The Energon Pub

microclone wrote:burns, the notion that a market full of KO devastators would stop a reissue is something that you have asserted, the burden of proof is on you to show that is so, it is not up to people like me who reject your assertion to show otherwise. Only the most indiscriminte buyer would pass on a genuine reissue in sharp new box over a $4 KO, the two products would barely overlap in the market place.

Try looking at it from a business perspective instead of your own personal perspective as a collector.

Why would a company, aimed at making a profit, produce an item and sell it for let's say, $20US and put it on shelves next to a similar product that sells for $4US.

Which do you think people are going to buy? Sure, the collector will pay the extra $16, but what about the average shopper?

All the argument I hear that tell me i'm wrong come from people who look at it from a collector perspective and seem to have this idea that the collector market is huge. If it was huge and so sustainable, why do we not see more reissues? Could it be because TT have to do something extraordinary to turn a profit because they can't rely on the collector market?

aside from asia the only place you really see these things (KO's)is in $ shops and pharmacies

Yeah, and TakaraTomy produce for the Asian market. I doubt they keep track of what gets sold to the western market because they know that's Hasbro's territory.

So while we all sit here talking about KO's flooding the pharmacies and cheap stores, does anyone know how prevalent KO's are in the Asian market?

Anyway, this stuff has been discussed to death numerous times before and it never goes anywhere. So you guys believe what you want, and i'll believe what I want.

As far as this topic goes, like I said before, highly doubtful.

burns.

you are making assertions that you have yet to back up.

1)that takara wont reissue devastator because of the KO's.

its most likely far far simpler, they havent done so because they have no mould.

2) that people will pick a KO over the real deal.

a mum with a 3 year old in taiwan maybe but to be honest its unlikey they would even realise they were looking at the same mould, instead of buying her kid a real devastator she'd just as easily say 'thats too expensive, heres a gashapon capsule toy instead at $4'. or in another scenario she isnt going to pick up a $50-80 reissue, contemplate buying it and then think, oh this one next to it is the same and only $4 i'll get that instead, i think in this case mum is going to be a little more cautious on the $4 toy. (remember a devvy reissue isnt going to be $20, its going to be 3-4x the price.)

KO and a reissue devastator are chalk and cheese, they would hardly ever even occupy the same shelf at the same time. the type of people who are even interested in discriminating between a KO and the real thing are going to be the type of people who want the real thing, mums dont buy $50 toys anyway (well if they can help it)and if they do the competition isnt $4 ko's of the same, it would be other $50 toys eg power rangers, mums dont even know who devastator is!!!

burns, until you can provide some evidence for both your assetions we have to assume that they are valueless. Its not a case of im right/your wrong because personally like me, im sure you would love a real devastator and i know that if I went into a local import store and they had the real deal for $50-60 and a KO for $4 i know which one id buy. if a mum follows me in the store and buys a $4ko its not because shes short changing her kid, its because she wants to spend $4 on a toy and not 10-20x the amount. in terms of product niche, the two dont even come close.

Okay, for starters, there is no 's' at the end of my name, I overlooked it the first time, but your continual use of it is pissing me off.

Secondly, I have explained my way of thinking to you. Yes, I cannot offer figures that support my beliefs, but neither can you.

But as far as i'm concerned, you're not looking at it objectively, you're looking at it as a collector, you're of the belief that collectors will buy a TT reissue over a KO. I don't doubt that for an instant.

What I doubt is the ability of the collector market to generate enough of a profit for TT.

And don't you dare tell me my assertions are "valueless". I think my statements through and explain them in as much detail as I can.

Yeah, I may not have figures to back things up but I do have 11 years of experience in accounting and helping people run their businesses, not to mention a number of years as a collector. I study the market, I watch the profit reports, so in a business respect I know what i'm talking about.

I'm done with this discussion. I've explained myself and I get the impession you're not even making an effort to understand my way of thinking. Maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong, but that doesn't really matter does it? You've screwed up my name on numerous times and labelled what I say "valueless" while not even being able to back up your own argument. So yeah, enjoy your victory, i'm done.

