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Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Fri Jun 19, 2020 1:51 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.

As for the magic the gathering thing, they've been censoring cards since the days of the original unholy strength, this is hardly suprising.


It wasn't "left vs right". It was "remainers vs brexiters". Different labels, same story.

As for MTG, Wizard of the Coast is made out of spineless snake people who twist and bend to the will of the most powerful. Remember when there was no longer Demons? Christians banned them and the "demons" were replaced by "beasts". Then there's that "Xancha's lesbian adventures" in the novels who were cut short when China complained.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby High Command » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:01 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.


You're right it wasn't along a left/right split. Still other trends were clearly identified young/old particularly also between the 4 nations. I'm not convinced the remoaner/gammon split has gone away either.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:17 pm

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High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.


You're right it wasn't along a left/right split. Still other trends were clearly identified young/old particularly also between the 4 nations. I'm not convinced the remoaner/gammon split has gone away either.

Funnily enough I was interviewed for a segment on BBC Radio 4 for a few months and compared to others living on the same street (can't quite remember why my old street was chosen) and I saw the divides there between ages and education levels.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby High Command » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:25 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:
High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.


You're right it wasn't along a left/right split. Still other trends were clearly identified young/old particularly also between the 4 nations. I'm not convinced the remoaner/gammon split has gone away either.

Funnily enough I was interviewed for a segment on BBC Radio 4 for a few months and compared to others living on the same street (can't quite remember why my old street was chosen) and I saw the divides there between ages and education levels.


I can't think of anyone I know over 60 who didn't vote for brexit and I can't think of anyone under 40 who did. Can't say I've personally seen the education split myself but have read the data that backs that up. I'm just waiting for a rejoin party to form.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:43 pm

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High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:
High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.


You're right it wasn't along a left/right split. Still other trends were clearly identified young/old particularly also between the 4 nations. I'm not convinced the remoaner/gammon split has gone away either.

Funnily enough I was interviewed for a segment on BBC Radio 4 for a few months and compared to others living on the same street (can't quite remember why my old street was chosen) and I saw the divides there between ages and education levels.


I can't think of anyone I know over 60 who didn't vote for brexit and I can't think of anyone under 40 who did. Can't say I've personally seen the education split myself but have read the data that backs that up. I'm just waiting for a rejoin party to form.

The second they do, the media will jump on them, look at the press reaction to the judges that ruled that Brexit had to be passed by Parliament or those mps who did try to form their own group.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Fri Jun 19, 2020 3:56 pm

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California repeal proposition 209 affirmation amendment
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Repe ... ment_(2020)

Wow. Just. Wow.

Americans, I hope you're proud of yourselves. As a Canadian, I'm pretty horrified of what the USA is changing into. Because if the USA sneeze, we catch a cold.

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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby High Command » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:23 pm

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ZeroWolf wrote:
High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:
High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.


You're right it wasn't along a left/right split. Still other trends were clearly identified young/old particularly also between the 4 nations. I'm not convinced the remoaner/gammon split has gone away either.

Funnily enough I was interviewed for a segment on BBC Radio 4 for a few months and compared to others living on the same street (can't quite remember why my old street was chosen) and I saw the divides there between ages and education levels.


I can't think of anyone I know over 60 who didn't vote for brexit and I can't think of anyone under 40 who did. Can't say I've personally seen the education split myself but have read the data that backs that up. I'm just waiting for a rejoin party to form.

The second they do, the media will jump on them, look at the press reaction to the judges that ruled that Brexit had to be passed by Parliament or those mps who did try to form their own group.


The only way I could see it working would be to start it as a deliberate satire and try to be as annoying as possible to brexit voting people. Make up all sorts of outlandish claims, like Spain promising everyone who votes to rejoin the EU a free house with swimming pool.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby ZeroWolf » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:27 pm

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High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:
High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:
High Command wrote:
ZeroWolf wrote:I only say it wasn't a culture war because people on both sides of the left/right divide actually voted for Brexit in the first place. I mean isn't that what a culture war comes down to? Us vs them, right vs left etc etc.


You're right it wasn't along a left/right split. Still other trends were clearly identified young/old particularly also between the 4 nations. I'm not convinced the remoaner/gammon split has gone away either.

Funnily enough I was interviewed for a segment on BBC Radio 4 for a few months and compared to others living on the same street (can't quite remember why my old street was chosen) and I saw the divides there between ages and education levels.


I can't think of anyone I know over 60 who didn't vote for brexit and I can't think of anyone under 40 who did. Can't say I've personally seen the education split myself but have read the data that backs that up. I'm just waiting for a rejoin party to form.

The second they do, the media will jump on them, look at the press reaction to the judges that ruled that Brexit had to be passed by Parliament or those mps who did try to form their own group.


