The Energon Pub

by **Rodimus the Prime** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:26 pm

I thought this would be interesting to discuss on it's own given the variety of opinions on the emphasis on "More human drama than ever before."

For my part, I'd argue no, a TF show doesn't always need human characters to be an integral part of a show or series. I'm aware of the opinion that a show needs human characters in order for kid's to 'see themselves in the adventure,' and relate, but consider this...
When I was a kid the robots were what interested me. Cybertron is what interested me. The robots were the characters I'd wanted to see myself in. When my friends and I 'played' Transformers on the playground at school (toys having to remain at home in fear of confiscation), no one ever pretended to be Spike; you were Optimus, Sideswipe, Prowl, Hound, Mirage, etc. When it was time to play with the toys....Nobody ever pretended that Spike was around; human characters didn't exist, and the only time they were remotely cool is when the humans themselves transformed into heads, guns, or engines! :lol:

Beast Wars proved in spades, that you don't need human characters to have a successful series, I'd therefore argue that what is really needed is skillful writing (i.e. have a child-like character embodied in one of the heroes, ala Cheetor)
So, thoughts anyone?

News Credits: 37 · by **SlyTF1** » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:58 pm

No. I want to see a show set on Cybertron. Not a video game that takes 6 hours to beat, but a series that can take 3-7 years to finnish. It would be fine if the TFs where on earth but no major human characters. There can be military officials like in the movies, but no damn kids!

by **3.8TransAM** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 7:33 am

No to the kids as well.

Also keep the humans as background noise and out of the spot light as well.

On Cybertron u dont need humans whatsoever.

On earth u can see it, kinda hard to have 30 ft tall robots and humans missing it all lol

by **Stormer** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 8:46 pm

Heck NO!!!! I think the human element really limits the story to Earth - and TF really needs to be in space and on Cybertron. I love those stories that have few or no humans in them - like Stormbringer or Last Stand of the Wreckers (I didn't mind Verity - I guess cause she was the only one). Those stories not based on our planet are the most exciting and enjoyable to read for me.

by **Chupacabra Convoy** » Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:01 pm

Well, long story short: No, but it helps. By that I mean how well the idea is executed by the show's creators. For instance the idea being a headmaster appeals to a lot of people here. Just look at the "What would you rather be, a Starfleet Captain or a Transformer?" thread. A lot people answered that they would be a headmaster. Me? I'd rather be a Godmaster if I had to be a Transformer.

Also, who didn't get a kick seeing Starscream driven by Cobra Commander? And human haters give Sari a grudging amount of respect. So again, it's how it is executed is the issue.
A good bad example is Kicker. He did fight a decent amount, but nobody could stand his whining. If you read the wiki on him and certain aspects of kiss players doesn't read as bad they are, but when you see them in practice they're mostly terrible.

So again, no they're not needed, but they help when handle properly. I'm totally sure somebody made this point already.

News Credits: 2 · by **partholon** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 9:50 am

no it doesnt.

but by christ are hasbro hell bent on inflicting the **** on us.

seriously ,WHO the hell started putting kids in animated shows. at least in G1 spike was the far side of 16 and had the decency to stay the hell out of most of the screen time.

its got to the stage now though that "kids in the show" is the new "singing and dancing" in disney films of time gone by.

give me a hardcore TF series set during the begging of the war on cybertron with no squishies and ill be ecstatic.

News Credits: 1452 · by **Blurrz** » Mon Aug 16, 2010 8:45 pm

If it's set in present day Earth, then yes. If not, then no.

by **Dagon** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 11:29 am

Simply, no, it doesn't.

Most people will argue that a human character gives us someone we can related to, what with out being humans and all ourselves. However, I'm not a wizard, and I can read and relate to Harry Potter. I'm not a vampire, but I can read and relate to Dracula. I've never built a man from dead flesh and tissue, but I can relate to Victor Frankenstein.
We don't need a human to relate to. That's why the characters are supposed to have personalities and such, so that we find things we relate to within that. There were no humans in Beast Wars, which is essentially universally loved. The proto-humans that Cheetor befriends shouldn't count. If a TF series requires a human so that we can relate to something, then my arguement becomes that most everyone loves Beast Wars, and those who don't like Beast Wars generally seem to dislike it because of the organic ness, not because it lacks humans. It was a series set on earth, without lame and irritating human characters. But no one ever says "Man, Beast Wars sucks because there's no humans in it!!!!!!"
Because, if you have something that is supposed to focus on alien robots, your story shouldn't pivot on the involvement of humans who are not aliens nor robots.

by **Skywarp_86** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 6:16 pm

I agree with what's being said. TV execs and such always want to stick some hapless human kid into every series like this because they think that's what kids want. If not for this directive, I doubt any of us would have been subjected to the Witwickys, Scott Trakkers, Wonder Twins or even Snarfs of the world.

