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Pft, what bs. This is most likely the result of some stupid exec who decides that they want that much more cash in their pockets. Botcon can bite it

why you gotta hate hasbro?

I've been expecting actions like this from Hasbro. It's their intellectual property, and if they don't show an effort to defend it, they lose it. That's US copyright law for you.

I'm sure if that weren't the case, they wouldn't care too much, but the last thing they need is some lawyers calling them out for not defending their intellectual property at their own licensed/official convention and use that as grounds for defending some knockoff company or media production that Hasbro is trying to shut down because it's infringing on their IP rights.

I think that's what Hasbro feels threatened by, losing their IP rights for not defending their copyrights and trademarks, not the fact that these 3rd parties exist and cater to the collectors like they do.

I see different categories for the 3rd party companies, with different levels of douchebagery for each one. I must qualify this by saying that I do have quite a bit of Third Party stuff, and will continue to get it where there are not viable Hasbro alternatives (eg. I have universe Springer, and don't see the point in buying Warbot) I'm trying to play devil's advocate on the following categories.

Level 1 - The 'upgrade' sets that provide a new head or set of weapons etc. These are the most harmless to Hasbro IMO because whoever buys the kit has to first buy the original figure, and all these companies are doing are offering alternative accessories. I'm talking about Headrobots, the iGear heads/weapons, Dr. Wu etc.

Douchebag factor = 0

Level 2 - The 'upgrade' sets that enhance the Hasbro combiner, such as the Superion/Bruticus/G1 Devastator sets. In all these cases, the original TFs are required, However the FansProject Bruticus set is slightly different, because it involves using TFs that are non-HasTak.

Douchebag factor = 1

Level 3 - The 'upgrade' sets that form a significant proportion of the finished 'bot, now Hasbro obviously still receive sales because the original figure is required, but they could (and should) argue that, in the case of different characters being created from existing ones (FP Protector) that Hastak's sales are being harmed. I mean, is anyone interested in the United Rodimus retool? I would think not, because Protector pisses all over it. This is a chicken and egg situation, because would Hasbro have made a decent Ultra magnus trailer, or Rodimus upgrade (or even a decent brand new mould) in the absence of the desirable FansProject upgrade? Who nose.

Douchebag Factor = 2

Level 4 - New 3rd-party moulds of Hasbro characters. I have to admire the ingeniuty that these companies show, and I own some myself. While I concede that Hasbro have rejected certain characters, they are less likely to take a punt on 'niche' figures because of the volume they have to ship, and they look at remould/repaint potential of each figure. So I can kinda understand why we will never see certain Hasbro releases. But still, 3rd parties are profiting directly from hasbro's intellectual property, and also lessening the likelihood that Hasbro would make that figure eventually.

Douchebag Factor = 3

Level 5 - This is reserved for the blatant thieves that steal Hasbro moulds and either resize them, or subtly retool them. They are the absolute scum of the earth (I'm looking at you, iGear, with your blatant thievery of the various MP moulds)

Douchebag Factor = 1,000,000,000,000

Just my 10p's worth

DarkBowzer wrote:well it looks like besides box set and souvenier sets I will not be spending money at botcon. because if it isnt an affordable tf prime first edition toy or a 3rd party item. they will be saving me money.....

When third party is making your own **** product better than you hasbro/ takara WHAT THE **** DO YOU EXPECT TO HAPPEN?!?!??!?!?

We have asked for a G1 accurate Arcee that turns into a car, they give us excuses.WHen asked about it at last years botcon by my homie they gave a bullshit answer stating "if we do an Arcee it will only be used from the Arcee from the tf prime series. We have asked for numerous triplechangers like an official springer or a blitzwing we get more BS(and dont give me that horse **** about "they did a blitzwing for animated" because quite frankly I dont give a damn. 3rd party is giving us what we ask for in thier own way which actually breaths new life in toys that we would probably throw in a closet or on ebay(because honestly how many people would have kept a naked ultra magnus optimus prime repaint before just dismissing it as a cheesy pallet swap?) As much as I have stood by hasbro and some of the stupid **** they do And now asia is getting all this awesome **** I heard about and we are here in the states high and dry I have to say at this point **** them. I am 3rd party with good quality all the way this year.

THIS........

While right now I'm not worried about this action taken for Botcon, I can't help but worry about the future of 3rd party toy makers. And if Hasbro does start coming down hard on them, I'm gonna quit collecting TF's all together. I, for one am honestly tired of just seeing one mold done, followed by 5 repaints of the same. Plus these Botcon over-priced ones as well.

