The Energon Pub

Arctorro wrote:

megatronus wrote:Why should I tell FP they suck over a figure I like?

You're looking at one small part of his post, though I do agree that saying they suck is going to far. Diesel is a great figure, I like him waaay more than I thought I would, but there are a number of design flaws. They made the transformation so complicated that there is plenty of very thin spots that are developing stress marks that could limit how well he stands the test of time. The waist is badly designed (I'm talking mainly of the tight as hell joint the folding arm attaches to) and once in motion feels alright, but getting it moving is scary as hell. Many of the tabs were poorly thought out and suffer from a high risk of breaking. Then there are the combiner connecters, the are the worst I have ever seen! The connecters and shoulder assemblies seem to be designed to break A lot of people give TFC a hard time, but my Herc and Uranos have superb connecter ports that are strong, sturdy and allow for easy and safe connecting/disconnecting. M3 is a pain in the arse to assemble or disassemble.

Transforming a Transformer shouldn't be a scary or irritating excise, which can be the case with Diesel. I think this is what Shadowstream is getting at, FP did many things right, but also dropped the ball quite badly. With everyone banging on about how great M3 is while ignoring the issues they have with the rest it could mean that FP won't improve in these areas with later releases. The same can be said for UT and KFC, they produce crap that is not ever close to what MMC, FT and PE are doing atm, but everyone forgives them for that because of a couple of good things about their figures. People bitch about lack of quality with some 3P companies then give the dodgy companies a free pass

Diesel isn't a Transformer... he's an FP product. And while I do hold Diesel, and FP, to high standards, and while transforming Diesel was somewhat complicated and scary *the first time* (and I do stress *the first time*), I don't seem to be having any of the problems others have been having. No stress marks, no broken tabs, nothing.

Yes, the connectors on M3 are a pain - I freely admit this. But I find his joints and connectors far, far more secure than Herc's connectors. Also, I find M3 is similarly far, far less likely to crumple under his own weight than Hercules. M3's joints are strong, he's flexible, and his feet have grip.

My point is that sure, people (myself included) can be seen as fawning over this thing, and it's not for lack of flaws. It's because I feel Diesel's (and M3's) strengths far outweigh its weaknesses. People that buy UT & KFC stuff feel the same. The only way the companies learn to fix these issues are (1) deficit of sales, or the prospect of such a deficit, and (2) strong competition. That's the best we can hope for. Our b*tching matters less to these 3P groups (I suspect).

megatronus wrote:My point is that sure, people (myself included) can be seen as fawning over this thing, and it's not for lack of flaws. It's because I feel Diesel's (and M3's) strengths far outweigh its weaknesses. People that buy UT & KFC stuff feel the same. The only way the companies learn to fix these issues are (1) deficit of sales, or the prospect of such a deficit, and (2) strong competition. That's the best we can hope for. Our b*tching matters less to these 3P groups (I suspect).

That sounds pretty defeatist/complacent to me. Sure, some people enjoy these these things saying the positive outweighs the negative, and I have no problem with that. It's when the vocal majority of those that do outweigh the critics where I think we're letting these companies off too much. There needs to be a balanced ratio of praise to criticism to keep everything in line.

No, these companies aren't obliged to listen to criticism if we've already bought their stuff, but I think it would be amiss if- as FAN based companies- they didn't take our criticism to consideration.

Agamemnon wrote:I loved my Hound. Hated my Grimlock. Though I was only slightly concerned about breaking a part on Grimlock, it became more of an irritating exercise to transform him.

Oh, and I would throw Masterpiece Megs and Rodimus in this as well. I never had fun transforming them.

Hound is great, but I missed out on Grimlock, so can't comment on him. Never got MP Megs, but Rodimus had parts falling off him out of the box and others not fitting together properly during transformation. Guess even Takara screw up now and then.

megatronus wrote:Diesel isn't a Transformer... he's an FP product. And while I do hold Diesel, and FP, to high standards, and while transforming Diesel was somewhat complicated and scary *the first time* (and I do stress *the first time*), I don't seem to be having any of the problems others have been having. No stress marks, no broken tabs, nothing.

