The Energon Pub

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 5:10 pm

In my day, the Dark Crystal screening in an independent cinema was a popular second date choice. I suppose yuppie daters will be watching Avatar in the same places next decade, but Transformers animation is as elite as the old school Muppet animation in my book. We know about the crazy Japanese Banzai guy who saved us from Fathead Prime...but apart from the looks and movement of the new & improved Banzaiformers is the body language-before boosted by sound.

The forest battle is an obvious fave to everybody, but what other moments do you applaud for their realism?

Note AI is meant to include Altmodes as well as Botmodes, planes, trains & Automobiles as well as CGI models.

Some of mine:

*Frenzy losing it and smashing his hands on the computer in rage.

*Barricade losing it when interrogating Sam (when Sam is on the bonnet of the parked car).

*In the Chicago filming footage of Dotm, during the revelation of the Firetrucks' inclusion, there's footage of an Autobot rendevouz on a main road just outside some kind of dump or compound. As the Autobots all skid, slide & swerve to merge into a single-directional convoy, Bumblebee 'muscles' his way into oncoming traffic, forcing them to stop. I love it!!

*A milliscond of relaxedness that (I assume I see, but may not) in Primes' body just before he tenses up to engage Bonecrusher under the bridge. It reminds me that he's schooled, rather than bred or enslaved, into warfare.

*Jetfire forcing stuck parts to move again during a painful transformation.

Bits I don't like:

*Frenzys' walk like an Egyptian.

*Jazz's Hip-Hop introduction (where's the Jazz, Man?)

*The crazy steering wheel from out of nowhere (the telephone booth, on the other hand, was nice!).

*Ironhide shooting into the ground during mid somersault. (what is that? Some kind of trampoline boost effect via point blank explosion or a cloud of smoke intended to obscure Ratchet and whoever else is behind him from enemy targeting?).

Yours?

News Credits: 37 · by **SlyTF1** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 6:30 pm

When Bumblebee falls on his knees when Sam dies.
Also when Jetfire shoves his faceplate thing up when he transforms
When Megatron loads his gun just before the "precious cargo" scene in ROTF
I liked Ironhide's blast flip thing in the first movie

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 7:56 pm

What do you mean by AI?

The best bits of animation for me were any moment focusing on Bumblebee's face. He could show a helluva lot of emotion despite not even having a mouth or voice.

News Credits: 5 · by **5150 Cruiser** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 12:12 am

Hmm... There are quite few key animation parts that i like in both movies. But if i had to pick key moments, these are probably my fav..

In the first movie when Bonecrusher transformed as the camera panned underneath him to the point were he slammed his foot down on the freeway. That for me, was epic! :APPLAUSE:

The detail in this scene was incredible.

In ROTF, Optimus entrance being air dropped out of the plane and mid-air transformation. All the way till his landing. This was also the first time we say him TF back into a semi. Entrance of the decade! I'm really looking forward to seeing how there going to top that in DOTM.

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:17 am

Shadowman wrote:What do you mean by AI?

The best bits of animation for me were any moment focusing on Bumblebee's face. He could show a helluva lot of emotion despite not even having a mouth or voice.

By AI, I mean anything that is not an actual flesh and blood actor which is acting a part as if it were sentient. A mock up of a flesh and blood character counts as AI, a cut-and paste does not.Anything Computer generated, remote controlled or animatronic etc. counts as AI for the purposes of this thread.

By this I mean cars & other vehicles as well, counting them as 'puppets' playing out the roles of actual thought-independent creatures.

In the case of a Human painted over with CGI (Alice), the human does not count as AI, but the CGI make-up does.

....and Bumblebee can definitely dance... :APPLAUSE:

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 10:35 am

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:
Shadowman wrote:What do you mean by AI?

The best bits of animation for me were any moment focusing on Bumblebee's face. He could show a helluva lot of emotion despite not even having a mouth or voice.

By AI, I mean anything that is not an actual flesh and blood actor which is acting a part as if it were sentient. A mock up of a flesh and blood character counts as AI, a cut-and paste does not.Anything Computer generated, remote controlled or animatronic etc. counts as AI for the purposes of this thread.