I hope I'm proven wrong, but knowing how popular he is I can't imagine Takara giving away a free Devistator with Omega Supreme.

Hell, I'm sure they know another official set would be $100, and I doubt they'd pass that up, by giving away a Constructicon set with an already sought after figure.

Burn wrote:Okay, for starters, there is no 's' at the end of my name, I overlooked it the first time, but your continual use of it is pissing me off.

Secondly, I have explained my way of thinking to you. Yes, I cannot offer figures that support my beliefs, but neither can you.

But as far as i'm concerned, you're not looking at it objectively, you're looking at it as a collector, you're of the belief that collectors will buy a TT reissue over a KO. I don't doubt that for an instant.

What I doubt is the ability of the collector market to generate enough of a profit for TT.

And don't you dare tell me my assertions are "valueless". I think my statements through and explain them in as much detail as I can.

Yeah, I may not have figures to back things up but I do have 11 years of experience in accounting and helping people run their businesses, not to mention a number of years as a collector. I study the market, I watch the profit reports, so in a business respect I know what i'm talking about.

I'm done with this discussion. I've explained myself and I get the impession you're not even making an effort to understand my way of thinking. Maybe i'm right, maybe i'm wrong, but that doesn't really matter does it? You've screwed up my name on numerous times and labelled what I say "valueless" while not even being able to back up your own argument. So yeah, enjoy your victory, i'm done.

burn.

as i said, its the asserter who bears the burden of proof. If a salesman calls at my house and says 'this toaster is the best in the world' and i say 'show me the proof' then he cannot reasonably look at me and say 'you show me proof its not'. thats not how it works. i dont have to provide any evidence atall, and besides evidence against what, evidence contrary to two non evident assumptions??

I'm being objective in that im not assuming that all reissues are bought by collectors, but as takara possibly makes them for the collector market, theres a reasonable chance that many/most are bought by collectors.

re the profitability of the collector market and reissues, I have no idea whatsover but arent you changing the argument a bit here??

as the saying goes 'what you assert without evidence i can dismiss wthout evidence'. Burn, im notbeing rude here, its just a useful saying and a very fair one generally.

regarding your 11 years of business experience, im not sure how much that bolsters your arguments (an argument from 'authority' doesnt actually add anything im afraid) but im not sure it has much to do with the initial points: do KO's stop takara reissuing devastator (the second one we seem to agree on, re collectors buying real not KO which seems to show that your first assertion is to at least some degree false).

burn, i only say that assertions without evidence are valueless, maybe that came across as unfair, its no disrespect to you as such.

anyway, im being an argumentative ass tonight as you'll no doubt agree, ive provided plenty of evidence for that!! we'll leave it right here.

heres to a devastator reissue!!

microclone.

Burn wrote:Why would a company, aimed at making a profit, produce an item and sell it for let's say, $20US and put it on shelves next to a similar product that sells for $4US.

Because they have a track record of it.

BT Sunstreaker
Encore Soundwave

Both of these were sold AFTER KOs were released.

Movie Bumblebee also sells alongside the KO.

There were also BW KOs sold before the BWR set and minicons before official repaints.


The huge thing you're overlooking is that the Encore series is aimed at collectors.
You say people overestimate the size of the collector base, yet Takara themselves said that it was this "overestimated" adult collector base they were aiming many products at.

If a company shift their emphasis there, you can bet they know it's profitable enough to do so.

Also, you talk about business perspective, then talk about packaging 6 molds you say few would buy to add an incentive to buy Omega Supreme.

If people have to pay an increased price to get Omega because it's packaged with 6 figures they don't want, that's no incentive.

Or are Takara going to spend all that money producing 6 molds to give away in order to boost sales of a figure popular enough it's not going to need boosting?

Lycantendencies wrote:

Burn wrote:Why would a company, aimed at making a profit, produce an item and sell it for let's say, $20US and put it on shelves next to a similar product that sells for $4US.

Because they have a track record of it.

BT Sunstreaker
Encore Soundwave

Both of these were sold AFTER KOs were released.

Movie Bumblebee also sells alongside the KO.