Yes, the connectors on M3 are a pain - I freely admit this. But I find his joints and connectors far, far more secure than Herc's connectors. Also, I find M3 is similarly far, far less likely to crumple under his own weight than Hercules. M3's joints are strong, he's flexible, and his feet have grip.

Diesel may not be a brand name transformer, but he is still a transforming toy, which is what I was getting at. Personally my Diesel only has one stress mark (that I've noticed) and has gotten easier to transform each time, except for the one waist connector. Still feels like it'll snap like a twig until it is moving

Everyone has different experiences with these figures, I still claim that my Herc is rock solid (he is on my desk atm standing nice and straight) with strong easy to use connectors. With M3, his legs pop off easily, while the arms are a bit hit and miss. They are all very secure, but there is secure and there is going to far. FP went to far with M3. I do like the grippy feet though

Shadowstream wrote:

megatronus wrote:My point is that sure, people (myself included) can be seen as fawning over this thing, and it's not for lack of flaws. It's because I feel Diesel's (and M3's) strengths far outweigh its weaknesses. People that buy UT & KFC stuff feel the same. The only way the companies learn to fix these issues are (1) deficit of sales, or the prospect of such a deficit, and (2) strong competition. That's the best we can hope for. Our b*tching matters less to these 3P groups (I suspect).

That sounds pretty defeatist/complacent to me. Sure, some people enjoy these these things saying the positive outweighs the negative, and I have no problem with that. It's when the vocal majority of those that do outweigh the critics where I think we're letting these companies off too much. There needs to be a balanced ratio of praise to criticism to keep everything in line.

No, these companies aren't obliged to listen to criticism if we've already bought their stuff, but I think it would be amiss if- as FAN based companies- they didn't take our criticism to consideration.

I'm with Shadowstream on this one. That said, I've played with Diesel a lot more that Warden since opening my last PoL even though Warden is a better quality figure. The difference is that I'm not going to gloss over the negatives simply because there are a few good things about him. FP dropped the ball on this one just as much as TFC did with Uranos and they should be called out on it. Granted they most likely won't listen, but the fandom should still gripe about it in the hopes that next time they will do a little better.

As for KFC, for some stupid reason I've bought six of their cassettes and can say in no uncertain terms that the almost nonexistent strengths definitely do not out way the weaknesses. KFC produce over-priced crap, and hopefully I've learned my lesson!

Shadowstream wrote:

megatronus wrote:My point is that sure, people (myself included) can be seen as fawning over this thing, and it's not for lack of flaws. It's because I feel Diesel's (and M3's) strengths far outweigh its weaknesses. People that buy UT & KFC stuff feel the same. The only way the companies learn to fix these issues are (1) deficit of sales, or the prospect of such a deficit, and (2) strong competition. That's the best we can hope for. Our b*tching matters less to these 3P groups (I suspect).

That sounds pretty defeatist/complacent to me. Sure, some people enjoy these these things saying the positive outweighs the negative, and I have no problem with that. It's when the vocal majority of those that do outweigh the critics where I think we're letting these companies off too much. There needs to be a balanced ratio of praise to criticism to keep everything in line.

No, these companies aren't obliged to listen to criticism if we've already bought their stuff, but I think it would be amiss if- as FAN based companies- they didn't take our criticism to consideration.

I'm not sure why there needs to be a balanced ratio between criticism and praise. If the strengths do indeed outweigh the weaknesses, and those being vocal are indeed a majority, why should a company be panned for a job well done? At the end of the day, yes, companies making products for fans should be listening to the fans. But I would wager that those companies also understand that those being vocal, whether for or against a product, may be a blustering minority. That's why these companies often listen to a more measurable and absolute metric: units sold. (Exceptions include flaws where parts need replacement, i.e. TFC's Heavy Labor's hips & MMC's Bovis' elbow.)

That's not defeatist - from a business standpoint, that's just being realistic. People vote with their wallets.

Arctorro wrote:

Shadowstream wrote:No, these companies aren't obliged to listen to criticism if we've already bought their stuff, but I think it would be amiss if- as FAN based companies- they didn't take our criticism to consideration.