The only way I could see it working would be to start it as a deliberate satire and try to be as annoying as possible to brexit voting people. Make up all sorts of outlandish claims, like Spain promising everyone who votes to rejoin the EU a free house with swimming pool.

Well claims like that helped sell Brexit :lol:
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Absolute Zero » Fri Jun 19, 2020 4:40 pm

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ShadowKatt wrote:I read your post earlier and I wanted to take some time to think of a response. I don't like speaking off the cuff, I like to consider my words before I use them. I was drafting my response in my head while I was browsing through the news and now I feel like all that time was wasted because I saw something that encapsulated everything wrong with it in a single article.

https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/features/diversity-and-dnd

Just in case you dont want to read it, this is essentially a public release from WotC explaining how their depictions of orcs and drow have been culturally insensitive and they're going to change things to do better. This is a FANTASY GAME. The humans are just humans. The elves are just elves. The dwarves are just dwarves. And the orcs are just orcs. This is why the public collectively groans every time a big corperation decides to hop on board the bandwagon, because eventually it turns to the customers, the hobbyists, or just the fans and tell us that our hobby, which for so long was just fine, is now bad and now it has to change. And if you're against that change, well that makes you bad too.

They just did the same thing with Magic the Gathering. A game about monsters and magic, factions, guilds, and alliances, warfare and conquest across different dimensions and planes, and now they're purging their collections of anything that could ever be remotely misconstrued as racist or problematic. Cards like Crusade, which in a deck of white creatures(Mostly knights, soldiers, and priests) gives them more attack and defense. Because of the cultural implications, it's not only being banned but removed from any further prints and recalled from retail sales. This is insanity.

Several people earlier made a joke about Prowl being left in the image Hasbro put out because we all expected that he would be removed. There are still people calling for him to be removed from that image if you look at Hasbro's social media, no matter what platform. And what's next, are they going to pull Prowl from retail sales? Just tell any store that has Prowl on the shelves to either return or trash them. How about removing the character from the upcoming cartoon? Why not pull all the older cartoons and release an edited "SPECIAL EDITION" with no Prowl in it. You know, like the soviets used to do with people that disappeared in the middle of the night.

THIS is why people don't want corperate entities to get involved. I don't care about celebrities or athletes, they're people, they can do what they want. Businesses exist to provide a product or service and EVERY SINGLE TIME this comes up it ends one of two ways: Either they pay lip service and they get accused of not doing enough or they go the other extreme and start destroying and sanitizing their entire business lest they be branded the next problematic entity, even though the action of doing so is just going to be taken as evidence that they were already a problematic entity.

We have some real **** problems in this world. Forget police, lets call it athoritarian overreach and abuse as a whole so we can cover law enforcement, courts, judges, and everyone else that falls under that umbrella. We have class disparities in this world that leave people **** starving when we could be doing more to help boost their infrastructure and quality of life. Don't even have to leave the country for that, we could start with our own homeless populations. But instead we get **** THIS. Orcs are racist. Drow are racist. I'm sure if they pull their head out of their ass long enough to remember the Duergar, THEY'LL be racist. Trading cards are racist. Transformers are racist. I am so **** DONE with this whole thing.

You want to have some kind of discussion and change you need to start with THIS. And I'm sorry if I'm not coming off as my normal, more reserved and eloquent self but right now I am **** apoplectic with rage. You want to fight for equal civil rights, I **** promise you this isn't helping, because it's making people like me look at the whole movement and say to hell with it. Dungeons and Dragons has NOTHING to do with police brutality. Magic the Gathering has NOTHING to do with criminal injustice in the court system. Transformers has NOTHING to do with wealth disparity in marginalized communities. But the people **** BENT on finding racism in EVERYTHING will find it whereever they can and then shame those people into submission.

If you somehow think that I'm going to be swayed or guilted into joining your cause because you've found a way to impact my hobbies, the things I use to temporarily escape this and recharge to come back and fight the good fight, then you're wrong. And I don't mean to direct this at you personally. But this ranks right up there with someone, because I happen to play a trading card game, walking up to me and screaming "RACIST" and then pulling the cards out of my hands because they're problmatic. That's not how you make an ally. That's how you make enemies. If someone's **** hobby makes you uncomfortable because you think it's racist and it's NOT carving little swastika shaped flutes, you need some god damn counseling.

Rant over.

First off. Take a deep breath. Don't post in rage.

Second. I read your link. Once you calm down, I'd suggest rereading it in a detached and objective manner.

