darkqueen01 wrote::BOT:"Yes and no. If there are no distinct genders then, yes, in transformers lore there are no females but then that also means that there are no males in Transformers culture. Due to this lack of distinction then that means that individual transformers can look and act in distinctive manners without being labeled as a male or female because this concept does not exist in transformers culture.
darkqueen01 wrote:Or there is another concept, that which Tazirai came up with.
In his posts he came up with the idea that Transformers could change their voice (and possibly mannerisms?) in order to better communicate with the new species, humans, that they are now living with. So the transformer Arcee comes to the conclusion that since "female humans" seem to communicate better then their "male human" counter parts then, as a communications officer, she would reflect that notion when coming to live and interact on Earth. At least, that is what I got out of it. Man, I can hear the fan boys cry foul on that one.
Dark Zarak wrote:darkqueen01 wrote::BOT:"Yes and no. If there are no distinct genders then, yes, in transformers lore there are no females but then that also means that there are no males in Transformers culture. Due to this lack of distinction then that means that individual transformers can look and act in distinctive manners without being labeled as a male or female because this concept does not exist in transformers culture.
Yes, except that every "male" TF is referred to as He, and it is accepted and not only considered normal, but expected. Prime, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, they're all guys. They act like guys without even trying. They downloaded guy personalities from the world wide web. They actually are dudes.
darkqueen01 wrote:Dark Zarak wrote:darkqueen01 wrote::BOT:"Yes and no. If there are no distinct genders then, yes, in transformers lore there are no females but then that also means that there are no males in Transformers culture. Due to this lack of distinction then that means that individual transformers can look and act in distinctive manners without being labeled as a male or female because this concept does not exist in transformers culture.
Yes, except that every "male" TF is referred to as He, and it is accepted and not only considered normal, but expected. Prime, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, they're all guys. They act like guys without even trying. They downloaded guy personalities from the world wide web. They actually are dudes.
Actually, I would argue this point. You identify them as males because you are still trying to compare them to humans, which in this case doesn't work because we have two separate concepts: a species with two genders vs. a species with no distinct gender.
I get that this is a hard idea to grasp so allow me to try and break it down a bit. Let me stress that these are just my random ideas and not necessary any sort of truth about transformers lore.
A-hem.
In our world, gender is reflected in EVERYTHING because [almost] all biological species on this planet have two genders: humans, animals, even plants. These distinctions are reflected in our culture and, most importantly, in our language.
For us, since there is a BIG NEED to differentiate between males and females we try to identify everything as being male and female. In english: he/she, him/her. This is also seen in other languages, such as spanish: chico/chica, nino/nina.
We even do this with people that have both male and female reproductive organs. In once sense they are a genderless being at birth, at which point you would call on a DNA test to prove genetically if that baby is male or female. Then again you get men who think they are women and vice versa. (That quite frankly is an issue I wish to avoid at this point. This is complicated enough.) In any even you have people that are choosing to be either male or female because that is how our culture operates. You must be one or the other in some shape or form.
With transformers there is no such thing because you need one group to counter another group. With Transformers, if you accept this idea, there is one group, which is a genderless group. As humans we have no concept of this and nothing to go by. Instead we try to make comparisons so that we can understand a concept that we don't understand. (Example: The eye is like the lens of a camera)
With transformers, since our language reflects that we have no concept of a one gender/lack of gender species, we then attempt to make comparisons. We want to label these characters as male characters because we are comparing them to our own culture. Basically, what most people do is think: This transformer has a deep voice and is very strong, he must be a guy.
However, with transformers, if you buy the one gender idea, they do not distinguish themselves into two gender because they don't have two genders. Hell, there isn't even one gender! To them, they are all just cybertronians. More to the point, there is NO WORD for it in their language because,again, in their culture they would have no concept of this idea. Since they would not differentiate themselves as being male or female then their language would also represent this.
In other words, in the cybertronian language they would not say "He said this," or "She did that." They might just use their names: "Arcee said this" or "Bonecrusher did that". Or maybe they would replace he and she with what we would consider to be gender neutral terms. It would be like how we humans called a group of guys and girls just "guys" because, with most human languages, we tend to make everything masculine because that goes back into history where women were seen as inferior to men, etc, etc.
