The Energon Pub

I was wondering who created Alpha Trion? Was it Primus or Vector Sigma? Any thoughts?

Also who was the leader of the Decepticons BEFORE Megatron?

Which continuity?

Which ever one or ones that shed light about the history or background on them.

Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. The other known Original 13 are Prima, Vector Prime, Maccadam, Liege Maximo, and the Fallen. There is some speculation that "The Last Autobot" whether may be Vector Prime or another of the Orginal 13 (his appearance and vehicle mode is very similar to Vector Prime's, and Vector Prime's original head design was also going to mimmick the Autobot symbol, just like "The Last Autobot".) Another possible member, may be Beta given she was a contemporary of Alpha Trion's That makes six definiate members, and possibly 8 total named members of the Original 13.

No one commanded the Decepticons before Megs. He was the founder of them. Many have followed, but none came before.

Insurgent wrote:No one commanded the Decepticons before Megs. He was the founder of them. Many have followed, but none came before.

That isn't entirely true. Megatron may have "named" the Decepticons and started the revolution, but the Decepticons themselves, including Megatron descend from Liege Maximo, one of the Original 13. Magatron was the one who organized them and gave them a name, then started the great War.

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:No one commanded the Decepticons before Megs. He was the founder of them. Many have followed, but none came before.

That isn't entirely true. Megatron may have "named" the Decepticons and started the revolution, but the Decepticons themselves, including Megatron descend from Liege Maximo, one of the Original 13. Magatron was the one who organized them and gave them a name, then started the great War.

But SentinelPrime878 didn't ask where they came from, he asked who leaded them before Megs. And if Megs organised them, gave them the name and started the war, how could anyone lead them before him? I suppose you could say as they were decended from the Leige, then they must have had a leader, but they were not official Decepticons until Megs came along.

Wow.

That's the quickest I've seen a question answered.

Insurgent wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:No one commanded the Decepticons before Megs. He was the founder of them. Many have followed, but none came before.

That isn't entirely true. Megatron may have "named" the Decepticons and started the revolution, but the Decepticons themselves, including Megatron descend from Liege Maximo, one of the Original 13. Magatron was the one who organized them and gave them a name, then started the great War.

But SentinelPrime878 didn't ask where they came from, he asked who leaded them before Megs. And if Megs organised them, gave them the name and started the war, how could anyone lead them before him? I suppose you could say as they were decended from the Leige, then they must have had a leader, but they were not official Decepticons until Megs came along.

They did. Most, if not all of the Decepticons hail from the city-state of Kaon in the south polar region of Cybertron, a region infected by Unicron's corruption during the first great battle against him and the Fallen. IT is a place of malcontents, reactionaries, radicals, and the most violent Transformers. The Liege Maximo too was corrupted, and it is he who is the direct ancestor of Megatron. Megatron united the Decepticons into a fighting force, and gave them a name, but they existed long before descending from Liege Maximo and his followers in Kaon. The Liege maximo himself left Cybertron eons ago, residing in a place called "The Hub", according to the Marvel Generation 2 comics.

In the G1 cartoon, Alpha Trion was one of the earliest Autobots, who lead the revolt against the Quintessons. He then learnt how to grow a beard before rebuilding Orion Pax into Optimus Prime.

Tramp wrote:Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. The other known Original 13 are Prima, Vector Prime, Maccadam, Liege Maximo, and the Fallen. There is some speculation that "The Last Autobot" whether may be Vector Prime or another of the Orginal 13 (his appearance and vehicle mode is very similar to Vector Prime's, and Vector Prime's original head design was also going to mimmick the Autobot symbol, just like "The Last Autobot".) Another possible member, may be Beta given she was a contemporary of Alpha Trion's That makes six definiate members, and possibly 8 total named members of the Original 13.

Not entirely true, Alpha Trion is old but he's probably around Nova Prime's time. Maccadam is not an original, it's just a legend around Cybertron.

If Alpha Trion was an original, he wouldn't need Optimus or anyone else.

When it comes to backstory, I would never trust the Ultimate guide...

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:

Tramp wrote:

Insurgent wrote:No one commanded the Decepticons before Megs. He was the founder of them. Many have followed, but none came before.

That isn't entirely true. Megatron may have "named" the Decepticons and started the revolution, but the Decepticons themselves, including Megatron descend from Liege Maximo, one of the Original 13. Magatron was the one who organized them and gave them a name, then started the great War.

But SentinelPrime878 didn't ask where they came from, he asked who leaded them before Megs. And if Megs organised them, gave them the name and started the war, how could anyone lead them before him? I suppose you could say as they were decended from the Leige, then they must have had a leader, but they were not official Decepticons until Megs came along.

