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technically going by the oneshot, soundwave does appear before runabout and runamuck

Loki120 wrote:I long since lost interest in the new IDW series. When Runamuck and Runabout show up before soundwave and the tapes, it's time to check out.

Why is that bad?

I agree. I've pretty much checked out of any story telling. It really is our demise that there are so many continuities. All we do is argue over what is correct and it's all based on opinion, nothing factual because all the facts are constantly thrown out the window.

And, you know, it has been there since day one. We were all just too young to realize it. When you take a step back and look at it now, you realize it's all just a big mess. This new movie isn't helping things either with another all new story.

That's why the Furman stuff bothers me so much now. It didn't jive with anything that existed. He made up so much junk and we now find ourselves with all these sub-factions, religions, etc. None of which can be supported by the roots of TF's.

You know, kudos for McDonough and Patyk for trying to bring it all together. Yes, their writing wasn't fantastic, but they tried. Given people's criticisms of DW, it wasn't appreciated.

So, where does that leave us? Constantly in argument over the color of Rumble, over Jetfire versus Skyfire, over gender, Grimlock's intelligence, over water on Cybertron, over mass displacement, even over the origin of TF's, etc, etc, etc.

The worst part is that it all could have been avoided. The guidelines were there. It was clear, but they messed up.

So, no surprise. The result is a fandom that does almost nothing but fight (sometimes bitterly). We are so divided and rarely come together with a united voice. How many fans do you think have left the community because of the hatred? I've seen plenty of comments wondering how we retain anyone.

Another thought: A huge contributing factor is that TF fans allow themselves to be pushed around. Hasbro and Takara produce a multitude of repaints and we buy 'em all. The stories are created haphazardly and don't jive, but we buy them too. The movie producers tell us "this is how it's gonna be" and, of course, so many are gonna go see it. We don't stand up for ourselves. We don't stand up for quality. We don't make them earn our money. It's a shame really.

Grimshock wrote:That's why the Furman stuff bothers me so much now. It didn't jive with anything that existed. He made up so much junk and we now find ourselves with all these sub-factions, religions, etc. None of which can be supported by the roots of TF's.

But that's what good writing is about: development. If Furman (or anyone) told a story using strictly the root of Tf's, i.e. the toys, we'd have boring stories. We'd have archetypical characters based on thumbnail descriptions in tech specs. We'd have a story about two sides fighting without any real indication of their motivation.

Hasbro and Takara may have given us The Transformers, but writers like Furman gave us, as far as I'm concerned, Cybertron and the socio-political world in which they lived. That, to me, is a good thing. Without that, we'd have flat interactions, no character embellishment, no interest.

Introducing religion may not be everyone's cup of tea. It probably isn't the route I would have gone down, personally, but it's easy to see why it was included. It adds a certain depth to the lives of the Cybertronians and is not a far cry from the root of TF's, either. If the Autobots fight, they must be fighting for a reason. They must have something they believe in. If they believe in that something (whatever that something may be), then they could believe in gods. After all, there's no dogma or bible at the root of TFs that says "there are no gods, these people don't believe in them".

There are other routes TF fiction could have gone down, granted. I'm not even saying Furman's choice was the best, but it's unfair to criticise him for not sticking to the roots of TF's when if he had done, nobody would really be interested in reading the fiction.

Grimshock wrote:I agree. I've pretty much checked out of any story telling. It really is our demise that there are so many continuities. All we do is argue over what is correct and it's all based on opinion, nothing factual because all the facts are constantly thrown out the window.

And, you know, it has been there since day one. We were all just too young to realize it. When you take a step back and look at it now, you realize it's all just a big mess. This new movie isn't helping things either with another all new story.

That's why the Furman stuff bothers me so much now. It didn't jive with anything that existed. He made up so much junk and we now find ourselves with all these sub-factions, religions, etc. None of which can be supported by the roots of TF's.

You know, kudos for McDonough and Patyk for trying to bring it all together. Yes, their writing wasn't fantastic, but they tried. Given people's criticisms of DW, it wasn't appreciated.

So, where does that leave us? Constantly in argument over the color of Rumble, over Jetfire versus Skyfire, over gender, Grimlock's intelligence, over water on Cybertron, over mass displacement, even over the origin of TF's, etc, etc, etc.