Now, there's a lot to unpack here. Starting with M:TG. I like that you chose the crusade card, and not the card that had dudes that looked like they were wearing KKK hoods and burning a cross in the background. I understand on it's face why you wouldn't have any problems with a card called crusade. Crusades are a touchy subject. The west largely downplays it as simply a war between religious factions. And to an extent it was. Except the portrayal of Muslims has largely been more inaccurate than the portrayal of the knights and holy armies. There's a lot of history, but I'm going to break it down simply. Brown people under one religion were in control of the Middle East. They had a very progressive society. They didn't oppress people based on religion; you were free to practice whatever religion you wanted. You just had to pay a tax. This aspect continued all the way up to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. But back on target. The brown people also had advanced mathematics (we use their numbers today this 5 is a Arabic number/character) and had clockworks and fire proof armor and a bunch of other really neat stuff that has to be rediscovered because of the Crusades and other problems after. The white people came angry that brown people were in their holy land and charging taxes for them to pray and war were declared. White people claimed the land as holy because their white washed savior came from there (they ignore that he was not white) and raged. They mostly lost. They won a few times, but mostly lost. Sometimes before they even got there. But when they did get there, hoo boy did they do some evil stuff. There's stories told gleefully about these holy knights killing women and children for sport, and playing a particularly gruesome game of tossing babies up and catching them on their pikes and lances. So, you might want to think about that as to why crusades might be considered culturally insensitive at the least and racist at the worst (I personally view it as casually racist, because most people probably are not aware of history).

OK. Over to D&D. There's a very specific subset of players who don't care about the backgrounds and don't look for depth in their games. We call them murder hobos, because they only care about killing everything. D&D is littered with casual racism, and if you reread that article, you'll see they point that out. Drow are inherently evil and racist matriarchal and all black. Something happened earlier in 5e, where some of the drow were forgiven and their skin lightened up; because black people are evil. Drow society looks like a caricature of what white men think a matriarchal society looks like. As more people in a variety of colors and genders come into the game to play, why should they not have representation? Why should they see the only matriarchal society that exists in almost all the settings as being evil where the women all abuse the men under them? Why should all of the non-white races be inherently evil and they all have to play a Drizzt clone to be able to play a non-white race? As for Orcs, their society makes little sense, aside from the fact they're based on caricatures of tribal societies. Humans are the best race. They're adaptive, they learn quick, they often get extra skills and feats just for being human. The explanation is that humans live shorter lives than the other races, so that makes them some how more adaptable and industrious. Orcs have the same life span. Why are they brutes and racist and incapable of making anything remotely good for armor or weapons? It's not like they live in an isolated society. Why is their -one- god evil? Humans have like 100 gods of varying alignments, Orcs get one evil god. Drow even have a good god.

Western fantasy is built on casual racism and us vs them. When you don't have the literal light skinned people being good vs the dark skinned people being bad, you have the industrialized people who live in large cities are evil and people who live in rural areas are bad. I'm not saying all of it is that way, but more than enough of it is, and a lot of the things that break those molds are recent editions.

You admitted casual racism is just as bad as racism. This is casual racism. And as more than just white men begin picking up and gaining interest in these things, they shouldn't feel alienated.

I'm sorry you feel your hobbies are under attack, but I've been playing D&D for decades, and I honestly do not see your problem here.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby ShadowKatt » Fri Jun 19, 2020 5:31 pm

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Absolute Zero wrote:First off. Take a deep breath. Don't post in rage.

Second. I read your link. Once you calm down, I'd suggest rereading it in a detached and objective manner.

Now, there's a lot to unpack here. Starting with M:TG. I like that you chose the crusade card, and not the card that had dudes that looked like they were wearing KKK hoods and burning a cross in the background. I understand on it's face why you wouldn't have any problems with a card called crusade. Crusades are a touchy subject. The west largely downplays it as simply a war between religious factions. And to an extent it was. Except the portrayal of Muslims has largely been more inaccurate than the portrayal of the knights and holy armies. There's a lot of history, but I'm going to break it down simply. Brown people under one religion were in control of the Middle East. They had a very progressive society. They didn't oppress people based on religion; you were free to practice whatever religion you wanted. You just had to pay a tax. This aspect continued all the way up to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. But back on target. The brown people also had advanced mathematics (we use their numbers today this 5 is a Arabic number/character) and had clockworks and fire proof armor and a bunch of other really neat stuff that has to be rediscovered because of the Crusades and other problems after. The white people came angry that brown people were in their holy land and charging taxes for them to pray and war were declared. White people claimed the land as holy because their white washed savior came from there (they ignore that he was not white) and raged. They mostly lost. They won a few times, but mostly lost. Sometimes before they even got there. But when they did get there, hoo boy did they do some evil stuff. There's stories told gleefully about these holy knights killing women and children for sport, and playing a particularly gruesome game of tossing babies up and catching them on their pikes and lances. So, you might want to think about that as to why crusades might be considered culturally insensitive at the least and racist at the worst (I personally view it as casually racist, because most people probably are not aware of history).

