Seibertron.com Energon Pub Forums

njb902 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:This statement applies for those of us who are die-hard fans and are aware that such counterfeit products exist. However, the majority of Transformers fans (the casual fans) are not die-hards like us here on Seibertron.com. They are unaware of that there are counterfeit products on the market and that those products come in near identical packaging to the original Transformers toys and are difficult to tell apart from an authentic product unless you know what you are looking for. Our knowledge of counterfeit products is a luxury we have that most casual Transformers fans most likely do not have. It is unfair to them.

I'm not an expert in many things that I buy, TVs, cameras, purses and honestly, not even all Transformers toys. That's why I do research before I buy them. And what if a casual fan wants to buy a toy of their favourite G1 character which costs $100 but can't afford to or don't want to pay that. Is it fair to tell them that then they can't have one when they could buy a KO for $40 (assuming they don't care if it's official or not)? That's a very elitist point of view.

It's elitist to want to prevent someone from getting ripped off?

No, you can prevent being ripped off in other ways, like by educating yourself.

And I guess it wasn't clear so I will explain that I mean it is elitist to expect people to pay high prices to be in a hobby (especially a toy hobby) when cheaper options are available (but you don't want to allow them to have those options).

Seibertron wrote:

Ultra Markus wrote:

Rated X wrote:I kind of lost interest in buying G1 molds with all the cool 3rd party stuff on the market. But this KO is actually a good thing. It will help drive down the crazy e-bay prices of G1 Scorponok. So any of you who are looking to buy the original, will pay alot less for it in the future. Of course there will always be those few who are offended that their precious figures are losing value. I think you should buy toys if you love them no matter what theyre worth. If youre looking for an investment, buy stocks or bonds instead of toys. And a KO Black Zarak with gold plastic that doesnt crumble is a great idea. I bet all those anti-KO people who bought the dino cassettes will buy it too.

i agree, these prices on G1 stuff is crazy hopefully we will see an encore release of scorponok because of this so i can have him next to fort max but i say screw those who want to screw us who collect to enjoy not to invest because it drives those away who loved them as a kid but can't afford them now but like with anything vintage there will always be those who see just $$$$$ and those who just appreciate it

KOs of any kind are very bad for the long run of this brand. What you guys have failed to mention is what happens when the KOs are passed off as originals, intentionally or mistakenly. That is unfair to unsuspecting collectors who are looking to obtain one of these figures.

I've owned every Hasbro G1 Transformers figure since 2007 before the KOs confused the market. I'm very lucky that I know for certainty that everything I own is original because the KOs weren't hitting the market yet. I think it is extremely unfortunate that collectors have to deal with this crap and aren't able to enjoy collecting unadulterated the way that I was able to.

It's one thing when you knowingly buy a KO, but when someone sells their collection later down the road and fails to mention that the item was a KO, or when their storage unit goes up for auction because they forgot to make a few payments or, god forbid, they pass away and their loved ones sell their collection, these KOs will inevitably end up being passed off as originals sooner or later.

Rationalizing that KOs are a good thing in any manner is a selfish view and a view that fails to see the big problem in the long run. It could also be argued the same about official reissues, but they're quality items and in many cases the reissues retain the value of the originals or even surpass their value in some cases. There is a big difference between a quality official reissue and an unofficial unlicensed counterfeit product that doesn't have to meet certain quality standards.

We collectors have a huge responsibility to make sure that future generations of Transformers fans get to enjoy quality Transformers products without having every item run the risk of being a faulty or flawed or counterfeit product. Maybe some of you don't care about this and only care about what you can afford or get your hands on. There is a much bigger picture regarding all of this. I hope that those of you who think that counterfeit products belong in this market will take some time to ponder what items like that do to water down this brand and the enjoyment of collectors in the long run.

so where does this lecture that is aimed at me on why KOs are bad come from i dont need you telling me why they are bad i don't support these pieces of crap if you wanted to tell the world about it say so on a separate post dont make me sound like an idiot for no reason thats totally not cool

Omega-1 wrote:

njb902 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:This statement applies for those of us who are die-hard fans and are aware that such counterfeit products exist. However, the majority of Transformers fans (the casual fans) are not die-hards like us here on Seibertron.com. They are unaware of that there are counterfeit products on the market and that those products come in near identical packaging to the original Transformers toys and are difficult to tell apart from an authentic product unless you know what you are looking for. Our knowledge of counterfeit products is a luxury we have that most casual Transformers fans most likely do not have. It is unfair to them.

