The Energon Pub

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

tigertracks 24 wrote:

Seibertron wrote:Haven't really thought about the Mini-Cons. I guess I'd count the Mini-Cons separately but that doesn't really work for the Mini-Cons that are included with other figures though I would consider TRU Universe Ramjet as 4 toys, not 1.

I think the minicons included with the large figures are indeed their own count or character. If you read DW's old Armada stuff, the minicons are their own people, who choose to link up, or get forced to link up, with the larger bots to power them up. The Destruction team made Cyclonus insanely powerful, but mostly insane. So they could even effect the personality of the larger robots to more or less reflect themselves to a degree.

But, as far as the toys go, they are an accessory.

But I'd probably count them, especially if I bought them individually.

It may be an accessory to the main bot, but it is still an individual Transformer in my mind. Thus it needs to get counted.

I count KO's if they are accurate to the original (no supersize, downsize or freaky colours) and would also count third party products if I were to buy any. The way I see it is that I'm collecting the characters so if a ko or third party product is obviously a certain character then I include it in my count.

Does it matter though? Your collection is YOURS how you interpret it's size is entirely up to you.

How can anyone consider the Mini-cons as just accessories?
Mini-cons are transformers!
Ion Cannons are not!

kirbenvost wrote:X number of Transformers + Y number of 3rd Party Figures = Z number of total figures.

I just think it's worth noting that they're not official figures, as awesome as they are. Otherwise I could count my KO Mirage too, but I don't.

I'm going with this. Until I change my mind!

On the minicon side of the discussion, Armada minicons are a race of their own, they have alt modes and bot modes so they definitely count by them selves, even though they were sold as an accessory. PCC minicons are essentially targetmaster style so can't function fully without the partner so I won't count them.

My collection now numbers at a measly 217 + 1 = 218, with a few more in the post.

Minicons sold with bigger bots are their accessory. That's just what they are. It's like a Targetmaster or a Headmaster or a Powermaster.

Could you sell Armada Hot Shot without Jolt and call him complete? No. Because Jolt came with Hot Shot; he is Hot Shot's accessory. So, if you're counting how many Transformers products you have there's a good case to be made not to count Minicons because that's counting the same Transformer figure twise.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Minicons sold with bigger bots are their accessory. That's just what they are. It's like a Targetmaster or a Headmaster or a Powermaster.

Could you sell Armada Hot Shot without Jolt and call him complete? No. Because Jolt came with Hot Shot; he is Hot Shot's accessory. So, if you're counting how many Transformers products you have there's a good case to be made not to count Minicons because that's counting the same Transformer figure twise.

They are only an accessory because that was the whole idea of the line. If the Emergency Team counts as 3 bots, because they are all minicons, than Hot Shot and Jolt count as two.

However, if I were selling them, and I did not have the minicon, I would have to label it as incomplete, because the complete toy is sold with two bots, the larger bot, and the minicon. BUT, just because they are sold together and Hot Shot combines with Jolt, they are two separate bots to count.

It depends how you count your toys. If you are counting them as what came packaged together to count them, I agree Hot Shot and Jolt is one, but if you are counting characters, or robots, then I see it as two!

I'd still say it's a muggy point. Two people can have 50 Transformers. But one guy can have 50 regular TFs and the other can have 25 Armada (or Headmaster or Powermaster or PCC Commander) toys and count each Minicon (or whatever) accessory as 1.

Obviously everybody will count as they will, but it seems like cheating to say you have (say) 50 TFs when half that number were bought as accessories to a larger Transformer.

Edit: And there's not much difference between WSTF Megatron and the PCC Minicons or Targetmasters, save that one's an accessory and the other a seperate buy.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I'd still say it's a muggy point. Two people can have 50 Transformers. But one guy can have 50 regular TFs and the other can have 25 Armada (or Headmaster or Powermaster or PCC Commander) toys and count each Minicon (or whatever) accessory as 1.

Obviously everybody will count as they will, but it seems like cheating to say you have (say) 50 TFs when half that number were bought as accessories to a larger Transformer.

Edit: And there's not much difference between WSTF Megatron and the PCC Minicons or Targetmasters, save that one's an accessory and the other a seperate buy.