OK. Over to D&D. There's a very specific subset of players who don't care about the backgrounds and don't look for depth in their games. We call them murder hobos, because they only care about killing everything. D&D is littered with casual racism, and if you reread that article, you'll see they point that out. Drow are inherently evil and racist matriarchal and all black. Something happened earlier in 5e, where some of the drow were forgiven and their skin lightened up; because black people are evil. Drow society looks like a caricature of what white men think a matriarchal society looks like. As more people in a variety of colors and genders come into the game to play, why should they not have representation? Why should they see the only matriarchal society that exists in almost all the settings as being evil where the women all abuse the men under them? Why should all of the non-white races be inherently evil and they all have to play a Drizzt clone to be able to play a non-white race? As for Orcs, their society makes little sense, aside from the fact they're based on caricatures of tribal societies. Humans are the best race. They're adaptive, they learn quick, they often get extra skills and feats just for being human. The explanation is that humans live shorter lives than the other races, so that makes them some how more adaptable and industrious. Orcs have the same life span. Why are they brutes and racist and incapable of making anything remotely good for armor or weapons? It's not like they live in an isolated society. Why is their -one- god evil? Humans have like 100 gods of varying alignments, Orcs get one evil god. Drow even have a good god.

Western fantasy is built on casual racism and us vs them. When you don't have the literal light skinned people being good vs the dark skinned people being bad, you have the industrialized people who live in large cities are evil and people who live in rural areas are bad. I'm not saying all of it is that way, but more than enough of it is, and a lot of the things that break those molds are recent editions.

You admitted casual racism is just as bad as racism. This is casual racism. And as more than just white men begin picking up and gaining interest in these things, they shouldn't feel alienated.

I'm sorry you feel your hobbies are under attack, but I've been playing D&D for decades, and I honestly do not see your problem here.


I'll give you two things. One, you're right, I shouldn't post in rage, but sometimes the dam overflows. Mine did today. Secondly, I did read D&D article and it's not as if they're taking anything away. I'm just tired of every single thing being accused of racism now. We are falling back to Sarkeesian's quote "Everything is racist, Everything is sexist, everything is homophobic and you have to point it all out". Honestly, if that's the case, burn it all down and start over. If you firmly believe that everything is problematic these days, and a lot of people seem to, lets just fire every nuke and reduce the world to glass. That's the only way to get all of it.

I'm going to have to take your word for the D&D racism thing. I have literally not read anything of the forgotten realms, the sword coast, any of it. I'm a DM and a writer, I use the system and make up the rest myself. But have you heard the phrase "If you go looking for something hard enough you'll find it"? That's what we're dealing with now. Lets go back to D&D for a moment. If you wanted to play an orc, go play an orc. There's literally nothing stopping you from doing so. Play an orc of any gender, worship whatever god you want, or none, pick a class, make something up for your backstory. I hate to say this but if you're incapable of doing that, then either your DM needs to help you or you need to find a new hobby. And if your DM says no, because orcs MUST be like this, THEN you might actually have a case. Most likely they're overly controlling asshat on a power trip but you might have just found yourself a racist. Get you a horse and rope and go to town. But that's not the games fault, that's the DM. Now that we have to fix the "problematic" orcs and drow, are goblins next? Gnolls? Perhaps we should grab the beasiary and just go page by page to make sure no one gets left out. Where does this END.

As for Magic the gathering, I heard about the card with the hoods. I don't remember what it was but when I heard all the details, yeah, that one's racist. That one is SO racist I can't believe it got through. It even had the card number 1488. But really, that should show just how NOT racist everyone else is that it didn't even trip in their heads that it was a dogwhistle, because THEY didn't hear it. Enough about that one those. As for cards like Crusade and Jihad, these are words in our vocabulary. They mean things. They are not soley attatched to the events of history, events that we look back on and regret (Well, some people do) but that doesn't change them. And banning the damn cards won't change it either. If we cannot handle having trading cards in a game because someone finds the words offensive then maybe we should go through the dictionary as well. I've heard people joke about that but maybe I should be expecting that to come through as well.

Racism is bad, and casual racism is just racism. Casual, overt, covert, they all have the same root words. The culture we are creating through is one that is literally looking for any excuse, anything that could be possibly construed as the slightest bit offensive. People are calling for Prowl to be removed because he's a police car. What if someone doesn't like the US overmilitarization? Should we get rid of all the seekers? What if someone finds Prime offensive because he's a semi truck, one of the biggest contributors to enviromental damage? Prime needs to go too, I suppose. This can't continue.