I'm not an expert in many things that I buy, TVs, cameras, purses and honestly, not even all Transformers toys. That's why I do research before I buy them. And what if a casual fan wants to buy a toy of their favourite G1 character which costs $100 but can't afford to or don't want to pay that. Is it fair to tell them that then they can't have one when they could buy a KO for $40 (assuming they don't care if it's official or not)? That's a very elitist point of view.

It's elitist to want to prevent someone from getting ripped off?

No, you can prevent being ripped off in other ways, like by educating yourself.

Sometimes no matter how prepared you are things can and will go wrong. There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there, and it is never right to defraud someone. So I see no problem with what Seibertron was saying.m

njb902 wrote:Sometimes no matter how prepared you are things can and will go wrong. There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there, and it is never right to defraud someone. So I see no problem with what Seibertron was saying.m

I also stated that it's not OK to defraud someone that there are people out there that will try to cheat you in many other ways. Just because there are cheats out there, that doesn't mean you should prevent people from having a choice.

Omega-1 wrote:

njb902 wrote:Sometimes no matter how prepared you are things can and will go wrong. There are a lot of unscrupulous people out there, and it is never right to defraud someone. So I see no problem with what Seibertron was saying.m

I also stated that it's not OK to defraud someone that there are people out there that will try to cheat you in many other ways. Just because there are cheats out there, that doesn't mean you should prevent people from having a choice.

I respect your opinion, and please don't take away from this that I implied you agree with defrauding people, I just disagree with it.

Having said that, I would more than happy if Hasbro/TakaraTomy defend their patents, which means they will have to make the product themselves? I think in order to have a patent, you must present a product? Otherwise, I don't care if other companies create KOs of toys that Hasbro/TakaraTomy never plan to remake. I think design patents are lost after 14 years.

Omega-1 wrote:

njb902 wrote:

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:This statement applies for those of us who are die-hard fans and are aware that such counterfeit products exist. However, the majority of Transformers fans (the casual fans) are not die-hards like us here on Seibertron.com. They are unaware of that there are counterfeit products on the market and that those products come in near identical packaging to the original Transformers toys and are difficult to tell apart from an authentic product unless you know what you are looking for. Our knowledge of counterfeit products is a luxury we have that most casual Transformers fans most likely do not have. It is unfair to them.

I'm not an expert in many things that I buy, TVs, cameras, purses and honestly, not even all Transformers toys. That's why I do research before I buy them. And what if a casual fan wants to buy a toy of their favourite G1 character which costs $100 but can't afford to or don't want to pay that. Is it fair to tell them that then they can't have one when they could buy a KO for $40 (assuming they don't care if it's official or not)? That's a very elitist point of view.

It's elitist to want to prevent someone from getting ripped off?

No, you can prevent being ripped off in other ways, like by educating yourself.

And I guess it wasn't clear so I will explain that I mean it is elitist to expect people to pay high prices to be in a hobby (especially a toy hobby) when cheaper options are available (but you don't want to allow them to have those options).

It is not elitist at all. I'm all for official reissues being released and providing less expensive methods for people to obtain desired figures. Transformers has been an expensive hobby since day 1. If you can't afford a certain toy, you don't buy it. You buy ones that you can afford. It took me 15 years to be able to get Grand Maximus. I worked very hard to obtain that. Those of you who think that you should be able to just get something because you want it without having to work hard for it have a lot to learn in life. One's desire to own a product doesn't justify the production of counterfeit products. Just because I want more money doesn't mean I want counterfeit money!

Omega-1 wrote:Having said that, I would more than happy if Hasbro/TakaraTomy defend their patents, which means they will have to make the product themselves? I think in order to have a patent, you must present a product? Otherwise, I don't care if other companies create KOs of toys that Hasbro/TakaraTomy never plan to remake.

There is something to that.

Seibertron wrote:It is not elitist at all. I'm all for official reissues being released and providing less expensive methods for people to obtain desired figures. Transformers has been an expensive hobby since day 1. If you can't afford a certain toy, you don't buy it. You buy ones that you can afford. It took me 15 years to be able to get Grand Maximus. I worked very hard to obtain that. Those of you who think that you should be able to just get something because you want it without having to work hard for it have a lot to learn in life. One's desire to own a product doesn't justify the production of counterfeit products. Just because I want more money doesn't mean I want counterfeit money!