They did. Most, if not all of the Decepticons hail from the city-state of Kaon in the south polar region of Cybertron, a region infected by Unicron's corruption during the first great battle against him and the Fallen. IT is a place of malcontents, reactionaries, radicals, and the most violent Transformers. The Liege Maximo too was corrupted, and it is he who is the direct ancestor of Megatron. Megatron united the Decepticons into a fighting force, and gave them a name, but they existed long before descending from Liege Maximo and his followers in Kaon. The Liege maximo himself left Cybertron eons ago, residing in a place called "The Hub", according to the Marvel Generation 2 comics.

What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

Thanatos Prime wrote:

Tramp wrote:Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. The other known Original 13 are Prima, Vector Prime, Maccadam, Liege Maximo, and the Fallen. There is some speculation that "The Last Autobot" whether may be Vector Prime or another of the Orginal 13 (his appearance and vehicle mode is very similar to Vector Prime's, and Vector Prime's original head design was also going to mimmick the Autobot symbol, just like "The Last Autobot".) Another possible member, may be Beta given she was a contemporary of Alpha Trion's That makes six definiate members, and possibly 8 total named members of the Original 13.

Not entirely true, Alpha Trion is old but he's probably around Nova Prime's time. Maccadam is not an original, it's just a legend around Cybertron.

If Alpha Trion was an original, he wouldn't need Optimus or anyone else.

When it comes to backstory, I would never trust the Ultimate guide...

I do. It is the essential TF source. Also it is Alpha Trion's bio in Mote than Meets the Eye #1 by DW that states he is believed to be one of the Original 13. Itthe very first sentence in his bio states, "Considered only a myth by many, Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the first Transformers." According to the Ultimate Guide, Alpha Trion was Primus' guardian at the Well of All Sparks, through whom Primus maintained vigil over his "children" until his direct link was severed as a result of an invasion by an alien force, presumably the Quintessans. Alpha Trion then became guardian of Vector Sigma, which may even be the very brain of Primus himself. Maccadam is also named as one of the Original 13 in the Ultimate Guide. These are canon sources, so, if they say that these two are members of the Original 13, then that is what they are.

Insurgent wrote:
What exactly are you saying here? I am not saying the Decepticon (or those bots that would become them) did not exist before Megs turned them into the army. I'm saying they didn't exist as Decepticons before Megs turned up. They were there, they were malcontent, but they couldn't have been led by anyone because the faction didn't exist. And how can a faction be led before it is created?

Or should I just ignore everything I know about Decepticons and say someone else created them other than Megs?

The Faction existed as far back as Liege Maximo, but it wasn't a true power with a name until Megatron. Thus, the original leader of the Decepticons—as a people—was the Leige Maximo. He laid the foundation, Megatron turned them into an army and started a revolt.

Tramp wrote:

Thanatos Prime wrote:

Tramp wrote:Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. The other known Original 13 are Prima, Vector Prime, Maccadam, Liege Maximo, and the Fallen. There is some speculation that "The Last Autobot" whether may be Vector Prime or another of the Orginal 13 (his appearance and vehicle mode is very similar to Vector Prime's, and Vector Prime's original head design was also going to mimmick the Autobot symbol, just like "The Last Autobot".) Another possible member, may be Beta given she was a contemporary of Alpha Trion's That makes six definiate members, and possibly 8 total named members of the Original 13.

Not entirely true, Alpha Trion is old but he's probably around Nova Prime's time. Maccadam is not an original, it's just a legend around Cybertron.

If Alpha Trion was an original, he wouldn't need Optimus or anyone else.

When it comes to backstory, I would never trust the Ultimate guide...

I do. It is the essential TF source. Also it is Alpha Trion's bio in Mote than Meets the Eye #1 by DW that states he is believed to be one of the Original 13. Itthe very first sentence in his bio states, "Considered only a myth by many, Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the first Transformers." According to the Ultimate Guide, Alpha Trion was Primus' guardian at the Well of All Sparks, through whom Primus maintained vigil over his "children" until his direct link was severed as a result of an invasion by an alien force, presumably the Quintessans. Alpha Trion then became guardian of Vector Sigma, which may even be the very brain of Primus himself. Maccadam is also named as one of the Original 13 in the Ultimate Guide. These are canon sources, so, if they say that these two are members of the Original 13, then that is what they are.

Maccadam is not an Original 13, I'll even quote from the Ultimate guide that is almost entirely backwards when it comes to the pre-1984 era.

It's rumored that the mysterious and rarely seen manager is one of the Original 13 transformers...

Your canon source even says it's a big maybe, not to mention it never says the manager is Maccadam...

The Ulimate guide follows the DW continuity. DW went bankrupt and so did their continuity, the guide is almost worthless except for the exceptional artwork...

Why do I sense this turning into a pointless argument that ends in thread lock?

Sledge wrote:Why do I sense this turning into a pointless argument that ends in thread lock?

Because, the tf universe's backstory is full of enough contradictions and plot holes that even simon furman is probably confused...

Thanatos Prime wrote:Maccadam is not an Original 13, I'll even quote from the Ultimate guide that is almost entirely backwards when it comes to the pre-1984 era.

It's rumored that the mysterious and rarely seen manager is one of the Original 13 transformers...