I know you wanted to bring this back to BLM. That is what this thread is about. But I don't see BLM going to companies like Hasbro and demanding these changes. Some people might be doing it in their name but I don't believe that for a minute. BLM has been out there fighting for real changes, not flexing their mob power to see how many people bow to them. I think this entire situation has gotten out of their hands and away from their cause just like this thread has. If there is to be any hope at all of making an actual difference, this needs to stop. This isn't helping BLM at all. It's actively rolling back everything they're working for by making more and more people hate them. Every person fired from their job over a slight in their social media, every person that loses their hobby to this outrage, every person that speak s up only to be shouted down is going to be one more person sent to the other side and standing against them. You don't want that. I don't want that. I want all this to stop before it gets any worse but I'm doing what I can and what I can do is getting nothing done. I'm just screaming at the wall as it's pushed down.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Absolute Zero » Fri Jun 19, 2020 7:50 pm

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ShadowKatt wrote:
Absolute Zero wrote:First off. Take a deep breath. Don't post in rage.

Second. I read your link. Once you calm down, I'd suggest rereading it in a detached and objective manner.

Now, there's a lot to unpack here. Starting with M:TG. I like that you chose the crusade card, and not the card that had dudes that looked like they were wearing KKK hoods and burning a cross in the background. I understand on it's face why you wouldn't have any problems with a card called crusade. Crusades are a touchy subject. The west largely downplays it as simply a war between religious factions. And to an extent it was. Except the portrayal of Muslims has largely been more inaccurate than the portrayal of the knights and holy armies. There's a lot of history, but I'm going to break it down simply. Brown people under one religion were in control of the Middle East. They had a very progressive society. They didn't oppress people based on religion; you were free to practice whatever religion you wanted. You just had to pay a tax. This aspect continued all the way up to the fall of the Ottoman Empire. But back on target. The brown people also had advanced mathematics (we use their numbers today this 5 is a Arabic number/character) and had clockworks and fire proof armor and a bunch of other really neat stuff that has to be rediscovered because of the Crusades and other problems after. The white people came angry that brown people were in their holy land and charging taxes for them to pray and war were declared. White people claimed the land as holy because their white washed savior came from there (they ignore that he was not white) and raged. They mostly lost. They won a few times, but mostly lost. Sometimes before they even got there. But when they did get there, hoo boy did they do some evil stuff. There's stories told gleefully about these holy knights killing women and children for sport, and playing a particularly gruesome game of tossing babies up and catching them on their pikes and lances. So, you might want to think about that as to why crusades might be considered culturally insensitive at the least and racist at the worst (I personally view it as casually racist, because most people probably are not aware of history).

OK. Over to D&D. There's a very specific subset of players who don't care about the backgrounds and don't look for depth in their games. We call them murder hobos, because they only care about killing everything. D&D is littered with casual racism, and if you reread that article, you'll see they point that out. Drow are inherently evil and racist matriarchal and all black. Something happened earlier in 5e, where some of the drow were forgiven and their skin lightened up; because black people are evil. Drow society looks like a caricature of what white men think a matriarchal society looks like. As more people in a variety of colors and genders come into the game to play, why should they not have representation? Why should they see the only matriarchal society that exists in almost all the settings as being evil where the women all abuse the men under them? Why should all of the non-white races be inherently evil and they all have to play a Drizzt clone to be able to play a non-white race? As for Orcs, their society makes little sense, aside from the fact they're based on caricatures of tribal societies. Humans are the best race. They're adaptive, they learn quick, they often get extra skills and feats just for being human. The explanation is that humans live shorter lives than the other races, so that makes them some how more adaptable and industrious. Orcs have the same life span. Why are they brutes and racist and incapable of making anything remotely good for armor or weapons? It's not like they live in an isolated society. Why is their -one- god evil? Humans have like 100 gods of varying alignments, Orcs get one evil god. Drow even have a good god.

Western fantasy is built on casual racism and us vs them. When you don't have the literal light skinned people being good vs the dark skinned people being bad, you have the industrialized people who live in large cities are evil and people who live in rural areas are bad. I'm not saying all of it is that way, but more than enough of it is, and a lot of the things that break those molds are recent editions.

You admitted casual racism is just as bad as racism. This is casual racism. And as more than just white men begin picking up and gaining interest in these things, they shouldn't feel alienated.

I'm sorry you feel your hobbies are under attack, but I've been playing D&D for decades, and I honestly do not see your problem here.


I'll give you two things. One, you're right, I shouldn't post in rage, but sometimes the dam overflows. Mine did today. Secondly, I did read D&D article and it's not as if they're taking anything away. I'm just tired of every single thing being accused of racism now. We are falling back to Sarkeesian's quote "Everything is racist, Everything is sexist, everything is homophobic and you have to point it all out". Honestly, if that's the case, burn it all down and start over. If you firmly believe that everything is problematic these days, and a lot of people seem to, lets just fire every nuke and reduce the world to glass. That's the only way to get all of it.