There were also BW KOs sold before the BWR set and minicons before official repaints.


The huge thing you're overlooking is that the Encore series is aimed at collectors.
You say people overestimate the size of the collector base, yet Takara themselves said that it was this "overestimated" adult collector base they were aiming many products at.

If a company shift their emphasis there, you can bet they know it's profitable enough to do so.

Also, you talk about business perspective, then talk about packaging 6 molds you say few would buy to add an incentive to buy Omega Supreme.

If people have to pay an increased price to get Omega because it's packaged with 6 figures they don't want, that's no incentive.

Or are Takara going to spend all that money producing 6 molds to give away in order to boost sales of a figure popular enough it's not going to need boosting?

hha, this thread is getting funny.

how a single unsubstantiated rumor about the constructicons being sold with omega supreme has opened up a real can of worms!!

lycan, a good point re the incentive using so called unwanted figures!!

anyway back to the start, i reckon the rumor is a load of hogwash, id be dissappointed if true though, id like my devastator in a gift set box!

Wow I never knew that something my friend heard that might or might not be true could create this much of frenzy. Heck it like the rumor about metal gear solid 4 being released on xbox 360 there no proof that this will happen but it is yet again a really hot topic among councle owners.

Lycantendencies wrote:

Burn wrote:Why would a company, aimed at making a profit, produce an item and sell it for let's say, $20US and put it on shelves next to a similar product that sells for $4US.

Because they have a track record of it.

BT Sunstreaker
Encore Soundwave

Both of these were sold AFTER KOs were released.

Movie Bumblebee also sells alongside the KO.

There were also BW KOs sold before the BWR set and minicons before official repaints.


The huge thing you're overlooking is that the Encore series is aimed at collectors.
You say people overestimate the size of the collector base, yet Takara themselves said that it was this "overestimated" adult collector base they were aiming many products at.

If a company shift their emphasis there, you can bet they know it's profitable enough to do so.

Also, you talk about business perspective, then talk about packaging 6 molds you say few would buy to add an incentive to buy Omega Supreme.

If people have to pay an increased price to get Omega because it's packaged with 6 figures they don't want, that's no incentive.

Or are Takara going to spend all that money producing 6 molds to give away in order to boost sales of a figure popular enough it's not going to need boosting?

I think you raise some interesting points.

Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

And when was Soundwave sold alongside a KO of himself? I must have missed that one. (Unless I took what Lycan said the wrong way)

Burn wrote:Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

And when was Soundwave sold alongside a KO of himself? I must have missed that one. (Unless I took what Lycan said the wrong way)

Yeah, I didn't follow that either. I'm not sure what was meant by BT Streaker, Soundwave and Movie BB selling alongside KOs. If KOs of these were made, and I have seen none for these 3 figs, they were made after Takara/Hasbro made the original. Unless I missed something.

There was a KO BT Sunstreaker made before the BT version was released.

And there is a KO movie Bumblebee out there plus a couple of other transforming trucks painted movie Prime style and marketted as movie Prime.

Everyone should just hit ebay and pick up old Omega Supremes! I was finally able to complete mine and I brought a new working tank for under 30 bucks

The japanese "toy" market functions under different rules(?) In a sense that in their economic setup, they can sell like a US$ Megazone23 Garland costing about the same price of a PS3 and still make a profit. What company in its right mind would make such items if they weren't saleable? Regular consumers in the American market could buy one unless they've traded their spleen for one.

Same goes for such re-issues, if the marketing model is feasible, they'll make one. Its up to you whether to buy one or not. No one is forcing the decision, ultimately its all boils down to the collector's preference.

Sometimes it kinda gets stale hearing posts like, I won't buy 'cause its ugly or its blocky (for G1 stuff, those characteristics are a GIVEN) or another example when Yamato released their uber priced mechanically beautiful Valkyries, a lot of sour graping IMHO( I didn't buy 'em(not into Valkyries but I know when I see beauty but you wouldn't hear me bellyache about this is this and that is that)....oh for the time when we collected toys for the fun of it and not what some critique or short sighted "expert" thinks.