Your canon source even says it's a big maybe, not to mention it never says the manager is Maccadam...

The Ulimate guide follows the DW continuity. DW went bankrupt and so did their continuity, the guide is almost worthless except for the exceptional artwork...

Maccadam is the only name we have for him, and considering that the name of the bar is Maccadam's Old Oil House, pretty well established that his name is Maccadam. Secondly, DW not having tyhe license anymore does not discount its varacity. IF that were the case, then the Marvel material wouldn't be canon either, nor the original cartoon. As sledge said though, let's not let this turn into a pointless debate.

Tramp wrote:

Thanatos Prime wrote:Maccadam is not an Original 13, I'll even quote from the Ultimate guide that is almost entirely backwards when it comes to the pre-1984 era.

It's rumored that the mysterious and rarely seen manager is one of the Original 13 transformers...

Your canon source even says it's a big maybe, not to mention it never says the manager is Maccadam...

The Ulimate guide follows the DW continuity. DW went bankrupt and so did their continuity, the guide is almost worthless except for the exceptional artwork...

Maccadam is the only name we have for him, and considering that the name of the bar is Maccadam's Old Oil House, pretty well established that his name is Maccadam. Secondly, DW not having tyhe license anymore does not discount its varacity. IF that were the case, then the Marvel material wouldn't be canon either, nor the original cartoon. As sledge said though, let's not let this turn into a pointless debate.

There's no winning on either side. Almost any answer is correct, with all the different backstories. We'll just agree to disagree.

Yawn. Why do any of us bother asking anything anymore? Tip for the future: just ask Tramp. He has a copy of the outdated, DW continuity-focused Ultimate Guide and can paraphrase its self-contradicting contents ad nauseum without any attempt to confirm said contents or any attempts to increase his knowledge or begin to consider any other point of view.

However, just in case he's not the second coming and is maybe fallible, I'll throw my headmaster into the ring and mention a few things.

I don't recall any sources in any continuity mentioning Alpha Trion having a creator. Obviously somewhere along the line Primus/Vector Sigma/Simon Furman/whatever is involved, but there's been little to say whether he is meant to be one of the original 13 transformers (itself a recent retcon) or if he's just a very old one from the more modern era of lifeforms on Cybertron. Personally I'd suspect he's not one of the originals, mainly because, as wise as he is, he never really seems that powerful.
As for the Decepticons prior to Megatron taking over, in the Marvel comics (the UK continuity at least) I think it was written at one point that Straxus had something to do with forming the faction. Either that or maybe another kind of high-ranking megalomaniac type (I'm thinking the name Deceptus or something, but that might just be my mind playing tricks on me) who gathered the group, but it was Megatron seizing power and organising what was effectively a political anti-Autobot group into a terrorist and then conquering military power.

Thanatos Prime wrote:

Tramp wrote:Alpha Trion is believed to be one of the Original 13 created by Primus himself. The other known Original 13 are Prima, Vector Prime, Maccadam, Liege Maximo, and the Fallen. There is some speculation that "The Last Autobot" whether may be Vector Prime or another of the Orginal 13 (his appearance and vehicle mode is very similar to Vector Prime's, and Vector Prime's original head design was also going to mimmick the Autobot symbol, just like "The Last Autobot".) Another possible member, may be Beta given she was a contemporary of Alpha Trion's That makes six definiate members, and possibly 8 total named members of the Original 13.

Not entirely true, Alpha Trion is old but he's probably around Nova Prime's time. Maccadam is not an original, it's just a legend around Cybertron.

If Alpha Trion was an original, he wouldn't need Optimus or anyone else.

When it comes to backstory, I would never trust the Ultimate guide...

Agree with all of Thanatos Prime on this one.

The only real mention of the rumour that Maccadam was one of the original 13 was in the Ultimate Guide. Nothing written before or afterwards has said anything else either.

That is only because he is never really mentioned before or since. The Ultimate guide does mentuion him as a member of the Original 13 though. Maccadamm is an extremely ancinet Transformer who runs a bar that supposedly exists outside of time and space. Only one of the Original 13 could be capable of that.

Tramp wrote:That is only because he is never really mentioned before or since. The Ultimate guide does mentuion him as a member of the Original 13 though. Maccadamm is an extremely ancinet Transformer who runs a bar that supposedly exists outside of time and space. Only one of the Original 13 could be capable of that.

It's all rumour though, as Thanatos quoted from the actual Ultimate Guide:

It's rumored that the mysterious and rarely seen manager is one of the Original 13 transformers...

It is speaking "in Universe". Most Transformers don't know the identities of the Original 13. Their identities were, for the most part, lost to time. Thus, thew book isn't referring to real life rumor, it is referring to rumor among the Transformers themselves. The in universe "rumor" is actual fact from a story perspective. He is one of the Original 13, but as far as most Transformers know, it is just a rumor because they don't know much about their own origins and history. To them it's mostly legend.

so basically Tramp, what you're doing, is once again, talking crap.