I'm with Shadowstream on this one. That said, I've played with Diesel a lot more that Warden since opening my last PoL even though Warden is a better quality figure. The difference is that I'm not going to gloss over the negatives simply because there are a few good things about him. FP dropped the ball on this one just as much as TFC did with Uranos and they should be called out on it. Granted they most likely won't listen, but the fandom should still gripe about it in the hopes that next time they will do a little better.

As for KFC, for some stupid reason I've bought six of their cassettes and can say in no uncertain terms that the almost nonexistent strengths definitely do not out way the weaknesses. KFC produce over-priced crap, and hopefully I've learned my lesson!

I'm not saying you shouldn't complain - just the opposite! Definitely complain, gripe, curse, spit... whatever helps you express yourself.

My objection is to (1) arbitrarily balancing praise and criticism, (2) thinking that our complaints will lead to real change in the products themselves, and (3) telling me to criticize something I like.

Like I said, fans vote with their wallets. I don't think you can reasonably expect KFC to produce better product if you keep buying their crap.

megatronus wrote:

Shadowstream wrote:

megatronus wrote:My point is that sure, people (myself included) can be seen as fawning over this thing, and it's not for lack of flaws. It's because I feel Diesel's (and M3's) strengths far outweigh its weaknesses. People that buy UT & KFC stuff feel the same. The only way the companies learn to fix these issues are (1) deficit of sales, or the prospect of such a deficit, and (2) strong competition. That's the best we can hope for. Our b*tching matters less to these 3P groups (I suspect).

That sounds pretty defeatist/complacent to me. Sure, some people enjoy these these things saying the positive outweighs the negative, and I have no problem with that. It's when the vocal majority of those that do outweigh the critics where I think we're letting these companies off too much. There needs to be a balanced ratio of praise to criticism to keep everything in line.

No, these companies aren't obliged to listen to criticism if we've already bought their stuff, but I think it would be amiss if- as FAN based companies- they didn't take our criticism to consideration.

I'm not sure why there needs to be a balanced ratio between criticism and praise. If the strengths do indeed outweigh the weaknesses, and those being vocal are indeed a majority, why should a company be panned for a job well done? At the end of the day, yes, companies making products for fans should be listening to the fans. But I would wager that those companies also understand that those being vocal, whether for or against a product, may be a blustering minority. That's why these companies often listen to a more measurable and absolute metric: units sold. (Exceptions include flaws where parts need replacement, i.e. TFC's Heavy Labor's hips & MMC's Bovis' elbow.)

That's not defeatist - from a business standpoint, that's just being realistic. People vote with their wallets.

Arctorro wrote:

Shadowstream wrote:No, these companies aren't obliged to listen to criticism if we've already bought their stuff, but I think it would be amiss if- as FAN based companies- they didn't take our criticism to consideration.

I'm with Shadowstream on this one. That said, I've played with Diesel a lot more that Warden since opening my last PoL even though Warden is a better quality figure. The difference is that I'm not going to gloss over the negatives simply because there are a few good things about him. FP dropped the ball on this one just as much as TFC did with Uranos and they should be called out on it. Granted they most likely won't listen, but the fandom should still gripe about it in the hopes that next time they will do a little better.

As for KFC, for some stupid reason I've bought six of their cassettes and can say in no uncertain terms that the almost nonexistent strengths definitely do not out way the weaknesses. KFC produce over-priced crap, and hopefully I've learned my lesson!

I'm not saying you shouldn't complain - just the opposite! Definitely complain, gripe, curse, spit... whatever helps you express yourself.

My objection is to (1) arbitrarily balancing praise and criticism, (2) thinking that our complaints will lead to real change in the products themselves, and (3) telling me to criticize something I like.

Like I said, fans vote with their wallets. I don't think you can reasonably expect KFC to produce better product if you keep buying their crap.

I'm in agreeness,Looking at sales & order units sold. Is the only way for 3rd party companies to see what fans like.