Funny how I got lectured some time ago how hasbro have nothing to worry about 3rd partyers...seems to me that they are at least somewhat worried, and this is the result. Fine. Do so if you like. It is surely your right if that is the best you can do, instead of doing something like this:

Hasbro really needs a Transformers line aimed at the adult collector - it's the niche the 3rd Parties are filling.

...not gonna happen. It is funny that there aren't any branch/company that would make official transformers for adult collectors. Aren't takara giving those licenses to anyone or what. Are thos licenses so filthy costly that no one can really buy those? For example games workshop miniature company has their own Forge world subsidiary that is making resin models for collectors.

Never understood why with all these 3rd party companies out there and all their rabid supporters who are so anti-Hasbro that they've never bothered to develop their own universe, their own characters, something that will set them completely apart from Hasbro and Transformers.

Oh wait, that would require originality, and it's so much easier to rip off an existing character that someone else owns.

Maybe because the very idea behind those 3rd party companies is namely to create transformers for collectors since hasbro isn't bothered. Besides if we start talking about someone being creative and such, then hasbro and takara aren't most likely the best examples out there. Transforming robots...well not that original idea I'm afraid. Besides hasbro isn't creating a ****. Isn't that takara tomy that does all creating and most development. And whatever the case, they are just making toys based on designs created many decades ago. They aren't really super original here.

Damn I cant even read half the comments due to all BS saying 3rd party is better...I'm sorry but what? HasTak has produced ALOT more awesome toys than ALL 3rd party toys combine. Seriously just cause they produce some crappy toys in PRID line doesnt mean they are getting worse. Everyone have their downfall once in awhile. Oh and to those who wonder what awesome toys?

Well here's some :-

MP-10 Optimus Prime
Leader movieverse Optimus Prime
Unicron
FE Voyager Optimus
FE Voyager Bulkhead
FE Deluxe Cliffjumper
WFC Deluxe Optimus
WFC Deluxe Megatron

I can name more but you get what I'm trying to say. Stop saying BS like "3rd party is so much better" and so on. Jesus christ without HasTak you guys wont even have those memorable 1980s toys. Oh and btw HasTak have every rights to ban 3rd party products based on TF. Stop whining about them trying to ban the 3rd party products. If it were up to me I wish ALL 3rd party toys got banned to the point selling them can get you arrested.

PS : Dont expect me to reply..I wont be checking this topic ever again.

Good, for you are wrong. You just posted a list full of crap that should make me say that hastak is without any doubt always making better stuff than anyone else? Ok, I admit that MP-10 is nice, but the rest are just boring **** for kids if you ask me. And why wouldn't you ask, since we are talking now about someones personal taste what comes to toysrobots. For I could post even longer list about 3rd party stuff that IMO beats your list. Then again someone would most likely answer to that with a another list in order to beat mine and so on. Some hastak stuff is good but some aren't.
And it has been a quiet year for those who would wait something cool and official stuff from has/tak. But istead of having anything like that I see more and more movie bees and primes and some weirdly colored **** that is for kids. Some late news have been a bit more cheerful but if we talk about only hasbro, then THEY aren't publishing anything worth a mention. Takara is making encore and MP toys.

First off, I'm surprised it has taken this long. The blatant iGear MP rip-offs are the most egregious, but TFC Hercules (which is by far the most awesome TF I own) is clearly an IP rip-off too; there are just too many obvious similarities with G1 Constructicons to ever make a case otherwise.

I think if 3rd parties had limited themselves to "augmentation" products like FP Superion set and Powered Commander, we wouldn't be having this conversation, and HasTak would have much less legal standing (although the Powered Commander similarity to Diaclone is obvious).

Many people are asking "why isn't HasTak making similar products then, to compete against the 3rd party companies in the marketplace, instead of in the courtroom?" I think there's two answers to this:

1) It's their IP, and they get to decide what gets done with it. If they decide to not re-make G1 Devastator, they get to dictate that no one else does either.

2) They *are* competing in the marketplace. Look at the just-announced FOC Bruticus. After years of HasTak claiming that modern gestalts are too difficult, only to be upstaged time and again by FP and TFC, they're finally hitting back. I do not for one second believe that FOC Bruticus would ever have happened without the competitive pressure from 3rd party companies. That's why free-market competition is such s good thing, because it drives innovation and it leads to better products for the consumers. Except in this case, the competition also infringes upon IP; this is admittedly a flawed argument but I think it still makes a valid point.