And what about battle packs where two figures (eg Animated delux Prime and Megatron) are sold together. Most of the time minicons don't unlock any feature of the larger partner. They just have a peg to stick to.

Battle packs are generally 2 figures that stand alone being repackaged together, so there's more of a case to count that as 2.

It doesn't really matter if the Minicon activates any feature, in practise they're the main bot' accessory.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:Battle packs are generally 2 figures that stand alone being repackaged together, so there's more of a case to count that as 2.

It doesn't really matter if the Minicon activates any feature, in practise they're the main bot' accessory.

In your opinion, but not in others...FYI.

On the note about Headmasters. Megatron would disagree, he once said "A warrior doesn't need a head, just a good strong body."

Optimus Prime also once said "No. One Autobot gave his life so that six could be born. He made a choice...the kind of choice I hope they'll be able to make when the time's right." According to Optimus, a combiner team made of five members would count as six.

I do not count accessories (e.g.: minicons, targetmasters) that can transforms. Minicons trigger some functionality of their larger partner? At the end of the day, everyone has their logic and opinion.

Parts manufactured by third party, is debatable. It can be yes or no, depending on the view, but I would say no that it would not count towards my collection.

shockwave13 wrote:On the note about Headmasters. Megatron would disagree, he once said "A warrior doesn't need a head, just a good strong body."

Optimus Prime also once said "No. One Autobot gave his life so that six could be born. He made a choice...the kind of choice I hope they'll be able to make when the time's right." According to Optimus, a combiner team made of five members would count as six.

Megatron may have been talking about the ability to think for himself, but as I don't know when he said that I don't know, I'm reading that out of its context.

Prime was talking about characters. I don't think he was telling us how to count our toys! Someone else already discussed the difference between counting characters and counting toys above.

Mykltron wrote:

shockwave13 wrote:On the note about Headmasters. Megatron would disagree, he once said "A warrior doesn't need a head, just a good strong body."

Optimus Prime also once said "No. One Autobot gave his life so that six could be born. He made a choice...the kind of choice I hope they'll be able to make when the time's right." According to Optimus, a combiner team made of five members would count as six.

Megatron may have been talking about the ability to think for himself, but as I don't know when he said that I don't know, I'm reading that out of its context.

Prime was talking about characters. I don't think he was telling us how to count our toys! Someone else already discussed the difference between counting characters and counting toys above.

(this post may read as arrogant or rude but it's not intended to be!)

My final argument, even though, yes, I know that you can count how you like...

The minicons each have their own gallery here on Seibertron. No other weapons, or accessories have that only robots.

In your opinion, but not in others...FYI.

How is it my opinion? I'll bet you that HasTak sees the Minicons (or head / Target masters) packaged with robots as that robot's accessory. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Whether they're worth counting as "1 transformer" even if they are an accessory is the opinion.

The minicons each have their own gallery here on Seibertron. No other weapons, or accessories have that only robots.

Seibs seperates his gallery by character. And there's no doubt minicons and the like are characters. But there's also no doubt that they are accessories. At least they are if they came with a robot.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

In your opinion, but not in others...FYI.

How is it my opinion? I'll bet you that HasTak sees the Minicons (or head / Target masters) packaged with robots as that robot's accessory. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Whether they're worth counting as "1 transformer" even if they are an accessory is the opinion.

The minicons each have their own gallery here on Seibertron. No other weapons, or accessories have that only robots.

Seibs seperates his gallery by character. And there's no doubt minicons and the like are characters. But there's also no doubt that they are accessories. At least they are if they came with a robot.

Thus, accessories can be counted in this case, thanks for proving my point.

'I'll bet' is not an indicator of a fact, btw.

tigertracks 24 wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:

In your opinion, but not in others...FYI.

How is it my opinion? I'll bet you that HasTak sees the Minicons (or head / Target masters) packaged with robots as that robot's accessory. That's not opinion, that's fact.

Whether they're worth counting as "1 transformer" even if they are an accessory is the opinion.

The minicons each have their own gallery here on Seibertron. No other weapons, or accessories have that only robots.

Seibs seperates his gallery by character. And there's no doubt minicons and the like are characters. But there's also no doubt that they are accessories. At least they are if they came with a robot.