The worst part is that it all could have been avoided. The guidelines were there. It was clear, but they messed up.

So, no surprise. The result is a fandom that does almost nothing but fight (sometimes bitterly). We are so divided and rarely come together with a united voice. How many fans do you think have left the community because of the hatred? I've seen plenty of comments wondering how we retain anyone.

QFT!!!!

Constantly in argument over the color of Rumble

Rumble's red according to the toys, comics, Japanese show, the US show writing notes, etc.

And we know this by now, which makes arguing about it futile.

He made up so much [...] The guidelines were there.

Yeah. Hasbro approached Marvel for a backstory for their new toyline, and between Furman and Budiansky most of the Transformers in the West were created (both wrote heavily for the profiles and tech specs.) That's what writers do. The cartoon failed to justify expenditure, whereas the comic continued to pay for itself until years later, and when Hasbro decided they wanted to monetise old moulds and release Classic Heroes (trialling the line in Europe, as was common and also happened with G2) it was also Furman's job to come up with the tie-in fiction there, as it was to introduce and characterise each year's product in line with British release dates. Then Budiansky (again, the guy who came up with most of the characters in the franchise) handed the reigns over to Furman over lunch.

On the other hand, there's a teevee show with a big mix of writers who pitched a script at a time and which involved very little ongoing continuity.

It really is our demise that there are so many continuities. All we do is argue

It's one of the main strengths of Transformers that there's something for everyone. Beast Wars is widely acknowledged to be better written than the original one, but it doesn't get much discussion, fan fiction or art -- it's a closed series, and there isn't much to discuss, so people just watch it and move on.

With the old stuff there's a ton of plot holes and different continuities, so people talk about them. That's kept people around.

so has it been ruled out permanantly that Unicron will not appear in IDW comics? What is the reason

Probably because the concept's been written to death, between Marvel, Dreamwave, Armada, Energon, etc. Any continuity with a Unicron becomes just another lead up to a Unicron battle; it's a creative pit, and draws attention away from the Transformers themselves by making them pawns.

What Denyer said

Denyer wrote: Rumble's red according to the toys, comics, Japanese show, the US show writing notes, etc.

And we know this by now, which makes arguing about it futile.

And yet, in the G1 show he's blue, arguement ensue. The fact is some of us will always think of Rumble as blue.

bookofjunon wrote:

Denyer wrote: Rumble's red according to the toys, comics, Japanese show, the US show writing notes, etc.

And we know this by now, which makes arguing about it futile.

And yet, in the G1 show he's blue, arguement ensue. The fact is some of us will always think of Rumble as blue.

Well, that's their problem then, I personally couldn't care less about those discussions.

Stormwolf wrote:

bookofjunon wrote:

Denyer wrote: Rumble's red according to the toys, comics, Japanese show, the US show writing notes, etc.

And we know this by now, which makes arguing about it futile.

And yet, in the G1 show he's blue, arguement ensue. The fact is some of us will always think of Rumble as blue.

Well, that's their problem then, I personally couldn't care less about those discussions.

But some do, hense the reason the debate. We are a divided fandom and we have the fact no one will stick to any one canon to blame.

I remember when Dreamwave started with Transformers Hasbro said "This will be the official continuity from now on." Well we all know how well that turned out.

bookofjunon wrote:But some do, hense the reason the debate. We are a divided fandom and we have the fact no one will stick to any one canon to blame.

There's only a small group that does the actual whining, most people don't mind new continuities. Especially the Comic, Beast Wars and post-RID crowd are open to new stuff.

The biggest complainers are often the diehard G1 cartoon fans (read geewunners).

bookofjunon wrote:I remember when Dreamwave started with Transformers Hasbro said "This will be the official continuity from now on." Well we all know how well that turned out.

Hasbro couldn't care less about continuity, what they really care about is profit. And Dreamwave was hardly original, they didn't really add anything new to G1.

Quite sad actually, we could have had a really cool neo G1 that was written like "The Dark Knight Returns". But instead we got a fanfic like story that was based 90% around the G1 cartoon. Although War Within was pretty great.

A clean start like IDW's current continuity would have done wonders here.