All I am trying to say is that there can be no A group if a B group isn't present. They would all just be C, because there is no way to distinguish them.
That's all I got. I HAVE to get to bed now. I look forward to more posts or even flammers, tho I will probably just talk them down to nothingness, as is my way of things.
And besides, IT'S JUST A CARTOON!! *L*
NewFoundStarscreamLuv wrote:me and my friends combine all the time. Sometimes I even combine by myself if no one is around.
darkqueen01 wrote:Dark Zarak wrote:darkqueen01 wrote::BOT:"Yes and no. If there are no distinct genders then, yes, in transformers lore there are no females but then that also means that there are no males in Transformers culture. Due to this lack of distinction then that means that individual transformers can look and act in distinctive manners without being labeled as a male or female because this concept does not exist in transformers culture.
Yes, except that every "male" TF is referred to as He, and it is accepted and not only considered normal, but expected. Prime, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, they're all guys. They act like guys without even trying. They downloaded guy personalities from the world wide web. They actually are dudes.
Actually, I would argue this point. You identify them as males because you are still trying to compare them to humans, which in this case doesn't work because we have two separate concepts: a species with two genders vs. a species with no distinct gender.
I get that this is a hard idea to grasp so allow me to try and break it down a bit. Let me stress that these are just my random ideas and not necessary any sort of truth about transformers lore.
A-hem.
In our world, gender is reflected in EVERYTHING because [almost] all biological species on this planet have two genders: humans, animals, even plants. These distinctions are reflected in our culture and, most importantly, in our language.
For us, since there is a BIG NEED to differentiate between males and females we try to identify everything as being male and female. In english: he/she, him/her. This is also seen in other languages, such as spanish: chico/chica, nino/nina.
We even do this with people that have both male and female reproductive organs. In once sense they are a genderless being at birth, at which point you would call on a DNA test to prove genetically if that baby is male or female. Then again you get men who think they are women and vice versa. (That quite frankly is an issue I wish to avoid at this point. This is complicated enough.) In any even you have people that are choosing to be either male or female because that is how our culture operates. You must be one or the other in some shape or form.
With transformers there is no such thing because you need one group to counter another group. With Transformers, if you accept this idea, there is one group, which is a genderless group. As humans we have no concept of this and nothing to go by. Instead we try to make comparisons so that we can understand a concept that we don't understand. (Example: The eye is like the lens of a camera)
With transformers, since our language reflects that we have no concept of a one gender/lack of gender species, we then attempt to make comparisons. We want to label these characters as male characters because we are comparing them to our own culture. Basically, what most people do is think: This transformer has a deep voice and is very strong, he must be a guy.
However, with transformers, if you buy the one gender idea, they do not distinguish themselves into two gender because they don't have two genders. Hell, there isn't even one gender! To them, they are all just cybertronians. More to the point, there is NO WORD for it in their language because,again, in their culture they would have no concept of this idea. Since they would not differentiate themselves as being male or female then their language would also represent this.
In other words, in the cybertronian language they would not say "He said this," or "She did that." They might just use their names: "Arcee said this" or "Bonecrusher did that". Or maybe they would replace he and she with what we would consider to be gender neutral terms. It would be like how we humans called a group of guys and girls just "guys" because, with most human languages, we tend to make everything masculine because that goes back into history where women were seen as inferior to men, etc, etc.
All I am trying to say is that there can be no A group if a B group isn't present. They would all just be C, because there is no way to distinguish them.
That's all I got. I HAVE to get to bed now. I look forward to more posts or even flammers, tho I will probably just talk them down to nothingness, as is my way of things.
And besides, IT'S JUST A CARTOON!! *L*
darkqueen01 wrote:Ummmm....ummmm...... I'm sorry please forgive me?
Dark Zarak wrote:darkqueen01 wrote::BOT:"Yes and no. If there are no distinct genders then, yes, in transformers lore there are no females but then that also means that there are no males in Transformers culture. Due to this lack of distinction then that means that individual transformers can look and act in distinctive manners without being labeled as a male or female because this concept does not exist in transformers culture.