I'm going to have to take your word for the D&D racism thing. I have literally not read anything of the forgotten realms, the sword coast, any of it. I'm a DM and a writer, I use the system and make up the rest myself. But have you heard the phrase "If you go looking for something hard enough you'll find it"? That's what we're dealing with now. Lets go back to D&D for a moment. If you wanted to play an orc, go play an orc. There's literally nothing stopping you from doing so. Play an orc of any gender, worship whatever god you want, or none, pick a class, make something up for your backstory. I hate to say this but if you're incapable of doing that, then either your DM needs to help you or you need to find a new hobby. And if your DM says no, because orcs MUST be like this, THEN you might actually have a case. Most likely they're overly controlling asshat on a power trip but you might have just found yourself a racist. Get you a horse and rope and go to town. But that's not the games fault, that's the DM. Now that we have to fix the "problematic" orcs and drow, are goblins next? Gnolls? Perhaps we should grab the beasiary and just go page by page to make sure no one gets left out. Where does this END.

As for Magic the gathering, I heard about the card with the hoods. I don't remember what it was but when I heard all the details, yeah, that one's racist. That one is SO racist I can't believe it got through. It even had the card number 1488. But really, that should show just how NOT racist everyone else is that it didn't even trip in their heads that it was a dogwhistle, because THEY didn't hear it. Enough about that one those. As for cards like Crusade and Jihad, these are words in our vocabulary. They mean things. They are not soley attatched to the events of history, events that we look back on and regret (Well, some people do) but that doesn't change them. And banning the damn cards won't change it either. If we cannot handle having trading cards in a game because someone finds the words offensive then maybe we should go through the dictionary as well. I've heard people joke about that but maybe I should be expecting that to come through as well.

Racism is bad, and casual racism is just racism. Casual, overt, covert, they all have the same root words. The culture we are creating through is one that is literally looking for any excuse, anything that could be possibly construed as the slightest bit offensive. People are calling for Prowl to be removed because he's a police car. What if someone doesn't like the US overmilitarization? Should we get rid of all the seekers? What if someone finds Prime offensive because he's a semi truck, one of the biggest contributors to enviromental damage? Prime needs to go too, I suppose. This can't continue.

I know you wanted to bring this back to BLM. That is what this thread is about. But I don't see BLM going to companies like Hasbro and demanding these changes. Some people might be doing it in their name but I don't believe that for a minute. BLM has been out there fighting for real changes, not flexing their mob power to see how many people bow to them. I think this entire situation has gotten out of their hands and away from their cause just like this thread has. If there is to be any hope at all of making an actual difference, this needs to stop. This isn't helping BLM at all. It's actively rolling back everything they're working for by making more and more people hate them. Every person fired from their job over a slight in their social media, every person that loses their hobby to this outrage, every person that speak s up only to be shouted down is going to be one more person sent to the other side and standing against them. You don't want that. I don't want that. I want all this to stop before it gets any worse but I'm doing what I can and what I can do is getting nothing done. I'm just screaming at the wall as it's pushed down.

As an artist and player and occasional DM and writer, I find it easier to understand the system if you actually read the books. Even if you don't use the setting specifically, it helps to understand the design of the races and classes/subclasses, as some have specific ties to an organization or race or location, and that makes it easier to figure out how to rework things to fit it into a homebrew world. Honestly, I've never played a game outside of Warhammer where we used the book setting. Basically research. Hell, I'll research things not even in the books if it's relevant to the character background. Research helps with writing too.

Research is how I came to the realization that fantasy novels tend towards racism, but given the most famous ones were written a long long time ago in a galaxy far away, it's not overly surprising. Understand this, however, allows me to better recognize and see what tropes to avoid. Tolkien is a good example of what to avoid for modern fantasy.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby EunuchRon » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:42 am

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I'm gonna say just this. Too many peeps lookin' for reasons to get mad over. Nobody knows how to forgive. Say da wrong thing? Cancelled. Racist. Bigot. Whatever. Can't be someone's just stupid or, you know, maybe still learning how to play well wit others. Dey got people lookin' back decades to find where someone slipped up to use it against em. What's up wit dat? It's all GOTCHA stuff now. Dat's no way to grow, its just hurtin' each other. McCarthy saw commies everywhere. Now peeps seeing racists everywhere. You get a few bad apples and cities get torched. REMEMBER CHICAGO! Man dat's what I think every time I see all da shootins on the news! REMEMBER CHICAGO! But who does? Peeps dying there every day an it never stops. The news don't care. The politicians don't care. White cop kills a black guy and the news goes nuts. LOOK AT DIS!! https://www.chicagotribune.com/data/ct- ... story.html 1290 PEOPLE SHOT! WHY IS THIS ACCEPTABLE!