Oh, and by the way: the blurb about confiscation is pure bluster. As a private corporate citizen, HasTak has no legal right to seize or confiscate anything. Any attempt would be theft, police would be called, and the confiscators would be arrested and hauled away in handcuffs. Any larger legal battle regarding seizure or confiscation of goods which infringe upon IP would be waged first and foremost in the courtrooms, and only after a rendered verdict would HasTak begin to have any legal standing to direct the *police* to seize the goods in question, and in all likelihood the verdict would just dictate that the 3rd party companies can no longer market those goods. Actual seizures are very rare, since even though HasTak owns the IP, the 3rd party companies own the materials that went into making the finished products.

Parts partys will not rule, 3rd Party Emporiums will!

some of the comments ive been reading really make me chuckle.

HASBRO ARE DOING THIS BECAUSE THEYRE JEALOUS, THIRD PARTY COMPANIES PRODUCE BETTER STUFF THAN THEY DO - No they arent, they dont give a **** at all. Theyre a multi-billion company that has to follow safety restrictions and budgeting concerns for the hundreds of different toys they make each year, third parties arent restricted and produce a handful of high end toys so the system is totally different

ITS A HASBRO CONSPIRACY - No it isnt and thats just stupid

ITS THE DEATH OF BOTCON - No it isnt, you just have to order your stuff online and not in the dealer room, hardly the end of the world


Long and short of it is Transformers is a Hasbro IP and Botcon is a hasbro licensed event. Selling toys from companies that have wholesale ripped off their property, allowing them to make money and be promoted at a Hasbro event is taking the piss. Engineering be damned, box art be damned, they are making transforming plastic robots based on Hasbro owned characters. Its their party and they are entitled to do this. there wont be jackbooted stormtroopers with hasbro logos confiscating third party toys at the event, its just saying the sales and promotion of third parties is not allowed.

I know its the in thing to call them Hasblow (which is seriously moronic) and act like theyre the evil corporation, but theyre a business (and please point me to a toy company that doesnt come across as a bunch of arseholes some of the time) and theyre sick of being ripped off and the companies rubbing it in their faces, i dont blame them. And this is coming from a self confessed whore for third party stuff

GetRightRobot wrote:And just a general comment, PERSONALLY, I don't collect cool transforming robots. I collect TRANSFORMERS and most of my buying decisions are based on the character, not the toy. If it is a Character (or not-character) I really don't care who makes it. I want to throw 100% support to Has/Tak, but right now, they just aren't selling me. Now the new MP Sideswipe, most of the WFC, ofcourse, sold.

Interesting, I'm somehow the opposite. I guess I collect transforming robots because I don't pay too much attention to the character. I mean, I would buy an obscure figure as long as its is cool and well done. I am kind of tired to see always optimus, bumblebee, megatron and starscream. I really wish new ideas were coming up.

As a matter of fact, I have a question: if a company make a whole new character with unique colors and design, unique name, own faction (or no faction, an outcast, no autobot, no decepticon) but still inside the transformers universe (I mean, some new figure that the bio in the box somehow link it to unicron, primus etc), would that still be a problem?

Che wrote:As a matter of fact, I have a question: if a company make a whole new character with unique colors and design, unique name, own faction (or no faction, an outcast, no autobot, no decepticon) but still inside the transformers universe (I mean, some new figure that the bio in the box somehow link it to unicron, primus etc), would that still be a problem?

Yes it would be. The fact that "Transformers" or any other name linked to it by trademark would be mentioned, yes that would be a BIG problem. Why do you think the 3rd party figures carry such bland generic names? Just to be clear, you can't claim copyright on names, but you can claim copyright on what you create, that includes fiction like back stories and characters.

In my view, the ban of non-official products is not only Hasbro's right, or duty, it's their responsibility to enforce it. Given what I just said above, and the fact 3rd party products are not linked to Hasbro or TakaraTomy at all, legal or in fiction, Hasbro has every single right to refuse them to be sold, and I'm not gonna fight them on their turf.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Yes it would be. The fact that "Transformers" or any other name linked to it by trademark would be mentioned, yes that would be a BIG problem. Why do you think the 3rd party figures carry such bland generic names? Just to be clear, you can't claim copyright on names, but you can claim copyright on what you create, that includes fiction like back stories and characters.

Yes, of course, I understand that you can't mess with trademark (that's why I even thought of it being an outcast inside that universe), but I was thinking about that thin gray line between what would be original and what would be illegal. In this scenario, the whole character would be new, an addition to that universe, the only thing linking it to that universe being the bio (and even so slightly). That would be much less mess with copyrights than trying to sell fanfictions or hercules). I am saying that because a contribution like that seems to me more reasonable than create a whole new parallel universe with ridiculous names for similar characters (like, for example, Secondus instead of Primus =P) just to avoid copyrights.