Yes, except that every "male" TF is referred to as He, and it is accepted and not only considered normal, but expected. Prime, Megatron, Bumblebee, Starscream, they're all guys. They act like guys without even trying. They downloaded guy personalities from the world wide web. They actually are dudes.
Dark Zarak wrote:The reason she should NOT be in the movie is because she is a token character. She has no personality, and she's quite frankly lame.
Ultra Magnus, Prowl, Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, Jetfire, freaking Metroplex as a damn aircraft carrier, Grimlock as whatever, Wheeljack, these are all far better characters. I don't care if Arcee is the first hermaphrodite TF, she's stupid.
No Arcee for TF2.
darkqueen01 wrote:
Tazirai, I really do like the story concepts that you are coming up with. I think it shows that "female" type transformers could be possible. It also shows that what is going on in the Transformers universe is a uniquely and completely different concept than what has previously been seen in other realms of science fiction and fantasy.
I think the major problem going on here is that people can't decide how, or if, they/we want Transformers to be able to develop the kind of attachments that are so prevalent in biological humanoid species. As humans in real life we naturally develop feelings of attachment in order to find mates. It's not a coincidence that predominantly all science fiction/fantasy species are humanoid beings with similar human characteristics.
People write with what they know and it makes sense that biological species similar to humans would find ways to create some form of attachment to find mates. Granted, with these fictionalized alien species different cultures are created so the way these aliens species form relationships may be vastly different, but the idea is the same: in the end, they form an attachment.
publicvisage wrote:darkqueen01 wrote:Ummmm....ummmm...... I'm sorry please forgive me?
You're good. lol. And you said it a lot more eloquently than I could have(with shiny colored fonts, too!)
But I seriously had this exact same discussion with someone a few days ago.
Skowl wrote:Who says she has to be a token character? You're ignoring the fact that movie Arcee's personality is *potential*, it's like you're critising her for being a token TF when the movie isn't even made yet. Look at that Arcee spotlight coming out, alot of the feedback has been great - people are glad to finally see an Arcee that can kick ass, why can't the movie version be based on her, and not the G1 version? This is just another example of fans who use the G1 cartoon as precedence for everything, but never look elsewhere for different interpretations of a character.
Why does everyone disregard her right off the bat because "zomg she was lame 20 years ago"? So? Bumblebee was lame 20 years ago too, and the movie made him cool.
New universe people. New universe.
Dark Zarak wrote:But none of that makes her cooler than Magnus, Grimlock, Jetfire, Metroplex, Prowl, Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, or Wheeljack.
Dark Zarak wrote:Skowl wrote:Who says she has to be a token character? You're ignoring the fact that movie Arcee's personality is *potential*, it's like you're critising her for being a token TF when the movie isn't even made yet. Look at that Arcee spotlight coming out, alot of the feedback has been great - people are glad to finally see an Arcee that can kick ass, why can't the movie version be based on her, and not the G1 version? This is just another example of fans who use the G1 cartoon as precedence for everything, but never look elsewhere for different interpretations of a character.
Why does everyone disregard her right off the bat because "zomg she was lame 20 years ago"? So? Bumblebee was lame 20 years ago too, and the movie made him cool.
New universe people. New universe.
But none of that makes her cooler than Magnus, Grimlock, Jetfire, Metroplex, Prowl, Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, or Wheeljack.
Meanwhile, the characters I listed, even while being made tokens of themselves, are way better than a pink motorcycle.
Skowl wrote:Dark Zarak wrote:Skowl wrote:Who says she has to be a token character? You're ignoring the fact that movie Arcee's personality is *potential*, it's like you're critising her for being a token TF when the movie isn't even made yet. Look at that Arcee spotlight coming out, alot of the feedback has been great - people are glad to finally see an Arcee that can kick ass, why can't the movie version be based on her, and not the G1 version? This is just another example of fans who use the G1 cartoon as precedence for everything, but never look elsewhere for different interpretations of a character.
Why does everyone disregard her right off the bat because "zomg she was lame 20 years ago"? So? Bumblebee was lame 20 years ago too, and the movie made him cool.
New universe people. New universe.