Sorry, but I think that is a silly analogy. If I wanted to buy a cz necklace instead of a diamond necklace, I should be able to.

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:It is not elitist at all. I'm all for official reissues being released and providing less expensive methods for people to obtain desired figures. Transformers has been an expensive hobby since day 1. If you can't afford a certain toy, you don't buy it. You buy ones that you can afford. It took me 15 years to be able to get Grand Maximus. I worked very hard to obtain that. Those of you who think that you should be able to just get something because you want it without having to work hard for it have a lot to learn in life. One's desire to own a product doesn't justify the production of counterfeit products. Just because I want more money doesn't mean I want counterfeit money!

Sorry, but I think that is a silly analogy. If I wanted to buy a cz necklace instead of a diamond necklace, I should be able to.

That's not a fair comparison. Cubic Zirconia is sold as Cubic Zirconia and it doesn't get sold in the same original packaging as actual diamonds. If the people making these KO products just wanted to bring replica Transformers products to market, there would be no need to release them in packaging that was as a near identical package to the original. If the counterfeit products were sold in packaging that was unique to those products, that would be one thing. But the fact that the counterfeit products are sold in replica packaging clearly shows the intention of these people which is to confuse and take advantage of uninformed collectors.

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:It is not elitist at all. I'm all for official reissues being released and providing less expensive methods for people to obtain desired figures. Transformers has been an expensive hobby since day 1. If you can't afford a certain toy, you don't buy it. You buy ones that you can afford. It took me 15 years to be able to get Grand Maximus. I worked very hard to obtain that. Those of you who think that you should be able to just get something because you want it without having to work hard for it have a lot to learn in life. One's desire to own a product doesn't justify the production of counterfeit products. Just because I want more money doesn't mean I want counterfeit money!

Sorry, but I think that is a silly analogy. If I wanted to buy a cz necklace instead of a diamond necklace, I should be able to.

It is not. What you are talking about is completely different than this case.

A cz diamond is legal to sell, as it is a cheap alternative and is sold at stores that will market as such. This is more like you buying the cz diamond necklace for cheap and selling it on eBay as an authentic diamond necklace. The difference is that you are purposely conning somebody who has full-hearted reasoning to buy it and not care how he feels when he found out that he bought a KO product.

As for actual KO products, I think the only validation for your case is to have the items be placed in packaging that is not created to con people. Because if it is a KO, it should be marketed as such... Which would justify your means of owning them. Otherwise, you might as well dismiss those who had this hobby ruined for them because of these KOs. Because ignoring them just because you want your rights to be heard is the only "justifiable" way to go.

Seibertron wrote:That's not a fair comparison. Cubic Zirconia is sold as Cubic Zirconia and it doesn't get sold in the same original packaging as actual diamonds. If the people making these KO products just wanted to bring replica Transformers products to market, there would be no need to release them in packaging that was as a near identical package to the original. If the counterfeit products were sold in packaging that was unique to those products, that would be one thing. But the fact that the counterfeit products are sold in replica packaging clearly shows the intention of these people which is to confuse and take advantage of uninformed collectors.

So, are you saying that you would be OK with KOs if they were in different packaging? I would be OK with that. But obviously, if the packaging were thrown away, a resell of the KO could still be mistaken for an authentic Transformer, just like a cz resell could be mistaken for a diamond if the seller were not honest or was unaware.

Holy freakin s**t !!!! What did I start ???

I just wish all those who buy KO windshield wipers and printer cartridges would let this silly argument go. Everyone deserves a little G1 goodness and sometimes an affordable option is good for those who have other expenses. Nearly all my G1 stuff is original, but a quality KO can sometimes fill a void for an average fan.

KUMA-NIN Maximus wrote:A cz diamond is legal to sell, as it is a cheap alternative and is sold at stores that will market as such. This is more like you buying the cz diamond necklace for cheap and selling it on eBay as an authentic diamond necklace. The difference is that you are purposely conning somebody who has full-hearted reasoning to buy it and not care how he feels when he found out that he bought a KO product.

As for actual KO products, I think the only validation for your case is to have the items be placed in packaging that is not created to con people. Because if it is a KO, it should be marketed as such... Which would justify your means of owning them. Otherwise, you might as well dismiss those who had this hobby ruined for them because of these KOs. Because ignoring them just because you want your rights to be heard is the only "justifiable" way to go.