Stormwolf wrote:

Loki120 wrote:I long since lost interest in the new IDW series. When Runamuck and Runabout show up before soundwave and the tapes, it's time to check out.

Why is that bad?

Because it's Runa-shmuck and Runabout, arguably two of the worse TF toys to ever be saddled on the community. Why they preferred to start of with these instead of the Soundwave or the tapes is a mystery I really didn't care to resolve. And no, I don't care about retroactive continuity...so no Soundwave didn't show up before Runamuck and Runabout. By the time the spotlights came about I long since ceased caring.

Loki120 wrote:

Stormwolf wrote:

Loki120 wrote:I long since lost interest in the new IDW series. When Runamuck and Runabout show up before soundwave and the tapes, it's time to check out.

Why is that bad?

Because it's Runa-shmuck and Runabout, arguably two of the worse TF toys to ever be saddled on the community. Why they preferred to start of with these instead of the Soundwave or the tapes is a mystery I really didn't care to resolve. And no, I don't care about retroactive continuity...so no Soundwave didn't show up before Runamuck and Runabout. By the time the spotlights came about I long since ceased caring.

So you, don't like IDW because it has two characters that had crappy toys 20 years ago. Eventhought they never resembled their toys in any media they ever appeared in.

That makes no sense at all, never mind I asked.

bookofjunon wrote:And yet, in the G1 show he's blue

Why is this a problem, whether it was a mistake or for whatever other reason? The only problem comes from those who argue for a "one true answer" rather than simply stating the facts and moving on.

Most of us are at least twenty by now, assuming we were around to catch any of the original material first-hand.

Loki120 wrote:Because it's Runa-shmuck and Runabout, arguably two of the worse TF toys to ever be saddled on the community.

So what? Pages don't transform -- the original Megatron toy is a fragile, spindly piece of crap that looks nothing like most of his cartoon or comic appearances, but that's never held the character back.

Leonardo wrote:Hasbro and Takara may have given us The Transformers, but writers like Furman gave us, as far as I'm concerned, Cybertron and the socio-political world in which they lived. That, to me, is a good thing. Without that, we'd have flat interactions, no character embellishment, no interest.

QFT.

Denyer wrote:(Everything he said a few posts back.)

QFT.

Loki120 wrote:

Stormwolf wrote:Why is [featuring Runamuck and Runabout] bad?

Because it's Runa-shmuck and Runabout, arguably two of the worse TF toys to ever be saddled on the community.

Ah. There's the basic problem, you see? The Battlechargers, as toys, sucked donkey balls. But this isn't the toys - this is the comic, where the emphasis is on interesting characters and stories, not cool toys.

Personally, I think it's a great thing that IDW's G1 retelling has the confidence to start with two very minor characters like the Battlechargers rather than immediately leading with the big guns - Prime, Megs, Soundwave and so on. And I also think it's a great thing that these near-unknown characters get used at all, which is of course another piece of the Furman MO - take an under-utilised, practically unknown character and turn it into something people can care about. The TF universe would be a lot smaller and a lot less interesting, IMO, without that particular Furman trait.

Keep in mind that there aren't really that many people reading comics compared to the number enjoying the other facets of TF's. If you check out the posts, there are really only a handful of guys who regularly post on any news related to comics. On the other hand, tons of people post on the other topics. To me, that really means that those of you who have the argument that Furman has created a wonderful universe that moves the TF's in a progressive direction doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, more of the fandom would actually care. Personally, I think more would if the stories were better. But, most of us have moved on because so much of conflicts and is really rather silly.

I also disagree that there can't be development without sticking to some guidelines. There is SOOOO much material to work with. SOOOO many characters that could be explored. Our writers have not even come close to scratching the potential. Even worse, they have only created debates because people care. I think it's terrible that people suggest that we simply disregard certain portions of the writing. But I do see why they would. It really is the only way one could enjoy the stories. What a shame.

Also agree that better decisions could have been made than to introduce Runabout and Runamuck that early. Similar to a comment I made regarding Sideswipe's appearance. It's a sad day for TF fans if we get that excited about finally seeing Sideswipe. A shame that such a fan favorite from series 1 took so long to appear. Our writers need to learn a little about their customers.