By this I mean cars & other vehicles as well, counting them as 'puppets' playing out the roles of actual thought-independent creatures.

In the case of a Human painted over with CGI (Alice), the human does not count as AI, but the CGI make-up does.

....and Bumblebee can definitely dance...

...You know that's not what AI even means, right? Nothing in the movies comes remotely CLOSE to AI.

Puppets aren't AI, in fact they're quite the opposite. If the bots animated themselves, then we'd talk, but nothing in the movies even slightly resembles Artificial Intelligence.

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:59 pm

Shadowman wrote:
Autobot Smoketreader wrote:
Shadowman wrote:What do you mean by AI?

The best bits of animation for me were any moment focusing on Bumblebee's face. He could show a helluva lot of emotion despite not even having a mouth or voice.

By AI, I mean anything that is not an actual flesh and blood actor which is acting a part as if it were sentient. A mock up of a flesh and blood character counts as AI, a cut-and paste does not.Anything Computer generated, remote controlled or animatronic etc. counts as AI for the purposes of this thread.

By this I mean cars & other vehicles as well, counting them as 'puppets' playing out the roles of actual thought-independent creatures.

In the case of a Human painted over with CGI (Alice), the human does not count as AI, but the CGI make-up does.

....and Bumblebee can definitely dance...

...You know that's not what AI even means, right? Nothing in the movies comes remotely CLOSE to AI.

Puppets aren't AI, in fact they're quite the opposite. If the bots animated themselves, then we'd talk, but nothing in the movies even slightly resembles Artificial Intelligence.

You're an idiot.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:05 pm

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:You're an idiot.

Struck a nerve? I'm just trying to explain how you're using the wrong terminology. There's a difference between "Artificial Intelligence" and "Animation." Sorry if I offended you by pointing that out.

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 2:43 pm

Shadowman wrote:
Autobot Smoketreader wrote:You're an idiot.

Struck a nerve? I'm just trying to explain how you're using the wrong terminology. There's a difference between "Artificial Intelligence" and "Animation." Sorry if I offended you by pointing that out.

Where I come from, people apologize to themselves before they do something, they don't just say a quick sorry afterwards for a gloss over.

You're not trying to explain. You're lying in wait.It's what you do to feel like you've still got the rat in the race.

There are two posts of mine in this thread touching on the defenition of AI for this thread.The second was a direct response to your baiting.I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but you couldn't resist.

I will continue to refer to it as artificial intelligence in this thread, which is the second thread of mine that you've caused me to lose interest in and no longer want to host, because animation, as a defenition, doesn't cover all the criteria I set for this thread. It's my defenition of logic, a concept I doubt you've ever asked someone to teach you about or discuss (rather than debate) with you. You are one of the people here who I would expect to work that out on spec, but you're a slave to your inner. You'll do whatever it says, not what logic says.

I'm being polite to you because I have to. In the long run, all the people around you are fantastic because other people tell them that they are, whilst you are fantastic because you tell people that you are. I will grow old with my beautiful wife and family around me, and you will be struggling to maintain every relationship putting up with your constant need to be right.

If I get a warning for this, so be it.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:11 pm

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:You're not trying to explain. You're lying in wait.It's what you do to feel like you've still got the rat in the race.

Uh...no, I was trying to explain the proper definition of AI. I really don't have ulterior motives. Trust me, if I was trying to play you I'd be asking more questions in order to have you undo your own point. That's how I roll.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:There are two posts of mine in this thread touching on the defenition of AI for this thread.The second was a direct response to your baiting.I gave you the benefit of the doubt, but you couldn't resist.

You can't make up new definitions. You can't say "This is the new definition of AI" and expect no one to challenge that. Case in point, this thread.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I will continue to refer to it as artificial intelligence in this thread, which is the second thread of mine that you've caused me to lose interest in and no longer want to host, because animation, as a defenition, doesn't cover all the criteria I set for this thread.