But anyway, ideally, I would like to see new things like ARMARAUDERS, which I really hope it will works. The idea of transforming robots doesn't belong to anyone, only transformers robot, so be creative guys. And although I think $600 is too much (and that's the only reason I don't get a hercules), I would be willing to pay more for things like armarauders since I don't buy quantity anyway.

Che wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:Yes it would be. The fact that "Transformers" or any other name linked to it by trademark would be mentioned, yes that would be a BIG problem. Why do you think the 3rd party figures carry such bland generic names? Just to be clear, you can't claim copyright on names, but you can claim copyright on what you create, that includes fiction like back stories and characters.

Yes, of course, I understand that you can't mess with trademark (that's why I even thought of it being an outcast inside that universe), but I was thinking about that thin gray line between what would be original and what would be illegal. In this scenario, the whole character would be new, an addition to that universe, the only thing linking it to that universe being the bio (and even so slightly). That would be much less mess with copyrights than trying to sell fanfictions or hercules). I am saying that because a contribution like that seems to me more reasonable than create a whole new parallel universe with ridiculous names for similar characters (like, for example, Secondus instead of Primus =P) just to avoid copyrights.

Any link, no matter how small, will be prosecuted, that's what Hasbro's lawyers are for. If the intention can be confirmed, they *will* confirm it.

Che wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:And just a general comment, PERSONALLY, I don't collect cool transforming robots. I collect TRANSFORMERS and most of my buying decisions are based on the character, not the toy. If it is a Character (or not-character) I really don't care who makes it. I want to throw 100% support to Has/Tak, but right now, they just aren't selling me. Now the new MP Sideswipe, most of the WFC, ofcourse, sold.

Interesting, I'm somehow the opposite. I guess I collect transforming robots because I don't pay too much attention to the character. I mean, I would buy an obscure figure as long as its is cool and well done. I am kind of tired to see always optimus, bumblebee, megatron and starscream. I really wish new ideas were coming up.

As a matter of fact, I have a question: if a company make a whole new character with unique colors and design, unique name, own faction (or no faction, an outcast, no autobot, no decepticon) but still inside the transformers universe (I mean, some new figure that the bio in the box somehow link it to unicron, primus etc), would that still be a problem?

Is Drift a problem?

Ack, this is bad. Though I think Hasbro/Takara can legally do this, it still points in a rather unsatisfactory direction for the future of 3rd party companies.

Flak you, Hasbro, 3rd party Shockwave, here I come!

RhA wrote:

Che wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:And just a general comment, PERSONALLY, I don't collect cool transforming robots. I collect TRANSFORMERS and most of my buying decisions are based on the character, not the toy. If it is a Character (or not-character) I really don't care who makes it. I want to throw 100% support to Has/Tak, but right now, they just aren't selling me. Now the new MP Sideswipe, most of the WFC, ofcourse, sold.

Interesting, I'm somehow the opposite. I guess I collect transforming robots because I don't pay too much attention to the character. I mean, I would buy an obscure figure as long as its is cool and well done. I am kind of tired to see always optimus, bumblebee, megatron and starscream. I really wish new ideas were coming up.

As a matter of fact, I have a question: if a company make a whole new character with unique colors and design, unique name, own faction (or no faction, an outcast, no autobot, no decepticon) but still inside the transformers universe (I mean, some new figure that the bio in the box somehow link it to unicron, primus etc), would that still be a problem?

Is Drift a problem?

No, because he was drawn for a Transformers comic, thus became part of Hasbro's IP. Death's Head however, is Marvel property.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

RhA wrote:

Che wrote:

GetRightRobot wrote:And just a general comment, PERSONALLY, I don't collect cool transforming robots. I collect TRANSFORMERS and most of my buying decisions are based on the character, not the toy. If it is a Character (or not-character) I really don't care who makes it. I want to throw 100% support to Has/Tak, but right now, they just aren't selling me. Now the new MP Sideswipe, most of the WFC, ofcourse, sold.

Interesting, I'm somehow the opposite. I guess I collect transforming robots because I don't pay too much attention to the character. I mean, I would buy an obscure figure as long as its is cool and well done. I am kind of tired to see always optimus, bumblebee, megatron and starscream. I really wish new ideas were coming up.