News Credits: 7 · by **TulioDude** » Tue Aug 17, 2010 8:06 pm

Wouldn't be silly have Transformers on earth with no humans ever appeared?
"In ur plnet distro1ng ur bildings11"

I think when you have a series set on earth,its interesting to have the humans point of view of Transformers on their planet.

In G1 there was a some of catastrophes like "Ultimate Doom" and the Autobots rebuilding earth in "Countdwon for extintiction".Many bad things happened for humans there but we never get to see that.

The impact they have on humans is important.

by **UM Prime** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:41 am

there just to whiny and annoying and the autobots like to take them to combat which is really smart

by **Zombie Starscream** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:28 am

Yes, but oftentimes the existing human characters aren't written very well. They are either kid sidekicks, or over the top villians, or love-smitten women.

If they had a character(s) who was more an adult (no teens!), sensible, and plausible, then there shouldn't be a problem.

But they write the humans like crap and make them obnoxious tykes or know-it-all teens, so it's no wonder we don't like them.

News Credits: 456 · by **Sabrblade** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:16 am

Like others have stated, human characters are not needed to establish the success of a TF series. They can help (or in some cases harm) its success, but how well a TF series does is not entirely dependant on its human characters.

Beast Wars, and even Beast Machines (the only TF cartoon both based solely on Cybertron and completely devoid of humans), have shown that humans are not needed to make a series work.

Here's what I get from the whole "relate to kids" deal. The human characters are supposedly meant to be the ones that the kids relate to because the robots are supposed to be seen as "more than human" or "gods above mankind". It's believed that it would be easier for a kid to relate to the tag along human instead of the supernatural metallic titan.

But, it's series like the above-mentioned Beast Era ones that show that the robot characters can be relatable to children. I myself never really viewed the Cybertronians as godlike beings of higher race that none but those who were chosen could approach. To me, they were just ordinary people with ordinary lives who were dragged into their own civil conflicts like our own.

HOWEVER, there is ONE series out there that not only had the MOST human characters, but was dependent on them and turned out to be AWESOME! That series was Transformers: Chojin Masterforce! Out of all of the Autobot and Decepticon characters in this series, only 2 out of 15 Autobots and 3 out of 14 Decepticons (as well as all their drone units) were wholly robotic, and not organic in any way. Yet, this series had probably the best executuion of its human characters out of every series. All were utilized in ways that both made them competent and cool. This was mostly because they were all Autobot and Decepticon soldiers on their own, whether they were Headmaster Juniors (children/teens), Godmasters (young adults/mid-adults), or Pretenders (robots with wholly organic forms - the Autobots were human adults, and the Decepticons were monsters). And then there's the oddball of the bunch, Devil Z, who was neither metallic nor organic, but a superenergy being, a Decepticon "god" of sorts.

SlyTF1 wrote:No. I want to see a show set on Cybertron.

Done. It's called "Beast Machines".

Stormer wrote:Heck NO!!!! I think the human element really limits the story to Earth - and TF really needs to be in space and on Cybertron.

This I cannot agree with. The main schtick of the entire Transformers franchise is that they are "robots in disguise". If they're in space all the time, what have they to be in disguise from?

Chupacabra Convoy wrote:Me? I'd rather be a Godmaster if I had to be a Transformer.

You do know that being a Godmaster is a permanent deal, whereas a Headmaster Junior can willingly go back to being an ordinary human.

Chupacabra Convoy wrote:A good bad example is Kicker. He did fight a decent amount, but nobody could stand his whining. If you read the wiki on him and certain aspects of kiss players doesn't read as bad they are, but when you see them in practice they're mostly terrible.

Yes, Kicker was annoying, but there is one merit of his that cannot be denied. He's probably the only human to confront and face off against Galvatron, by himself!

partholon wrote:at least in G1 spike was the far side of 16 and had the decency to stay the hell out of most of the screen time.

16? Then why was he questioned by a cop asking him if he was old enough to be driving?

Zombie Starscream wrote:Yes, but oftentimes the existing human characters aren't written very well. They are either kid sidekicks, or over the top villians, or love-smitten women.

If they had a character(s) who was more an adult (no teens!), sensible, and plausible, then there shouldn't be a problem.

But they write the humans like crap and make them obnoxious tykes or know-it-all teens, so it's no wonder we don't like them.

What about G1 season 3 Spike, who was then an adult, as well as Earth's ambassador to Cybertron?