What other criteria is there? They're most certainly artificial, but they don't think or act independently, they have no intelligence of their own.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:It's my defenition of logic, a concept I doubt you've ever asked someone to teach you about or discuss (rather than debate) with you.

Interesting true fact: Logic dictates that when someone apologizes for offending you, you accept that and move on. Not start a wall of text because you don't feel the apology was real enough.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I'm being polite to you because I have to.

Like you last post. Or the one I'm quoting now, where you're still fighting me and claiming my apology wasn't real.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:In the long run, all the people around you are fantastic because other people tell them that they are, whilst you are fantastic because you tell people that you are.

YES! That's what I've been spending the last nine years telling people!

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:I will grow old with my beautiful wife and family around me, and you will be struggling to maintain every relationship putting up with your constant need to be right.

It's not a constant need to be right. It's a constant curse making me always right.

(The real curse: No one can tell when I'm joking or not)

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:54 pm

Shadowman wrote:
You can't make up new definitions. You can't say "This is the new definition of AI" and expect no one to challenge that. Case in point, this thread.

I didn't. I applied a patch catchall term to an unusual group classification, explaining exactly where and for how long it applies for, and what it covers. It's done in field research, lab science, Algebra and slang all the time.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 1:23 pm

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
You can't make up new definitions. You can't say "This is the new definition of AI" and expect no one to challenge that. Case in point, this thread.

I didn't. I applied a patch catchall term to an unusual group classification, explaining exactly where and for how long it applies for, and what it covers. It's done in field research, lab science, Algebra and slang all the time.

You still didn't answer my question: What other qualifications are there that you didn't think "CG animation" was an adequate term?

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 5:43 pm

Shadowman wrote:
Autobot Smoketreader wrote:
Shadowman wrote:
You can't make up new definitions. You can't say "This is the new definition of AI" and expect no one to challenge that. Case in point, this thread.

I didn't. I applied a patch catchall term to an unusual group classification, explaining exactly where and for how long it applies for, and what it covers. It's done in field research, lab science, Algebra and slang all the time.

You still didn't answer my question: What other qualifications are there that you didn't think "CG animation" was an adequate term?

It's in the posts: Cars being made to behave like creatures pretending to be cars, tho I don't have to justify myself to you twice. I've already addressed this,stating there are two posts going over it. You didn't bother acknowledging their contents because your interest is not in the topic of this thread. Kindly go find someone else to annoy.Your lordship isn't a contribution when it isn't needed.

Next time you reply to this thread I'm calling in the Moderators.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:45 pm

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:It's in the posts: Cars being made to behave like creatures pretending to be cars, tho I don't have to justify myself to you twice. I've already addressed this,stating there are two posts going over it. You didn't bother acknowledging their contents because your interest is not in the topic of this thread. Kindly go find someone else to annoy.Your lordship isn't a contribution when it isn't needed.

Next time you reply to this thread I'm calling in the Moderators.

So why couldn't you have said "Celebrating Animation and Puppetry"? This whole mess could have been avoided if you said "oops, my mistake" and changed it instead of trying to justify your error.

In fact, earlier I pointed out (After you gave it as criteria) that animation and puppetry (Which includes stunt driving in this case) are, by definition, not AI, seeing as they are directly controlled by a human being instead of having intelligence of their own. You called me an idiot for that.

And are you certain you want to call the mods in here? Your posts are littered with insults. And while I might have been coming off as arrogant (As I sometimes do) I tried apologizing for it, though that clearly didn't work since it only caused you to go into a tirade against me.

EDIT: Didn't think to add this until a moment ago: I asked for more criteria because I thought there was more. I didn't think the two you gave were the only ones. I figured you had at least a third criteria that would justify it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Could I interest you in an olive branch, perhaps?

by **G1 Smoketreader** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:03 pm

Shadowman wrote:
Autobot Smoketreader wrote:It's in the posts: Cars being made to behave like creatures pretending to be cars, tho I don't have to justify myself to you twice. I've already addressed this,stating there are two posts going over it. You didn't bother acknowledging their contents because your interest is not in the topic of this thread. Kindly go find someone else to annoy.Your lordship isn't a contribution when it isn't needed.