Maybe then people would actually care a little more about the comics.

Actually, it's my general impression that the comics, particularly the more recent ones, are mostly undiscovered by the fandom at large rather than disregarded / tried-once-and-rejected. I'm open to correction on that point...

However, I would reiterate and embellish one of Denyer's points above: it does seem to be generally the 'cartoon purists' (by which I mean the subset of fans, primarily American, who grew up with the G1 cartoon and have little to no interest in other media) and/or 'toy purists' (who are only really interested in TF as a toyline, although they tend to care less about the characters / stories outside of the tech spec bios because of that) who do most of the arguing about differences between continuities. As a crass generalisation, they tend to insist that one way is 'right' and other ways are 'wrong' (as a random aside, the FIRRIB/FIBRIR argument only tends to crop up these days when cartoon purists clash with any other type of fan, since only the cartoon has FIRRIB...). By contrast, comic fans and those who joined TF around the Beast era tend to be more accepting of multiple self-contained continuities existing in the canon media (i.e. there is no FIRRIB/FIBRIR argument; it's simply FIRRIB if you're talking about the cartoon continuity, and FIBRIR otherwise). Not right, not wrong, just different; and perhaps a given fan may esteem one continuity or series as superior to the others, but it's still not generally taken as being 'the true / right continuity'.

But I digress...

For what it's worth, I don't think the contribution of Furman and others like him should be judged on the criterion of how many people read the comics. 'Popular' isn't the same thing as 'good', because popularity depends on exposure as well as quality. It's very often the case that a smaller, less well-known spin-off of a mainstream series is judged to be artistically superior to its more widely-known parent.

To take the specific example of the Sunbow cartoon vs the Marvel comic, and particularly the UK comic: based on the same premises and 'guidelines' as the cartoon, Marvel UK gave TF almost a decade of continuous development, building an ongoing and largely consistent history and introducing and fleshing out many minor characters who had only a one-time appearance or even made no appearance at all in the cartoon. The cartoon, by contrast, gave three-and-a-bit seasons of episodic, largely inconsistent writing in which even the regular characters got very little development (screen time, yes, but not development). Remember that both media were based on the same character profiles and story elements, drawn up by Marvel at Hasbro's request.

One final point: if stories (in any medium) skipped the build-up and just jumped straight to the reveal on the basis that it's what the fans are paying to see, they'd very quickly become boring. Why should characters be instantly prominent in a series just because they're fan favourites? Every series would be the same. Instead, a writer, movie director or showgirl will keep their audience tantalised with hints about what's coming up in order to keep their attention and make the eventual reveal more exciting. It's all about the anticip...
















...ation.

Glyph wrote:Personally, I think it's a great thing that IDW's G1 retelling has the confidence to start with two very minor characters like the Battlechargers rather than immediately leading with the big guns - Prime, Megs, Soundwave and so on. And I also think it's a great thing that these near-unknown characters get used at all, which is of course another piece of the Furman MO - take an under-utilised, practically unknown character and turn it into something people can care about. The TF universe would be a lot smaller and a lot less interesting, IMO, without that particular Furman trait.

Or...they could start with the big guns and actually make them interesting. Who here really wants to know anything more about Runabout and Runamuck...and be honest. Just about as many who want to make Wheelie more interesting.

Sorry, just lost interest in IDW a while back, and considering how the franchise works, I expect it gone and a whole new continuity to start with the next year or so.

Grimshock wrote:Keep in mind that there aren't really that many people reading comics compared to the number enjoying the other facets of TF's. If you check out the posts, there are really only a handful of guys who regularly post on any news related to comics. On the other hand, tons of people post on the other topics. To me, that really means that those of you who have the argument that Furman has created a wonderful universe that moves the TF's in a progressive direction doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, more of the fandom would actually care. Personally, I think more would if the stories were better. But, most of us have moved on because so much of conflicts and is really rather silly.

Well. it won't bother you if you don't read comics, so what's the problem?

Grimshock wrote:I also disagree that there can't be development without sticking to some guidelines. There is SOOOO much material to work with. SOOOO many characters that could be explored. Our writers have not even come close to scratching the potential. Even worse, they have only created debates because people care. I think it's terrible that people suggest that we simply disregard certain portions of the writing. But I do see why they would. It really is the only way one could enjoy the stories. What a shame.