Okay, here's an idicator of fact: the smaller robots are treated as acessories to the larger robots.

If you don't think they're accessories, explain to me how you can call Armada Hot Shot complete on ebay without Jolt.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/Armada-HOT-SHOT-Tran ... 5d2877c1ac
http://cgi.ebay.ca/TRANSFORMERS-ARMADA- ... 3eff166181
Becuase Jolt is totally given just as much billing as Hot Shot is right there, right? After all Jolt's so prominant on the art.

BTW: Seibs also split up Supreme Devestator. By your logic, using the gallery as a base for counting, that makes him count as 6 TFs. One for each component, and one for the giant robot. Thanks for proving you don't know much about who has a gallery here, though. Unless you do think that each part of Supreme devy counts as 1 Transformer in a total TF count?

I thought you made your final argument a few posts above...

Okay, okay, back off you two! Friendly discussion! Let's not get this locked.

The relationship between minicon and er notminicon in Armada is one of teaming together. They chose to work together but can separate at any time. Headmasters have chosen to work together but splitting up that team is complicated. Armada minicons (not PCC minicons) function perfectly well alone. In fact, packs of minicons are sold without a robot to team up with and they transform into cars, planes, whatever.

I think minicons can be counted in their own right. If Gauntlet101010 chooses not to count them that's fine, even though he's totally wrong!

sorry, couldn't resist!

It always amazes me how heated this topic gets when it gets brought up...

It also always leads me back to the reflector dilemma. He is distinctively 3 robots. However without all 3 you do not have a complete altmode...you have 1/3 of a camera.

so do you count a figure as 1 only if it has 100% functionality independent of another.

If reflector is counted as 3, then do figures that do not have an independent robot mode also get counted individually?



this is y i don't count.

I'm not going to change my opinion about minicons and neither are you and that's cool. Count your collection your way and I'll count mine. I'm not here to be in a pi----g match with you, about whose is larger or what not.

I was just sticking up for the collector who wants to collect minicons, and count them in his/her collection.

I hope you don't count Ravage, Buzzsaw...which tape or tapes you got with Soundwave, if you own one though. The new fiction that HASBRO and company are using to write the TF universe calls them minicons... So tapes from G1, or G1 re-issues of Soundwave and Blaster really don't count as TFs either, because they were included at some point with Soundwave or Blaster, and are accessories/minicons.

I'm curious also, as to how you would count a team of minicons like the Emergency Team? 3 toys sold together, none is larger, so are they an accessory pack then? Or are they 3 toys? Or are they 1?

Why make it confusing when you try to count them? 1 transforming robot (or in the case of Action Masters, non-transforming) = 1 toy to count.

Yes, you can say that I collect characters, but why not? I think you might too, unless you own Starscream, and don't count Thundercracker and Skywarp. THe exact same toy, different colors, and you may even own a few different iterations of G1 Starscream (original, re-issue, TF Commemorative Boxed, etc.). Do you only count them once, or as 3?

I suspect you would count them all as I would too. That's why I can't just say I count characters, I count bots. Mini-cons may be included with a toy, but they are robots with names, personalities, and abilities.

As for ROTF Supreme Dev, I would actually only count it as one toy. The limbs/body have no robot modes. The fact that they give names to the limbs is dumb, since they are supposed to be drones, or what not, no personality, or free will.

Legends Dev is different though, as they are individual robots with stats and personalities.

I wax philosophic though. Enjoyable give and take.

If anything, we have confused the issue even more.

Enjoy your TF collection, and I will enjoy mine.

Gutter Bunny wrote:It always amazes me how heated this topic gets when it gets brought up...

It also always leads me back to the reflector dilemma. He is distinctively 3 robots. However without all 3 you do not have a complete altmode...you have 1/3 of a camera.

so do you count a figure as 1 only if it has 100% functionality independent of another.

If reflector is counted as 3, then do figures that do not have an independent robot mode also get counted individually?



this is y i don't count.

Great point!

If I was inclined to count I'd count I'd count complete or near complete Transformers purchases and not each and every single bot.

So a minicon 3 pack would be 1 purchase. Ditto Micromasters. An Reflector.