Website · by **RK_Striker_JK_5** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:01 pm

For me, the G1 animated humans weren't too bad. Spike, Sparkplug, Karly and Chip all had skills that enabled them to be kept around. Sparkplug was an adult, too. *Gasp!*

All four were adept mechanics at least.

News Credits: 767 · by **Dead Metal** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 1:58 pm

No they are not needed, but if the show's set on earth there should be a few humans as a means to not make it easier for us to relate to the robots, but to make it easier for the robots to relate and adapt to our world, but damn keep the children out of the war. Best humans where in this order:
Verity, Hunter and Jimmy from idw
Fanzone, Prof Sumdac and Sari from Animated
And lastly Spike and Sparkplug from the G1 toon

the rest so far have sucked.

Basically humans should be used as a means for the bots to understand earth but should not distract from the robots since that's what you want when you watch or read TF, big freaking robots from outer space and not humans which you see every day in real life.

by **Stormer** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:21 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Stormer wrote:Heck NO!!!! I think the human element really limits the story to Earth - and TF really needs to be in space and on Cybertron.

This I cannot agree with. The main schtick of the entire Transformers franchise is that they are "robots in disguise". If they're in space all the time, what have they to be in disguise from?

Okay, allow me to elaborate then. If they can trasform and be disguised on Earth, whose to say they can't do that somewhere else - and, ironically (not really - I kid) they do. Surely in the vastness of space, they can find someplace more interesting than Earth to need a disguise! All I'm saying is there is the potential for so much more - if it's not limited to earth and having to add human drama to the story.

Otherwise, I agree with you! :-?

by **Chupacabra Convoy** » Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:46 pm

Sabrblade wrote:
Chupacabra Convoy wrote:Me? I'd rather be a Godmaster if I had to be a Transformer.
You do know that being a Godmaster is a permanent deal, whereas a Headmaster Junior can willingly go back to being an ordinary human.

That I did not know, but didn't Godmasters transectors become sentient Transformers after a while? If that's the case I can fight for a good cause, and walk away but still contribute something that keeps on going for the war effort.

Sabrblade wrote:Yes, Kicker was annoying, but there is one merit of his that cannot be denied. He's probably the only human to confront and face off against Galvatron, by himself!

Dude, I think we're banging the same drum here. Kicker is not useless but still mostly unbearable to most people. Again, he just needs to be better executed.

My motto about ideas is that none of them are stupid, but it's the execution that makes them stupid.

For instance Batman: The idea/concept of Batman is so great that only a total idiot can mess it up, like Joel Schumacher.

News Credits: 767 · by **Dead Metal** » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:21 am

Sabrblade wrote:
Chupacabra Convoy wrote:A good bad example is Kicker. He did fight a decent amount, but nobody could stand his whining. If you read the wiki on him and certain aspects of kiss players doesn't read as bad they are, but when you see them in practice they're mostly terrible.
Yes, Kicker was annoying, but there is one merit of his that cannot be denied. He's probably the only human to confront and face off against Galvatron, by himself!

So Spike in Headmasters had a diplomatic meeting with Galvatron and then fought off Tripticon by himself.

News Credits: 456 · by **Sabrblade** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:28 pm

Chupacabra Convoy wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Chupacabra Convoy wrote:Me? I'd rather be a Godmaster if I had to be a Transformer.
You do know that being a Godmaster is a permanent deal, whereas a Headmaster Junior can willingly go back to being an ordinary human.

That I did not know, but didn't Godmasters transectors become sentient Transformers after a while? If that's the case I can fight for a good cause, and walk away but still contribute something that keeps on going for the war effort.

Actually, when one dons Headmaster Junior Master-Braces, they can be easily removed whenever one wants to quit. But when one dons Godmaster Master-Braces, they are permanently bonded to the wrists of the wearer and cannot be removed (unless there involves some hands being cut off, but that's different).

The only reasons the Transtectors became sentient in the end were because:

A) Hydra and Buster willingly allowed Devil Z to strip them of their humanity, turning their organic bodies into robot bodies. They still had to bond wit htheir Transtectors to transform, but they were no longer human, having their Jinchōkon replaced with Devil Power.
B) Devil Z used his own powers to grant life to Decepticon Headmaster Juniors' and Clouder's Transtectors, making them into fully living Decepticon soldiers (even though Doubleclouder's Robot Mode is that of an Autobot).
C) After Devil Z's destruction, the link that joined the humans to their Transtectors had been severed, along with all their Master-Braces vanishing. But the strong bond that the humans had had with their Transtectors had granted the Transtectors life of their own, becoming full-fledged super robot lifeforms on their own.