So, is your argument against KOs, period, or the way in which people are selling them. If you are against the way people are selling them, then I've already stated that I completely agree that people should not try to pass off KOs as the real thing. But I'm not against people selling KOs of mold that Hasbro/TakaraTomy have abandoned and they clearly state that they are KOs.

If you think of it that way then my cz/diamond comparison makes complete sense. If you had disputable people trying to pass off cz as diamond, then that would be the same thing as what some of these KO sellers are doing. If the KO companies make it clear that their products are KOs, then there should be no problems. So, in saying that KOs should not be sold, period, is like saying cz should not be sold, period, because sellers might be dishonest and try to pass them off as diamonds.

Seibertron wrote:

Trikeboy wrote:There is also the case of reissues having bad quality such as Encore Bruticus which showed serious mold degradation. My Encore Skids falls apart at the waist when transforming him. I never had an original G1 Skids so I don't know if that problem was present on that toy. I have also never had a reissue of the Eject/Rewind mold that can hold it's weapons securely.

It sounds like you've got some duds that should've been returned. I have no issues with any of the toys that you mentioned. Both my Hasbro and Takara Skids are fine, I didn't notice any problems at all with my Encore Bruticus, and I have no problems at all with Eject and Rewind holding their weapons.

Concerning Encore Onslaught. Check his lower extremities. The molding has what I can approximate in words "abrasions" which are not visible in the original.

And of course, being from the Baldigus mold, shoulders won't lock when in Bruticus form.

Btw, I just can't wait for an original Scorponok re-issue.........the anticipation is driving me nuts!

Okay... With me, I have been on both ends of this issue. When I started to collect Dragon Ball Z figures, the only ones available were from Bandai. However, the only store that had any started off selling KOs and never said a thing. Did they know? I am not sure. I just know that their shops closed at some point but did have some nice owners in there. It was when I bought my cousin (who is now 21) a KO Trunks and seeing how the paint was peeling off how it is to be duped into buying what one thinks is an authentic product and ended up getting a KO product. And with Burn's mentioning of eBay, my last encounter with a DBZ related KO happened there. It happened shortly after my 1st or 2nd article was published by Beckett. I went on eBay and spotted a Dragon Ball game (assuming it is AF here) game. It was for PC and I tried reporting it as a fraud. And guess what? The best they allowed is to post a "buyer beware" post. Nothing more. So I ended up calling FUNimation and reporting this. I did get get some gratitude, but accidentally hung up (as I was a quarter awake) before the guy could ask me a question.

Beyond that, practically everything I was interested in have KO versions. DannyChoo.com even had a topic about this during the time Figure.fm was new. This was a massive issue for importing, as it meant that hardcore MISB fans had to deal with an additional sticker notifying them that it is authentic. Others in regions besides the U.S. did not have this benefit. So for them, everything ranging from Figmas to Transformers either had to be imported or they have to be cautious about where they buy. Is this fair for them? I do not think so. Because a collector has the right to buy what they want, but at the same time, a store owner should be obligated to say what is real and what is a KO product. Or just simply sell KO products that do not try to blend in with the originals.

Because what would you prefer doing? Saving up for an authentic Diaclone: Car Robot Powered Convoy DX that had never been open? Or save a few bucks and obtain a KO version, not knowing (or caring) that it is a KO? Think about that, and add the thought about those who will receive these from you as well.

As for me, I only collected Takara Tomy ever since I decided to return to this hobby. Mind you my collection is small, but I had been a fan since 1984. And I quit Hasbro because of QC reasons. And I know that TOMY could revive some older G1 molds with today's technology. But I do not expect them to on account they need the financial foothold to stabilize in Japan before they can toss money into such a project. So for me, I have a new G1 series to enjoy as it has me hope they will redo some of the characters in the series. But until that day comes, I am happy with what I get... And will never be upset if I do not have the chance to own a reissue of Ultra Magnus, Alert, Lander, Star Saber, or even Dai Atlas... Just to name a few. Because as a non-KO collector, my dignity in that respect is greater than the need. Because the need will always be there, but it will not have me toss who I am in this community. Hence why I am going to say that if you want to collect KOs... Do such. Just do not dupe the rest of us in the long-run, okay?