As a matter of fact, I have a question: if a company make a whole new character with unique colors and design, unique name, own faction (or no faction, an outcast, no autobot, no decepticon) but still inside the transformers universe (I mean, some new figure that the bio in the box somehow link it to unicron, primus etc), would that still be a problem?

Is Drift a problem?

No, because he was drawn for a Transformers comic, thus became part of Hasbro's IP. Death's Head however, is Marvel property.

To clarify: the smilieface indicates a tongue-in-cheek intention.

RhA wrote::lol: Is Drift a problem?

Forgot that!
Drift is the official outcast

Burn wrote:Never understood why with all these 3rd party companies out there and all their rabid supporters who are so anti-Hasbro that they've never bothered to develop their own universe, their own characters, something that will set them completely apart from Hasbro and Transformers.

Oh wait, that would require originality, and it's so much easier to rip off an existing character that someone else owns.

when one looks at hexatron,hercules/giant or any or the other 3rd party offerings they clearly know what they are doing and that is creating something that instantly reminds collectors of figures they either have now or had and want for their classics collection.while i myself am a fan of the 3rd party efforts they do lack alot of creativity/originality.
personally im not mad at hasbro for this at all and would still be going if this cc fiasco didnt happen.
the only issue i have is the siezure of items as these are paid for and owned by the sellers.can you imagine if some got their shadow scythe or hercules confiscated

Che wrote:

RhA wrote::lol: Is Drift a problem?

Forgot that!
Drift is the official outcast

I suspect the primary motivation for this is to keep third party prototypes (such as those exhibited by TFSource last year) off of display at BotCon so there's much less chance of whatever new products Hasbro announces being upstaged. I seriously doubt any third party folks would want to take a chance on their expensive protos ending up in a trophy case in Pawtucket.

I suspect the issues surrounding third party products are going to continue to grow more complex as quality rises and cost decreases... to say nothing of what improvements in 3-D printing technology will do for our collections. In the future, we may be downloading our toys, either to print at home or at a neighborhood printing center.

I'm not sure how well or quickly Hasbro is going to be able to adapt to that sort of radically different paradigm. The manner with which they've tried to handle the concptual challenges posed by third party products does not fill me with optimism in this regard.

I suspect most of these problems come from the excessively bureaucratic nature of large corporations. I've recently been reading Scott Neitlich's "Director's Commentary" on Mattel's online exclusive He-Man line; it really gives you an idea of how difficult it is to innovate under the watchful eyes of senior management who have to keep the stockholders happy.

Hasbro could really use a Steve Jobs right about now.

I suppose they should take comfort that record labels still exist, albeit in a radically diminished capacity.

Also a number of members of the fandom need to freshen up on their Machiavelli before they offer analysis of this whole boondoggle.

Enlightened self interest, y'all. Learn what it is for you, and then work towards it (and expect both Hasbro and third party manufacturers to do the same).

(This comment is much more from my observation of some of the commentary on the megathread at TFW2005 than the commentary here.)

Edit: This TED talk is quite germane and timely to this discussion:

metaphorge wrote:to say nothing of what improvements in 3-D printing technology will do for our collections. In the future, we may be downloading our toys, either to print at home or at a neighborhood printing center.

I don't really have much hope for this concept. The process of "professional" painting and design would still be desired and having something produced singularly will always cost horrendously more than producing in bulk in some pseudo-capitalist, communist country.

The issue to me here is they state that the majority of their profits come from children under 13 and they treat the Club as just something to throw the collectors market a bone, yet they treat 3rd party companies as if they are somehow capable of damaging their profits. Legal implications aside they simply should not care.

metaphorge wrote:Enlightened self interest, y'all. Learn what it is for you, and then work towards it (and expect both Hasbro and third party manufacturers to do the same).

I like that. I don't like when people are passive like "ah, that's how the things are, no point to discuss, move on..." Nobody is innocent (not me, not you, not consumers, not HasTak and not 3rd companies) and the best is to pursue what you want and being critical of what you see or told.

The video is fun, by the way.

Vicalliose wrote:The issue to me here is they state that the majority of their profits come from children under 13 and they treat the Club as just something to throw the collectors market a bone, yet they treat 3rd party companies as if they are somehow capable of damaging their profits. Legal implications aside they simply should not care.

Yeah, I don't get that too. If you look Hasbro's toys in general, including franchises like star wars, gi, marvel, sure transformers collectors is probably small for Hasbro's profits, but looking only the transformers franchise, I would like to see some honest numbers. Otherwise, if the collectors were such insignificant thing, why to spend time and money at all with alternators, encore etc.