3rd party companies are not stupid. They are well aware of the extent overly obsessive fans will go through to cheat & dominant stuff. need I remind everyone of Erector. Those with more time on there hands,higher egos,will go through extreme measures to make it look like the minority is the majority. Often times this obsession leads some to join all the forums,create more user names. Overly post & Repeat the same opinion everywhere overly hundrefold.

megatronus wrote:I'm not saying you shouldn't complain - just the opposite! Definitely complain, gripe, curse, spit... whatever helps you express yourself.

My objection is to (1) arbitrarily balancing praise and criticism, (2) thinking that our complaints will lead to real change in the products themselves, and (3) telling me to criticize something I like.

Oh I will definitely complain, gripe, curse, spit etc!

The balancing praise and criticism is the one bit I wasn't quite on-board with, but our complaints have lead to companies making changes in the past. By no means must anyone criticize something they like, my annoyance is that a heap of people (on other sites as well) are ignoring the QC issues they themselves where bitching about simply because M3 is fairly good. That encourages FP to do a half-arsed job with their next combiner as long as the gestalt is good.

There are those saying that M3 is now their benchmark for gestalts even though they themselves have said; Diesel is a pain to transform, is covered in stress marks, has broken tabs out of the box, broken limb-bots and many other issues

How is that a benchmark?

So yes, my comments weren't strictly aimed at you, I was probably not expressing myself properly from lack of sleep

megatronus wrote:Like I said, fans vote with their wallets. I don't think you can reasonably expect KFC to produce better product if you keep buying their crap.

I know, right, I've got to stop buying their stuff!

Arctorro wrote:The balancing praise and criticism is the one bit I wasn't quite on-board with, but our complaints have lead to companies making changes in the past. By no means must anyone criticize something they like, my annoyance is that a heap of people (on other sites as well) are ignoring the QC issues they themselves where bitching about simply because M3 is fairly good. That encourages FP to do a half-arsed job with their next combiner as long as the gestalt is good.

There are those saying that M3 is now their benchmark for gestalts even though they themselves have said; Diesel is a pain to transform, is covered in stress marks, has broken tabs out of the box, broken limb-bots and many other issues

How is that a benchmark?

So yes, my comments weren't strictly aimed at you, I was probably not expressing myself properly from lack of sleep

Oh, I never supposed you had any ill-intent.

I definitely don't consider M3 a benchmark for gestalts. I do, however, consider M3 a benchmark for FansProject gestalts.

megatronus wrote:Oh, I never supposed you had any ill-intent.

I definitely don't consider M3 a benchmark for gestalts. I do, however, consider M3 a benchmark for FansProject gestalts.

M3 is their benchmark. Hopefully the team that made him is taking notes from the headmaster team to do even better with the next one.

Arctorro wrote:

megatronus wrote:Oh, I never supposed you had any ill-intent.

I definitely don't consider M3 a benchmark for gestalts. I do, however, consider M3 a benchmark for FansProject gestalts.

M3 is their benchmark. Hopefully the team that made him is taking notes from the headmaster team to do even better with the next one.

I'm wondering if FP has anymore interest in doing more 1980's TF combiners. So far FP did the Stunticons & the Glacialbots.

If FP ever decides to make more newer combiners. Than I prefer they do ones that others haven't. Like a FP Abonimus,FP Liokaiser.

Does FP consider the add ons for the HasTak ROTF Superion & ROTF Bruticus as there definate versions for these toys?

Will FP ever feel the need to make combiners that others have made already like Predaking,Superion,Bruticus & Devastator? I didn't mention TFC Defensor & Computron because they are not released yet.

Maketoys is friends with FP, so I doubt they'd make another. Plus, the sizes would be too similar, I think.

I think FP considers Superion "done" as far as they're concerned. I'd be very surprised if they made a Superion. I don't see why they'd make a Predaking with 3 already on the table (not including the Crazy Devy and CD-KO enhansement sets).

I could see them doing a Defensor. And I'd be happy if they did. Even if I'm on the fence on TFC's take.

But we'll see if they do more combiners. It all depends on how well Intimidator did overall.