Oh... And the series I stuck with is ALL SPARK. Granted, it is off-topic, but it does show that Takara Tomy is trying to preserve its G1 roots. That, after seeing Chip, the Dinobots, and Nemeis Prime make their debuts this month... It had me hope that it will become a toyline that coincides with Generations. And that itself has me not want to buy any KOs for any reason.

Seibertron wrote:
Rationalizing that KOs are a good thing in any manner is a selfish view and a view that fails to see the big problem in the long run. It could also be argued the same about official reissues, but they're quality items and in many cases the reissues retain the value of the originals or even surpass their value in some cases. There is a big difference between a quality official reissue and an unofficial unlicensed counterfeit product that doesn't have to meet certain quality standards.

We collectors have a huge responsibility to make sure that future generations of Transformers fans get to enjoy quality Transformers products without having every item run the risk of being a faulty or flawed or counterfeit product. Maybe some of you don't care about this and only care about what you can afford or get your hands on. There is a much bigger picture regarding all of this. I hope that those of you who think that counterfeit products belong in this market will take some time to ponder what items like that do to water down this brand and the enjoyment of collectors in the long run.

yeah! I'd definitely be against a Black Zarak KO, and hope that anyone who bought a Black Zarak toy would get one up to the quality of the original.

KUMA-NIN Maximus wrote:Okay... With me, I have been on both ends of this issue. When I started to collect Dragon Ball Z figures, the only ones available were from Bandai. However, the only store that had any started off selling KOs and never said a thing. Did they know? I am not sure. I just know that their shops closed at some point but did have some nice owners in there. It was when I bought my cousin (who is now 21) a KO Trunks and seeing how the paint was peeling off how it is to be duped into buying what one thinks is an authentic product and ended up getting a KO product. And with Burn's mentioning of eBay, my last encounter with a DBZ related KO happened there. It happened shortly after my 1st or 2nd article was published by Beckett. I went on eBay and spotted a Dragon Ball game (assuming it is AF here) game. It was for PC and I tried reporting it as a fraud. And guess what? The best they allowed is to post a "buyer beware" post. Nothing more. So I ended up calling FUNimation and reporting this. I did get get some gratitude, but accidentally hung up (as I was a quarter awake) before the guy could ask me a question.

Beyond that, practically everything I was interested in have KO versions. DannyChoo.com even had a topic about this during the time Figure.fm was new. This was a massive issue for importing, as it meant that hardcore MISB fans had to deal with an additional sticker notifying them that it is authentic. Others in regions besides the U.S. did not have this benefit. So for them, everything ranging from Figmas to Transformers either had to be imported or they have to be cautious about where they buy. Is this fair for them? I do not think so. Because a collector has the right to buy what they want, but at the same time, a store owner should be obligated to say what is real and what is a KO product. Or just simply sell KO products that do not try to blend in with the originals.

Because what would you prefer doing? Saving up for an authentic Diaclone: Car Robot Powered Convoy DX that had never been open? Or save a few bucks and obtain a KO version, not knowing (or caring) that it is a KO? Think about that, and add the thought about those who will receive these from you as well.

As for me, I only collected Takara Tomy ever since I decided to return to this hobby. Mind you my collection is small, but I had been a fan since 1984. And I quit Hasbro because of QC reasons. And I know that TOMY could revive some older G1 molds with today's technology. But I do not expect them to on account they need the financial foothold to stabilize in Japan before they can toss money into such a project. So for me, I have a new G1 series to enjoy as it has me hope they will redo some of the characters in the series. But until that day comes, I am happy with what I get... And will never be upset if I do not have the chance to own a reissue of Ultra Magnus, Alert, Lander, Star Saber, or even Dai Atlas... Just to name a few. Because as a non-KO collector, my dignity in that respect is greater than the need. Because the need will always be there, but it will not have me toss who I am in this community. Hence why I am going to say that if you want to collect KOs... Do such. Just do not dupe the rest of us in the long-run, okay?

Oh... And the series I stuck with is ALL SPARK. Granted, it is off-topic, but it does show that Takara Tomy is trying to preserve its G1 roots. That, after seeing Chip, the Dinobots, and Nemeis Prime make their debuts this month... It had me hope that it will become a toyline that coincides with Generations. And that itself has me not want to buy any KOs for any reason.