Next time you reply to this thread I'm calling in the Moderators.

So why couldn't you have said "Celebrating Animation and Puppetry"? This whole mess could have been avoided if you said "oops, my mistake" and changed it instead of trying to justify your error.

>>>>> Because you don't care about what I did, you only care about seeing the result of your intervention.

In fact, earlier I pointed out (After you gave it as criteria) that animation and puppetry (Which includes stunt driving in this case) are, by definition, not AI, seeing as they are directly controlled by a human being instead of having intelligence of their own. You called me an idiot for that.

>>>>>I called you an idiot for thinking I'm stupid enough to believe you need an explanation to understand what I'm saying:
As opposed to puppets and muppets, where we are targeted to fall in love with both the personality of the character and the puppetmaster/puppeteer controlling it, the "AI"TF,as a final result on the screen, is not designed to remind us that there's a puppetmaster involved, but instead to actively attack and delete that knowledge or belief. They are two different forms of delivery.I refer to the result as "AI" because it's faster than trying to go thru all the art forms, and because we're seeing the bot acting, not the artist manipulating it.

And are you certain you want to call the mods in here? Your posts are littered with insults.

>>>>> There are posts showing my patience and recording my "shame on us if..." as well. I would rather fight and get kicked out than stay and be forced to be polite to anyones pushy conduct.

And while I might have been coming off as arrogant (As I sometimes do) I tried apologizing for it, though that clearly didn't work since it only caused you to go into a tirade against me.

>>>>> My culture has a philosophy observing apologies given after a foreseen event as fake. We try not to do something we don't wish on someone until we can apologize to them and ourselves first.I accept your apology and I apologize in return.

EDIT: Didn't think to add this until a moment ago: I asked for more criteria because I thought there was more. I didn't think the two you gave were the only ones. I figured you had at least a third criteria that would justify it. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Could I interest you in an olive branch, perhaps?

>>>>>Olive branch is fine, and thank you.

The 4 criteria are enough for me.(CGI model, CGI make up/CGI model painted over human, animatronic/puppetry and vehicles being creatures (includes remote control, scale model, CGI model, shot over bluescreen and hidden driver).

For the record:Don't assume my posts being 'littered' with insults has anything to do with my not going to the Mods.I was expecting to log on and find the warning already here, against me for flaming, so I would have gone Kamikaze.I chose knowing the result.

I'll change the title to FX people or something, as a symbol of peace to mirror the Olive branch.

News Credits: 2 · by **Shadowman** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:43 pm

The thing about apologies is that often they can't be given until after the fact. You can't apologize if you don't know you're going to offend someone. And whether you believe it or not, my aim wasn't to offend or aggravate, but simply to correct. (Though I should have learned my lesson in the eighth grade wherein an attempt to correct a classmates spelling ended up with me gaining a mortal enemy. Don't ask how it happened, because I still don't know)

Now, back on top and then just slightly off topic but still in regards to spectacular animation: The fine people at Valve are masters of facial animation. For example, Meet the Spy. Keep in mind, that's entirely in-game graphics (The map is new, though, but it's has distinct elements of 2fort) from a game released in 2007, based on an engine from 2004. They give nearly obscene attention to tiny details. I could sit here for hours pointing out tiny little details like the "1" button on the keypad being heavily faded from being the only one in use, or the Scout giving a slight smirk near the end before the big reveal.

Entirely on topic: There was a documentary on one of the many movie channels (I want to say Showtime) on the history of ILM. Is' actually really, really illuminating. Though I don't think they talk about the incident where an attempt to render Devastator for ROTF melted one of their computers.

And entirely back off topic but out of sheer curiosity: What is this culture of yours? I want to say R'lyeh, but then you're not trying to cause massive crippling fear and insanity in me so I don't think that's right.

by **Capt.Failure** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:05 pm

Putting the thread back on topic!