Fansproject's armor or the Gear of War would be 1 purchase.

Hot Shot and Jolt would be 1 purchase.

An incomplete TF probably wouldn't be counted unless it was near complete.

The only ones that would get muggy for me would be the battle in a box. Because each TF in them is designed to stand alone despite being a group buy; the molds are made to be sold seperately. And people frequently do sell them seperately and still accurately call them "complete".

Technically Soundwave and his casettes would follow this logic, although I dunno if I'd feel right about counting my DW reissue as 2 even though Lazerbeak used to be sold seperately. In practise he's an accessory to Soundwave in that reissue.

You're right, I can't be convinced Minicons are 1 TF when the complete package involved another bot. The entire point of them is to enhance the value of the main bot, not to be stand alone charaacters.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:If I was inclined to count I'd count I'd count complete or near complete Transformers purchases and not each and every single bot.

So a minicon 3 pack would be 1 purchase. Ditto Micromasters. An Reflector.

Fansproject's armor or the Gear of War would be 1 purchase.

Hot Shot and Jolt would be 1 purchase.

An incomplete TF probably wouldn't be counted unless it was near complete.

The only ones that would get muggy for me would be the battle in a box. Because each TF in them is designed to stand alone despite being a group buy; the molds are made to be sold seperately. And people frequently do sell them seperately and still accurately call them "complete".

Technically Soundwave and his casettes would follow this logic, although I dunno if I'd feel right about counting my DW reissue as 2 even though Lazerbeak used to be sold seperately. In practise he's an accessory to Soundwave in that reissue.

You're right, I can't be convinced Minicons are 1 TF when the complete package involved another bot. The entire point of them is to enhance the value of the main bot, not to be stand alone charaacters.

so how would you feel about energon combiners. Many of them were released both as sets or individual bots depending on the line.

Gutter Bunny wrote:

Gauntlet101010 wrote:If I was inclined to count I'd count I'd count complete or near complete Transformers purchases and not each and every single bot.

So a minicon 3 pack would be 1 purchase. Ditto Micromasters. An Reflector.

Fansproject's armor or the Gear of War would be 1 purchase.

Hot Shot and Jolt would be 1 purchase.

An incomplete TF probably wouldn't be counted unless it was near complete.

The only ones that would get muggy for me would be the battle in a box. Because each TF in them is designed to stand alone despite being a group buy; the molds are made to be sold seperately. And people frequently do sell them seperately and still accurately call them "complete".

Technically Soundwave and his casettes would follow this logic, although I dunno if I'd feel right about counting my DW reissue as 2 even though Lazerbeak used to be sold seperately. In practise he's an accessory to Soundwave in that reissue.

You're right, I can't be convinced Minicons are 1 TF when the complete package involved another bot. The entire point of them is to enhance the value of the main bot, not to be stand alone charaacters.

so how would you feel about energon combiners. Many of them were released both as sets or individual bots depending on the line.

I think the logic for Energon Combiners (or even most combiners in general) work the same as the battle in a box figures. Each one was made to be sold individually, therefore, each can count as one complete TF all on it's own. If you take them out of the box there'd be no difference than if you bought them all individually ... you'd just kinda feel ripped off depending on the cost difference.

The only one that gives me pause are releases like RiD Bruticus and Classics Devestator where the recolor is sold as a set and not individually. But even then it's possible to split the set up and say an individual bot is complete while another is incomplete.

Perhapse it'd be the most correct to count a set release like that as just 1 purchase. An MISB collector would probably count it as just one item in his collection. However, that logic may be too strict as it'd flow into expencive Botcon box sets.

Thanks to tigertracks 24 I'm now confused about Ravage etc. as without Soundwave they are pretty useless in alt mode.

Going by the full functionality argument Reflector is one. Tapes can't do much by themselves, neither can guns and heads, but then neither can cars - they normally don't drive themselves. Now I'm so confused I don't know where I live or what my name is.

I can't count on my own anymore, so I turned to a site to help me manage (I wish we had this data tied into the VSD here, but I go where I've got to go):

http://www.shmax.com/view_collection/1/50

By that site's counts, I have 1373 "packages", which expands to 1951 "figures".