Elitist snob hasbro and takara tomy have the same quality just different paint apps and packaging you Americans were not meant to get takara tomy it's why you have hasbro japan tp America shipping is too expensive so if you want to buy takara tomy go to Japan it's all they have.

craggy wrote:

Seibertron wrote:
Rationalizing that KOs are a good thing in any manner is a selfish view and a view that fails to see the big problem in the long run. It could also be argued the same about official reissues, but they're quality items and in many cases the reissues retain the value of the originals or even surpass their value in some cases. There is a big difference between a quality official reissue and an unofficial unlicensed counterfeit product that doesn't have to meet certain quality standards.

We collectors have a huge responsibility to make sure that future generations of Transformers fans get to enjoy quality Transformers products without having every item run the risk of being a faulty or flawed or counterfeit product. Maybe some of you don't care about this and only care about what you can afford or get your hands on. There is a much bigger picture regarding all of this. I hope that those of you who think that counterfeit products belong in this market will take some time to ponder what items like that do to water down this brand and the enjoyment of collectors in the long run.

yeah! I'd definitely be against a Black Zarak KO, and hope that anyone who bought a Black Zarak toy would get one up to the quality of the original.

Ummm...okay, I just woke up, so my sarcasm sensor isn't calibrated yet, but when you say "quality of the original" Black Zarak toy, are you selectively forgetting about gold plastic syndrome? Wouldn't we all prefer that any KO or legit reissue of BZ fix that serious quality problem, making it easily distinguishable from the original? Or was it only certain batches of the original run that suffer from that problem?

yeah, I was pointing out that the official releases aren't always impeccable quality. admittedly I don't know of any real quality issues with Scorponok itself, I know mine was fine.

If there's an official reissue of anything, chances are it is going to be better than a KO. But if this Scorponok KO heralds the release of a Black Zarak that doesn't disintigrate, I can't say that that's a bad thing.

I hate getting drawn back into the KO (and 3rd Party) discussion again like this, but some people's sanctimonious attitudes annoy me. Is it stealing for a company to make a KO of an old product that they didn't design or engineer? Of course it is. Is it stealing to make a brand new product heavily based on designs from an intellectual property that another company owns? Of course. Is Hasbro innocent of this? Of course not. I don't see why there's any distinction between Hasbro having built the Transformers brand off the back of unlicensed Lamborghini, Porsche, VW, F-15 and Concord toys and someone making 3rd party figures or KOing Hasbro products that are no longer available, and may not be in good condition now, 20-30 years after their initial release.

The main people who I feel should be compensated are the designers. I'm still appalled that Hasbro don't list the designers' names on their packaging, and I'm pretty sure that when they reissue an old toy, the guy who engineered and sculpted it doesn't get a royalty cheque.

edit: the point about Hasbro not competing with this is also a good one. Very few KOs and 3rd party toys are competing directly with Hasbro products. I'm sure there will have been instances of it happening. But people buying this KO for however much it costs aren't taking money out of Hasbro's pocket, that will stop them making newer and better Transformers toys. Hasbro doesn't have a G1 Scorponok reissue right now. It's taking money out of ebay seller's hands. I'd be a little bit sad if I had an old toy and wanted to sell it for a hugely marked up price and someone came out with a cheaper alternative, but if things like this and the official Fort Max reissue make these toys more affordable to people, then I don't see how that's a bad thing.

Omega-1 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:That's not a fair comparison. Cubic Zirconia is sold as Cubic Zirconia and it doesn't get sold in the same original packaging as actual diamonds. If the people making these KO products just wanted to bring replica Transformers products to market, there would be no need to release them in packaging that was as a near identical package to the original. If the counterfeit products were sold in packaging that was unique to those products, that would be one thing. But the fact that the counterfeit products are sold in replica packaging clearly shows the intention of these people which is to confuse and take advantage of uninformed collectors.

So, are you saying that you would be OK with KOs if they were in different packaging? I would be OK with that. But obviously, if the packaging were thrown away, a resell of the KO could still be mistaken for an authentic Transformer, just like a cz resell could be mistaken for a diamond if the seller were not honest or was unaware.

I wouldn't personally be OK with KOs if they were sold in different packaging. I'm sticking to my morals on this one. However, if the KOs were sold in non-identical packaging, it would make it seem less obvious that the counterfeit products are meant to deceive consumers.

Rated X wrote:Holy freakin s**t !!!! What did I start ???

A good healthy discussion on a message board. It's nice to see people so staunchly defending their views. Thank you.