Wow, that's some rumour

It would be simply amazing if it were true, but they say if something sounds too good to be true it usually isn't.

I'm looking forward to OS whether he has a bonus or not.

Burn wrote:Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

And when was Soundwave sold alongside a KO of himself? I must have missed that one. (Unless I took what Lycan said the wrong way)

Nope, you read right.

After the release of the Takara Soundwave and Soundblaster, 2 or 3 KO's appeared

There was a regular (I think), an oversized that was seen on ebay several times with an oversized Hot Rod as well as in bargain stores, and a larger oversized with built in music player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtimmD9NSjs

After the release of these 2 or 3 KOs, Hasbro released Classics Soundwave and Takara released Encore Soundwave.

Burn wrote:Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

I never said you did.

What you said was that there were many KO Constructicons and that no company who wanted to make a profit would put higher priced versions in competition with cheaper versions, with the reasoning behind that being more would buy the cheap KOs.

The same holds true for the figures as an incentive.

If Takara aren't likely to try to sell higher priced Constructicons as consumers have a cheaper option, they're not going to add them to Omega Supreme and push his price up.

In fact, paying, realistically, $60 extra at least for something they could pick up for $10 just to get at Omega Supreme would be likely to put off people.

reading this thread real disturbed me. it is truly sad to see some peeps pick a fight and outright belittle other peeps, simply because they refuse utterly to aknowladge thier opinion. no one ever has to agree with another persons opinion, but to pick a fight about it is just wrong.

as for topic at hand, i dont beleive it for an instant.
why?
has nothing to do with everyones arguments here, about marketing or collectors or KO

its simply cost.
if takaratomy had intended to incluce devestator with omega, the price would be nearly twice what it is currently set at. and weather or not you agree with what some people have said about marketing here, even the average collector cant regulary drop that big a wad on a single box.

dont like my opinion? fine, but if you try and pick a fight with me about it you will be ignored

Bonger wrote:

Burn wrote:Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

And when was Soundwave sold alongside a KO of himself? I must have missed that one. (Unless I took what Lycan said the wrong way)

Yeah, I didn't follow that either. I'm not sure what was meant by BT Streaker, Soundwave and Movie BB selling alongside KOs. If KOs of these were made, and I have seen none for these 3 figs, they were made after Takara/Hasbro made the original. Unless I missed something.

I dont think wether its before or after is really the point.I saw quite a few ko movie Bumblebee's on the market at the same time as the offical realease and the same can be said about some ko's of the Alternator/Binatech line.

I never saw a G1 Soundwave in recent years but I dont discount the possibility.

Lycantendencies wrote:

Burn wrote:Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

And when was Soundwave sold alongside a KO of himself? I must have missed that one. (Unless I took what Lycan said the wrong way)

Nope, you read right.

After the release of the Takara Soundwave and Soundblaster, 2 or 3 KO's appeared

There was a regular (I think), an oversized that was seen on ebay several times with an oversized Hot Rod as well as in bargain stores, and a larger oversized with built in music player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtimmD9NSjs

After the release of these 2 or 3 KOs, Hasbro released Classics Soundwave and Takara released Encore Soundwave.

heh, never seen or even heard of them. There mustn't have been many produced. Would be nifty to pick up for kitbashing.

Burn wrote:

Lycantendencies wrote:

Burn wrote:Shame some of those points are misinterpretations of what I said (I never once said people didn't want the Constructicons) but like I said, i'm done "discussing" this.

And when was Soundwave sold alongside a KO of himself? I must have missed that one. (Unless I took what Lycan said the wrong way)

Nope, you read right.

After the release of the Takara Soundwave and Soundblaster, 2 or 3 KO's appeared

There was a regular (I think), an oversized that was seen on ebay several times with an oversized Hot Rod as well as in bargain stores, and a larger oversized with built in music player.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtimmD9NSjs

After the release of these 2 or 3 KOs, Hasbro released Classics Soundwave and Takara released Encore Soundwave.

heh, never seen or even heard of them. There mustn't have been many produced. Would be nifty to pick up for kitbashing.

I had the same idea.