Dead Metal wrote:
Sabrblade wrote:
Chupacabra Convoy wrote:A good bad example is Kicker. He did fight a decent amount, but nobody could stand his whining. If you read the wiki on him and certain aspects of kiss players doesn't read as bad they are, but when you see them in practice they're mostly terrible.
Yes, Kicker was annoying, but there is one merit of his that cannot be denied. He's probably the only human to confront and face off against Galvatron, by himself!

So Spike in Headmasters had a diplomatic meeting with Galvatron and then fought off Tripticon by himself.

Simply talking with Galvatron is not the same thing as actually engaging him in combat. Besides, that wasn't even Galvatron. It was Sixshot in disguise.

And if you're referring to "I Risk My Life for Earth", Spike did not fight Trypticon, Metroplex did. Spike just called out to Metroplex and got shot by a stray blast from the fight.

Website · by **Skullgrin140** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 2:53 pm

Well really the human character is there only just for the younger audience to grasp a hold of and understand there purpose for being there, but really a Transformers show or movie is alot better off without the human ally.

Things like Beast Wars/Machines & WFC have done so well without them, however the Unicron trilogy holds the most popular distinction of having some of the worst human allies ever to blight those 3 shows.

G1 & Animated have some actually very good human allies and have prooved to be quite likeable...except for Daniel.

But seriously I think we are alot better off without the human allies and if they have at least a few then maybe the military like in the movies because everywhere the military & transformers are theres always action.

Still it would be nice to see a TF TV show without humans, gives us something to not complain about for a while.

Website · by **RK_Striker_JK_5** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 4:10 pm

I think one of these days a counting should be done of the number of times:

1. Spike was involved in combat situations with the Decepticons.

2. How many times it was by deliberate involvement by him and how many times it was not. By that I mean differentiating between him and Bumblebee going on a scouting mission with Bumblebee and him and Bumblebee on a street corner and Ravage attacks.

News Credits: 20 · by **Neko** » Fri Aug 20, 2010 8:53 pm

Quick answer? No. As long as it's a good story.

by **Windsweeper** » Thu Aug 26, 2010 1:41 pm

Beast Wars and War for Cybertron prove that humans aren't required.

I hate Kicker but he's nowhere near as annoying as Armada's Carlos or ROTF's Leo. I'm actually disgusted to hear Leo is returning for TF3 in a larger role.

Otherwise I had no problem with the other humans in the Bay movies. I disliked Simmons in TF1 but he grew on me in ROTF. I loved Sam's parents in TF1 but they were let down by a bad script in ROTF.

In Animated, the human villains were slaggin' awful. It could have been the best TF series, even knocking Beast Wars from it's throne. Some amazing characterisations for the TF's but what were they thinking when they came up with Professor Princess and Angry Archer? They wrote the TF's so well then ruin it by giving us terrible Teen Titans type human villains.

Strangely, IDW's no human storyline, Stormbringer, was terrible to me. Not from a lack of humans but it just seemed dull and using the ever boring Prime and Jetfire really turned me off. I love Transformers for the Transformer characters but Optimus and Jetfire are just boring to me. It just goes to show that a TF only series can be lacking too. It really is down to the characters portrayal whether human, Autobot or Decepticon.

Wreckers and Maximum Dinobots are perfect examples of how humans should be portrayed. Keep them interesting like Hunter and Verity but don't overuse them and give us interesting TF's like Overlord, Grimlock or Repugnus.

On a side note, I hated Circuit Breaker growing up but liked the Roadjammers and Blaster/Sky Lynx's kid sidekicks. I'm sure most fans were reversed in that opinion.

by **ponycorn** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:16 pm

Humans are definitely needed for any story involving Earth, or for far-future story lines where humans along with other species all interact in space.

Don't forget Marrisa Farborn - http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Marissa. SHE is the type of human who can hold her own in a TF series without being extrainous or annoying. We need more Marrisa-like characters.

What I can't stand is when humans overshadow the Cybertronians to the point where all the character development goes to the humans and we are left barely even knowing the Cybertronian cast members.

Transformers stands out because the Cybertronians themselves each have their own unique personalities. When that changes and humans or other humanoids/aliens take over we loose what makes Transformers so special and different than Robotech, Gundam or others. It would just be another robot-suit show or if nobody piloted them it'd be more like the Terminator series.

News Credits: 4 · by **craggy** » Fri Aug 27, 2010 1:56 pm

£"$% no!

I can read a comic about a baby from Krypton, raised by Kansas farmers who regularly hangs out with an Amazon sculpted from clay and a billionaire orphan who dresses up like a bat to fight crime, and can relate to all of them in one way or another. I see no difference between these characters and people who happen to have been created as mechanical life-forms on a world of transforming robots.