Rated X wrote:I just wish all those who buy KO windshield wipers and printer cartridges would let this silly argument go. Everyone deserves a little G1 goodness and sometimes an affordable option is good for those who have other expenses. Nearly all my G1 stuff is original, but a quality KO can sometimes fill a void for an average fan.

Except KO windshield wipers and printer cartridges don't come in identical packaging and even the items themselves are not identical with brand name logos on them (at least not to my knowledge). The problem with the counterfeit Transformers toys is that it is very obvious that their intention is to deceive consumers and make a lot of money off this deception which is really unfortunate.

I can see the problem with KOs. There's a WHOLE LOT of unscrupulous sellers on ebay who don't bother labelling (or pricing) KOs as KOs. They are made to fool people, not made to stand up on their own merits. I don't think anyone can actually successully argue that the way KOs are packaged and marketed right now is actually transparent or fair. "Ohhhh, the font is slightly differet on this release, that's how you can tell it's a KO! Shoulda known that!". Uhhhh, right. Yeah, that's not an obscure peice of knowledge at all.

The long-term implications pretty much kill the collecting scene long-term. At least for people who want the originals and not KOS. I don't think I'd ever buy a G1 online ever again, personally. Sure, there's small ways you can tell a KO from an original, but those are usually how well they hold together and aren't something easily caught on camera.

KOs would square better with me if they made themselves known more easily for what they were. Erase the Hasbro copyright on the toys and change the packaging a little bit.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I can see the problem with KOs. There's a WHOLE LOT of unscrupulous sellers on ebay who don't bother labelling (or pricing) KOs as KOs. They are made to fool people, not made to stand up on their own merits. I don't think anyone can actually successully argue that the way KOs are packaged and marketed right now is actually transparent or fair. "Ohhhh, the font is slightly differet on this release, that's how you can tell it's a KO! Shoulda known that!". Uhhhh, right. Yeah, that's not an obscure peice of knowledge at all.

The long-term implications pretty much kill the collecting scene long-term. At least for people who want the originals and not KOS. I don't think I'd ever buy a G1 online ever again, personally. Sure, there's small ways you can tell a KO from an original, but those are usually how well they hold together and aren't something easily caught on camera.

KOs would square better with me if they made themselves known more easily for what they were. Erase the Hasbro copyright on the toys and change the packaging a little bit.

Fanboy wrote:Elitist snob hasbro and takara tomy have the same quality just different paint apps and packaging you Americans were not meant to get takara tomy it's why you have hasbro japan tp America shipping is too expensive so if you want to buy takara tomy go to Japan it's all they have.

You know, Fanboy. There is something called punctuation marks. You might want to learn to those while not being the snob. And as for your response, it shows you have no regard for any beliefs not shared by you. So it is pretty ironic that you throw a term that you yourself are being. Especially since I said I was okay with obvious KO products and honest collectors who acknowledge that they buy/own KO products.

Oh, and me being an "elitist" is a sheer contradiction to who I am. I am more of a honest snob, on account that I have a solid reason to collect only select characters, lines, etc. tied to Takara Tomy. If you read what I said, you would also have known that I have been in the field for nearly 30 years.

That, and I collect more than this. However, this is tied to my permanent collection. So while others have the right to collect what they want. I just ask that they are neither dishonest or ignorant to others. So re-read what I said and realize you are being one of the two things I would otherwise protest against.

Oh my God, this is some real BS, these are no different than any of the other third party toys everybody scrapes for. They're better quality than half the stuff I-Gear, WU and many others have produced. The only sucky thing is that there are some people out there that will use them to scam people. I've been told my
Abominus and Computron will arrive in the next month, and let me tell you... I'm EXCITED! MINTY fresh versions of my beloved childhood sitting on my shelf and it didn't cost be a couple of grand. lol.
People email me all the time asking to know how to tell the difference between the Vintage and the Repro's and I'm happy to help anybody with a purchase.
For those that are against them, I'm sorry that your concern for the value of your collection is stopping you from enjoying these. (I pitty da Fool)
For everybody else, when I confirm the Scorponok, I'll let you know.
For those of you on here that truly hate me because I've written and busted you on ebay for selling them as originals, I love doing it, and I'm going to keep doing it.
So until Transformers Emporium closes, they will available for collectors everywhere.
On a side note, am I the only one that thinks we need a petition to get Takara to do Trypticon next???
Peace out, David