If black lives really matter then they got to matter not just when a cop does the killing, and if silence = violence? Well, lots of peeps - news and politicos, yo - bein' silent about dis. Systemic racism is when peeps do NOTHING about all this while lettin' looters burn down black run stores in poor neighborhoods. Stoppin' crooks ain't racist. Lettin' black neighborhoods burn and black peeps get shot because you're afraid to be seen as a racist by, you know, DOING something... that's failing black people hard. Peeps need to stand up to the mobs dat don't care about nothin' but causin' trouble. It's gonna be hard and take guts, but this still da home of the brave or not?
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby AcademyofDrX » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:27 am

"What about 'black-on-black' crime in Chicago" is a racist right-wing talking point. Black Lives Matter activists do care about those communities, which is why they want funds diverted from racist police structures and into the community benefit programs that can address the root causes of poverty, substance abuse, and lack of urban infrastructure.

This is weaksauce culture jamming and I'm embarrassed for you.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jun 21, 2020 6:55 am

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AcademyofDrX wrote:"What about 'black-on-black' crime in Chicago" is a racist right-wing talking point.


Well, look like everything you have to say right after that is completely irrelevant.
You know what? A REAL "racist" talking point (and forget about your "right wing" bull because lefties are pretty damn racist themselves by cancelling Aunt Jemina and Uncle Ben's, promoting actual segregation, and this whole "cultural appropriation" nonsense), a real anti-black racist would just shut the F up and enjoy all that black-on-black killings with a popcorn bucket in hand.

But go on. Keep putting racism in little "wing" boxes. White supremacy is alive and well and it ironically come from your "progressive" college. The clip below is relatively old, but still relevant. I always take vox-pop with a grain of salt because they are ALWAYS biased. But it's still illustrate perfectly what's going on. And when an actual genuine racist KKK guy agree 100% with YOUR "progressive" talking points, maybe it's time to reflect on what went wrong.

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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby High Command » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:01 am

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-Kanrabat- wrote:I always take vox-pop with a grain of salt because they are ALWAYS biased.


Agreed and here's how it can be done.

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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jun 21, 2020 10:15 am

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High Command wrote:
-Kanrabat- wrote:I always take vox-pop with a grain of salt because they are ALWAYS biased.


Agreed and here's how it can be done.



Damn, that was MASTERFUL. So, yeah, vox-pop should be taken not with a grain of salt but with the whole salt shaker.

This make me remember that with the current leftist inquisition, how much longer such perfect sketches of comedy be scrubbed and censored from History? Because right now, we let the regressives had their way for way too long and it's only a matter of time before Mel Brooks, Monty Python, and other masters get cancelled.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Skritz » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:05 pm

-Kanrabat- wrote:California repeal proposition 209 affirmation amendment
https://ballotpedia.org/California_Repe ... ment_(2020)

Wow. Just. Wow.

Americans, I hope you're proud of yourselves. As a Canadian, I'm pretty horrified of what the USA is changing into. Because if the USA sneeze, we catch a cold.

Jesus mother fokking Crayst. #-o


Well, personally I can't wait for it to be re-implemented in Canada. That was intense sarcasm, by the way. Can't wait for someone to tell me that, since job discrimination is going to be back on the menu, that I can't have a decently paying job with decent advancement.

"Is it because I'm white?"
"Naw, its because you're a French frog. Now go work minimum wage, you froggy."
Welcome back to pre-1960 Québec if that happen. However I don't expect Americans to grasp that cultural detail, as it exist outside the usual culture warring of their country and is a type of cultural and socio economic divide which is completely unrelated to race in so much as how Americans tend to think of race as simply a melanin spectrum. Its funny to think the most racial slurs I ever got was from someone who was as pasty as I am. All it take is a language and last name's cultural origin to make a difference.

The closest analogy I can make was people shitting on the Irish in past centuries.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jun 21, 2020 12:51 pm

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Skritz wrote:All it take is a language and last name's cultural origin to make a difference.

The closest analogy I can make was people shitting on the Irish in past centuries.


But... But... racism against "whites" is impossible according to our elites "intellectual" overlords.

Right?

Sarcasm aside, we French Canadians were basically the slaves/serfs of the English for centuries. And it barely ended in the 1960's with La Révolution Tranquille. Appart some who are still clamoring for Quebec's independence, do we still hate the Anglos? Are we asking for reparation? Are we asking for SEGREGATED "safe spaces"? Are we blaming all of our failures on the Anglos?

No.

We moved on, we accepted our own historical mistakes and failures and we improved ourselves by looking toward the future rather than being chained to the past. One disgusting thing is that despite we French Canadian succeeding to get rid of our porteur d'eau mentality, Americans are exporting their slave chains to Canada (and the rest of the world) and many of our "intellectuals" are way too happy to wear them. Then they force those chains on us.

When Kanye West said that Black Americans were "slaves by choice", he was mocked and hated for it. What he meant was despite Slavery to be over for so long, the Black American never stopped to be slaves in their mind. But he was smeared and conveniently misinterpreted by the media who only shown just a few seconds of the clip, then told you what you should think. The Nigro should stay in the plantation and say "yes sir" with a smile after all.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Skritz » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:18 pm

-Kanrabat- wrote:
Skritz wrote:All it take is a language and last name's cultural origin to make a difference.

