell anyone they are wrong for what is their favorite, no matter their experience.

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

never said that its flawed to call it your favourite movie

but the greatest movie ever, as you say you are biased, so that has to be considered when judging if ROTF is the greatest movie ever. Which is what ebert should have written in a reasonable manner, people with bias, there judgment must be taken with a pinch of salt

this is not a criticism of you, just the way that reviewing and ranking works

I guess when you compare ROTF with the definition of what society thinks is a god movie, I guess you can't say it's the "best" movie. Too bad I don't follow society's corrupt "rules"...not that I'm a criminal.

well its not society as such

society's top ten movies, compared to the film historians, or serious movie critics top tens would be quite different believe me. you would be closer to societies choices than you imagine i would guess

And again its if you are asking, what is your top ten favourite movies as opposed to what are your top ten best movies

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

never said that its flawed to call it your favourite movie

but the greatest movie ever, as you say you are biased, so that has to be considered when judging if ROTF is the greatest movie ever. Which is what ebert should have written in a reasonable manner, people with bias, there judgment must be taken with a pinch of salt

this is not a criticism of you, just the way that reviewing and ranking works

I guess when you compare ROTF with the definition of what society thinks is a god movie, I guess you can't say it's the "best" movie. Too bad I don't follow society's corrupt "rules"...not that I'm a criminal.

well its not society as such

society's top ten movies, compared to the film historians, or serious movie critics top tens would be quite different believe me. you would be closer to societies choices than you imagine i would guess

And again its if you are asking, what is your top ten favourite movies as opposed to what are your top ten best movies

It's the same. What ever you favor, you're sure to think it's the best in your opinion.

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

never said that its flawed to call it your favourite movie

but the greatest movie ever, as you say you are biased, so that has to be considered when judging if ROTF is the greatest movie ever. Which is what ebert should have written in a reasonable manner, people with bias, there judgment must be taken with a pinch of salt

this is not a criticism of you, just the way that reviewing and ranking works

I guess when you compare ROTF with the definition of what society thinks is a god movie, I guess you can't say it's the "best" movie. Too bad I don't follow society's corrupt "rules"...not that I'm a criminal.

well its not society as such

society's top ten movies, compared to the film historians, or serious movie critics top tens would be quite different believe me. you would be closer to societies choices than you imagine i would guess

And again its if you are asking, what is your top ten favourite movies as opposed to what are your top ten best movies

It's the same. What ever you favor, you're sure to think it's the best in your opinion.

in your opinion maybe, but a lot of peoples favourite movies, would not be the movies they consider the best.

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:

shamone wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

shamone wrote:Transformers was a movie which was not a classic, was flawed and i didnt like it, however some people may find it enjoyable, but those people who believe its the greatest movie ever (in purely artistic terms) may not have the experience or the knowledge to accurately judge the place transformers deserves in the pantheon of cinema history, whereas I do.

So, what? Knowledge determines if you find something entertaining, now?

Why should it matter if you're knowledgeable to "accurately" judge a movie? If you like something, you like it.

which is exactly the point im making.

you can enjoy the movie, you can say it was great fun, but if you think its the greatest movie of all tim, then you ahve to accept that others will question that. It might be to you (and thats all thats important to you) but people will point out that you would need to see a lot of movies to knwow hat is the best.

Your logic is flawed I'm afraid. There is absolutely nothing wrong with finding Transformers the best no matter what you've seen over the years. If Sly where to get more film viewing experience and change his mind then there's nothing wrong with that. But who are you to say he can't find it his all time favorite film? You are not the judge of that, you have no place to define greatness for anyone. If anything, you've just proven yourself to be no better than Ebert.

Well, I can't change my mind. I'm kind of bias. If it's a Transformers movie, it's the greatest ever.

If a movie has elements that you enjoy, you can say it's your favorite ever. It depends on what you're looking for. And ROTF was like a dream come true for me. Transformers mixed with real alien theories to bring a new light of the TF's existence on earth.

never said that its flawed to call it your favourite movie

but the greatest movie ever, as you say you are biased, so that has to be considered when judging if ROTF is the greatest movie ever. Which is what ebert should have written in a reasonable manner, people with bias, there judgment must be taken with a pinch of salt

this is not a criticism of you, just the way that reviewing and ranking works

I guess when you compare ROTF with the definition of what society thinks is a god movie, I guess you can't say it's the "best" movie. Too bad I don't follow society's corrupt "rules"...not that I'm a criminal.

well its not society as such

society's top ten movies, compared to the film historians, or serious movie critics top tens would be quite different believe me. you would be closer to societies choices than you imagine i would guess

And again its if you are asking, what is your top ten favourite movies as opposed to what are your top ten best movies

It's the same. What ever you favor, you're sure to think it's the best in your opinion.

in your opinion maybe, but a lot of peoples favourite movies, would not be the movies they consider the best.

So I guess we can gather than quality is reletive.

"...I do believe that. Not superior to all other people, but to some, most probably including those who think Transformers: Revenge Of The Fallen is a great film. That is not simply ego on my part. It is a faith that after writing and teaching about films for more than 40 years, my tastes are more evolved than those of a fanboy."

No, Ebert it's all ego on your part. This same guy who's only played 5 mins of video games but just knows from that little time they can never be high art.....can't have it both ways.

It's like taking advice about what boat to buy from a guy who's worked only on cars for 40 years. Being a so called expert doesn't make you an expert on everything. Not even with said field. I mean many martial artists won't even call themselves masters in a single style till years and years of training. It ultimately comes down to what Socrates said..."True wisdom is to know I know nothing."

Ebert isn't usually willing bother learning any of the background of new IPs other than what film tells him. And if it loses him with in the first 5 mins by not telling the story he wants to hear then he won't bother paying attention close enough to properly appreciate the film's details. With Kick-ass he basically said it was too much like video games and there for not for him...since told a story he didn't want to hear.

It's not just an age thing either. One of my former Coworkers is in his 70s and I loan him films of mine all time. He liked Kick-ass and both transformers films. While he liked them for different aspects than I did as he tends enough humor (he really likes the parents in the transformers films.)he likes them nonetheless. He will usually have alot of questions to ask me after he sees the films, but he's willing to accept them and learn about them after the fact.


I'd consider myself to be an expert gamer, since I've been doing it for over 25 years. Despite all that there's games where someone will show me a new trick I never knew even though I've played thru it dozens of times. By taking a new person's perceptive I can learn thnigs about something that I didn't see myself because I never can see or know everything about something. That's what makes life great as there's always new and wonder things to be seen, sometimes right in front of you.

While somethings just aren't for you...it doesn't make them bad. I mean I never have been much for racing or sports games. I can still tell what makes a good one when I see it. Like Gran turismo is a game if I did like racing games I'd probably be into. I don't write off the entire genres just because they aren't what i'm hoping play. (Moviebob loves do that with First person shooters. Again I'm not a huge fan but I still can enjoy playing some Call of Duty as I've logged a bit of time on Black opts for PS3.) That's not remaining objective enough to do your job right as reviewer. Yes we all have biase, but if you aren't willing try and give things chances solely based on previous knowledge then you really can't teach that dog new tricks.

never paid much attention to Ebert, he hates the movies I like, talks down about people who might like them, and rants about how videogames (wich he knows little about) can never be art.


really just listen to Nostalgia Critic, even if I don't agree with the review, at least I'm entertained.


and not like Ebert's likely to sing 'duck tits' in any of his reviews