But none of that makes her cooler than Magnus, Grimlock, Jetfire, Metroplex, Prowl, Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, or Wheeljack.
Meanwhile, the characters I listed, even while being made tokens of themselves, are way better than a pink motorcycle.
Maybe for you. But those characters you listed strike me as some of the most boring, bland characters G1 had to offer. Sideswipe and Sunstreaker, what was ever interesting about them? They're just carbon-copies of most of the other autobot cars who are way more token than Arcee was. In fact, Sideswipe and Sunstreaker were probably the first example of shameless repaints in order to sell more toys. Ultra Magnus has been done to death and I'm so sick of seeing him everywhere I look. We've already had a cop car with Barricade, so Prowl is not necessary. Metroplex is so huge and enormous that I don't think you could imagine a scenario where you would have to pick between either Metroplex or Arcee (they are so different you could easily have both). Same argument goes for Jetfire.
People will say "you can't have Arcee because she takes a spot in the movie away from better characters like Metroplex or Jetfire" - but can Arcee really replace characters like those? You can't imagine an aerial dogfight with Starscream and Jetfire, and then replace Jetfire with Arcee. These are two different characters who are needed for two completely different scenarios.
As for the others (and this drives me nuts with fans) most have been done to death. Overused and stale after being included in every toy series, every comic book, every statuette and bust. Everything. I get the feeling that sometimes if you would let fans decide the future of the franchise, it would just be Ultra Magnus, Hot Rod and Constructicons toys for the next 15 years.
Yeah, let's leave Arcee out to make room for better characters... like the ones who have been re-used and recycled so much that they've become worn out and stale.
Mattamus Prime wrote: Do you know anyone who had the toy growing up.. I never saw her.
Skowl wrote:Mattamus Prime wrote:
It's hard to play with a toy that doesn't exist... unless you have a vivid imagination...
Dark Zarak wrote:
But I still don't want Arcee to be in the movie.
The reason is because they will probably have a limited number of new characters. And she will take away from better characters.
People get all caught up in the idea that Arcee is a girl and therefore should or shouldn't be in the movie, as if that was the reason.
The reason she should NOT be in the movie is because she is a token character. She has no personality, and she's quite frankly lame.
No Arcee for TF2.
EnergonCube wrote:Dark Zarak wrote:
But I still don't want Arcee to be in the movie.
The reason is because they will probably have a limited number of new characters. And she will take away from better characters.
People get all caught up in the idea that Arcee is a girl and therefore should or shouldn't be in the movie, as if that was the reason.
The reason she should NOT be in the movie is because she is a token character. She has no personality, and she's quite frankly lame.
No Arcee for TF2.
I have been following thie thread for a while. The emotions that the humans have in this thread are very real. I am glad that transformers have alien emotions and are not bound by these problems.
When I was watching the Movie DVD that had CG pictures of the robots, they showed a pink one. Just seeing it got my hackles up (ok, so I am not anthropormorphic). It was pink and wussie! I am so glad they did not put it in the movie.
Here is my emotional response that I have consigned on to paper to convey my thoughts.
The story begins by a decepticon arriving to Earth after Starscream has left. It chooses one of my old trucks as its form. It is female and without any visible gender differences (or GM badging).
I am not an artist, but here is a sketch of its transformed mode. There is supposed to be a decepticon symbol on the hood scoop.
This decepticon has heard that a pink female autobot has recently arrived on Earth. First it is in vehicle mode and tries to take out the pink motorcycle with its "tailgater eliminator" (an M-16, not shown). Then it transforms and blasts it in half.
The sole purpose of this decepticon is to surface and then to disappear. It's motto is in line with the decepticon way of thinking. "There can be only one" (female robot on Earth).
(This motto is not related to the series Highlander)
Jazz had a bigger chest on the movie than any I would want to see on a transformer. I like to hear the male voices and listen to the banter between friends and foes, which by the way was mostly missing from the movie.
Gender shouldn't matter unless someone makes a point of making it matter.
No Arcee pleeeeze.
Arcee_Firebolt wrote:
PS - Btw, Tazirai, I loved the freestyle scriptwrite you did. Great idea!
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