The closest analogy I can make was people shitting on the Irish in past centuries.


But... But... racism against "whites" is impossible according to our elites "intellectual" overlords.

Right?


An interesting thing I've noticed from interacting with Europeans over the years is that there are only two type of people who constantly bang about a 'collective whiteness': either a legit white supremacist or an American (or Canadian influenced by Americans) so called 'Anti-Racist' that reduce every single bit of human history, culture and ethnicity that is vaguely related to western Europe as something that's somehow deemed 'white'.

Growing up it was never something I thought about, as my linguistic heritage was my self-identity. There was a hazy, if still existing division between Franco and Anglo-Canadian but the two sides mostly stuck to themselves barring a few oddball kids from bilingual families. The idea of myself ever thinking of my identity as some greater collective related to the rest of Europe was very much one I'd argue was forced upon me in recent years as racial tensions have been growing and most of it came from people who were as pasty as I am.

Because, you see, I had been raised with the idea that my French surname had a bit more bearing on my 'collective identity' than just race. Yeah sure, there's always an us/them mentality and tension, not gonna lie and say it isn't there but in general I was not raised with the idea I somehow formed a greater collective with all Americans and all Europeans and was collectively in the same boat as them for any perceived collective guilt.

The idea that I am identical and interchangeable with some American Hillbilly and/or American Bay Area hipster is completely ludicrous.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby -Kanrabat- » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:26 pm

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Indeed the supremacists and "progressives" are the two faces of the same coin.

BOTH say that ALL the (insert race here) people are the SAME.
And that, is an extremely disgustingly racist mindset.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Skritz » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:32 pm

-Kanrabat- wrote:Indeed the supremacists and "progressives" are the two faces of the same coin.


I'm not sure I would go that far. Its probably a lot more complicated than that. However, it is correct that both are very driven by a tribalistic mindset, which to an extent I understand is part of human nature. That said, its also taboo to mention that someone of a different 'race' can also be a supremacist and we just pretend Black Supremacists don't even exist. Which is nonsense and historically untrue.

That said the pessimist in me believe its all screwed beyond repair anyway and this will invariably devolve into a race war once and for all. Problem is whoever win, everyone else lose. Widespread ethnic violence never end well and usually end up with people killing more of their 'own' folk by the end of it.

Of course, we're in 2020: the year of absolute stupidity and me saying "Killing each others is bad and will only bring misery!" apparently makes me a bad person. :HEADHURTS:
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby AcademyofDrX » Sun Jun 21, 2020 1:54 pm

I'm guessing that the conversation I'm missing isn't about how much Black Lives Matter.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Skritz » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:01 pm

If people weren't cowardly hiding behind an Ignore button, you'd be able to learn a thing or two about a viewpoint on this stuff that isn't American. Or the fact the 'dangerous bigot' (or whatever label those who have blocked me have assigned to me) is actually saying "Race war is bad, folks, it will only hurt people".
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby High Command » Sun Jun 21, 2020 2:30 pm

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-Kanrabat- wrote:
High Command wrote:
-Kanrabat- wrote:I always take vox-pop with a grain of salt because they are ALWAYS biased.


Agreed and here's how it can be done.



Damn, that was MASTERFUL. So, yeah, vox-pop should be taken not with a grain of salt but with the whole salt shaker.

This make me remember that with the current leftist inquisition, how much longer such perfect sketches of comedy be scrubbed and censored from History? Because right now, we let the regressives had their way for way too long and it's only a matter of time before Mel Brooks, Monty Python, and other masters get cancelled.


I don't have any problem with things being re-evaluated and acknowledged if there is a problem.
Again from the UK perspective, I know a lot of our old shows have problems, particularly with homophobia but there's plenty of instances of blackface, yellowface etc as well as slurs.
In almost all cases these shows won't be repeated on TV although many are available through streaming platforms. The BBC's streaming service adds an on-screen message before such shows pointing out that they reflect differences between what was acceptable when they were made and now.
Might not be the perfect solution but it does try to strike a balance of sorts. Like the idea of removing statues I think.
If they keep broadcasting the shows as part of a schedule they are promoting them and the ideas they contain (like leaving a statue up) if they keep them available but in a form you have to look for on a streaming service, (like putting a statue in a museum) people can still see them alongside contextual information.
The more important thing is what shows are being made now and what are the people making them saying right now.
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Re: Black lives matter. 'Til all are one!

Postby Burn » Sun Jun 21, 2020 4:11 pm

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AcademyofDrX wrote:I'm guessing that the conversation I'm missing isn't about how much Black Lives Matter.

There was no need for this post.
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