For the first movie, definetly the autobots trying to help Sam find the glasses. It's humorous in a more subtle way, and the animations of the autobots as they help search and interact with Sam and each other comes off surprisingly human for CG creations with mechanical faces.

For RotF it's definetly the scene when Optimus and Jetfire merge. Optimus going from barely able to move to standing upright, fully powered and repaired, entering a pre-ass kicking pose as the autobot theme triuphantly blares. I've always been a sucker for the hero getting a last minute boost of strength in order to save the day.

For the whole series though it's the forest battle. The scene itself is just incredible but it best displays how far Optimus will go to defend the lives of those close to him.

Overall the CG animation in the series is great at displaying the emotion of the characters, and Bay doesn't fall victim to making the entire series loaded with, except for the transformers themselves, CG effects. Most scenes in his movies use practical effects shots if at all possible. And Bay is on record as saying he hates blue screens.

by **OptiMagnus** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:46 pm

Well, I'm glad to see the altercation has ended. Back to the real topic:

My favorite FX scene was in ROTF when Optimus transforms in front of the NEST guys near the beginning. It's just so cool to watch his detailed and complex transformation...which looks so dang real. That's what I really appreciate about Bay's work. He really brings the transformers to life right before your eyes....you don't get that from a cartoon, a comic, or a toy.
Another scene I like is when Sam first encounters the Autobot team in TF1, because it allows you to see the incredible detail of their faces. You can really see the emotion in their faces too...almost human-like.

by **Kingpun** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:49 pm

Easily my favorite part is at Sam's house in the first movie. It's Bumblebee's physical performance while Sam is trying to distract his dad at the front door. He definitely steals the focus away from Sam & Ron.

News Credits: 37 · by **SlyTF1** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:09 pm

OptiMagnus10 wrote:Well, I'm glad to see the altercation has ended. Back to the real topic:

My favorite FX scene was in ROTF when Optimus transforms in front of the NEST guys near the beginning. It's just so cool to watch his detailed and complex transformation...which looks so dang real. That's what I really appreciate about Bay's work. He really brings the transformers to life right before your eyes....you don't get that from a cartoon, a comic, or a toy.

And I liked that part too. I also liked when Optimus jumped out of the plane and Transformed. Easily one of the best scenes in any movie EVER! Also when Jetfire and Optimus combine. I also like when Jetfire falls on the ground when his parachute opens, and punches the ground. IDK, but I just like that part. And when Optimus comes back to life and spits up some dust or something.

by **JetOptimus23** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:32 pm

I liked during the forest battle when Prime was crawling over grindor's body before dissecting his head. That was funny.

by **OptiMagnus** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:48 pm

SlyTF1 wrote:
OptiMagnus10 wrote:Well, I'm glad to see the altercation has ended. Back to the real topic:

My favorite FX scene was in ROTF when Optimus transforms in front of the NEST guys near the beginning. It's just so cool to watch his detailed and complex transformation...which looks so dang real. That's what I really appreciate about Bay's work. He really brings the transformers to life right before your eyes....you don't get that from a cartoon, a comic, or a toy.

And I liked that part too. I also liked when Optimus jumped out of the plane and Transformed. Easily one of the best scenes in any movie EVER! Also when Jetfire and Optimus combine. I also like when Jetfire falls on the ground when his parachute opens, and punches the ground. IDK, but I just like that part. And when Optimus comes back to life and spits up some dust or something.

Yeah! That was pretty sweet when he transformed in free-fall.

News Credits: 37 · by **SlyTF1** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:52 pm

JetOptimus23 wrote:I liked during the forest battle when Prime was crawling over grindor's body before dissecting his head. That was funny.

I like to look at Grindor's face right before Optimus rips it apart. One of his eyes is looking up, while the other is straight, then they just separate.

News Credits: 22 · by **Rodimus Prime** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 3:36 pm

Blackout's transformation at the air force base at the beginning of the first movie, and his subsequent destruction of the base. What a way to open a movie. Chills down my spine.

Bumblebee opening a can of whoop ass on Rampage at the end of RoTF.