And what would you do?

Grimshock wrote:Also agree that better decisions could have been made than to introduce Runabout and Runamuck that early. Similar to a comment I made regarding Sideswipe's appearance. It's a sad day for TF fans if we get that excited about finally seeing Sideswipe. A shame that such a fan favorite from series 1 took so long to appear. Our writers need to learn a little about their customers.

What's so epic about Sideswipe? He's only had 5 lines in the cartoon and a really cool death in the G2 comics.

A argument against Runabout and Runamuck seems pretty selfcontradicting here.

Grimshock wrote:Maybe then people would actually care a little more about the comics.

There's plenty of people who enjoy the comics. The comics sell, but not many people actually post about them.

Loki120 wrote:Sorry, just lost interest in IDW a while back, and considering how the franchise works, I expect it gone and a whole new continuity to start with the next year or so.

Then why do you keep posting about them then if it doesn't interest you anymore?

Loki120 wrote:Or...they could start with the big guns and actually make them interesting. Who here really wants to know anything more about Runabout and Runamuck...and be honest. Just about as many who want to make Wheelie more interesting.

*shrug*
Different strokes for different folks. I'd like to know more about the Battlechargers because they're practically blank slates, and Furman has a history of turning blank slates into fan-favourite characters (Nightbeat, Bludgeon, Thunderwing, Shockwave to an extent). I find Megatron more interesting because I know very little about him yet except that he's a complete badass; Optimus is more interesting because of the hints (hooks) that he's a little tougher, a little more 'big-picture' than we've seen him to be in the past. Neither of these biggest guns have had much character exposition in the new continuity as yet, but I'm itching to know more because little hints have been revealed. If I already knew everything about them, there'd be nothing to read the comics for.

Loki120 wrote:Sorry, just lost interest in IDW a while back, and considering how the franchise works, I expect it gone and a whole new continuity to start with the next year or so.

That's how the cartoon and toyline side of the franchise works, not the comics. IDW and Furman have already said that they're building the so-called 'Furmanverse' as an ongoing continuity into which all their G1 stuff will fit; this is coming from a guy who sustained a single G1 continuity for nigh-on 15 years of comics and text stories before moving into Beast Wars, long after the G1 cartoon and toyline were cancelled.

Grimshock wrote:Otherwise, more of the fandom would actually care.

Most of the fandom is toy collectors, or people who remember a few episodes of the show and therefore have those arguments about Rumble/Frenzy you mentioned.

See much discussion of Dreamwave now that's not being published? Or of Beast Wars? Nah. It's sunk with very little trace. You've got the people coming back with vague memories of old shows or comics, and a small core of people who actually read anything, whether it's fanfic or official comics.

Remember the Dreamwave message boards? Considering that URL was printed on the back of every comic and the sales figures, you'd have expected a lot more people to have been talking there.

Many of the best TF stories I've read will never be seen by more than a few hundred people, because they don't read fan fiction. Good doesn't equal a big audience. The "build a better mousetrap and the world will beat a path to your door" idea isn't borne out.

Grimshock wrote:I also disagree that there can't be development without sticking to some guidelines. There is SOOOO much material to work with. SOOOO many characters that could be explored.

Yeah. Furman wrote a lot of it.

Grimshock wrote:Also agree that better decisions could have been made than to introduce Runabout and Runamuck that early.

If all a company wanted to do was retell a bunch of 80s stuff in the order it happened before, with the toys turning up for their five minutes of fame in release order, they could reprint/reissue those old stories.

Grimshock wrote:Our writers need to learn a little about their customers.

As with any other writing, and as Glyph's discussed above, if you want high sales, write to the lowest common denominator -- the best seller charts are full of lookalike romance novels and spy thrillers. If you want good stories, write them and hope people will appreciate.

Glyph wrote:If I already knew everything about them, there'd be nothing to read the comics for.

Exactly -- it's not fun for everything about a character to be reducible to a few sentences on a card and some numbers. The difference between out-of-character and character development is what justification is given for changes, not just that there's change.

Glyph wrote:anticip...ation

Heh. Indeed. If we know what's coming next, the only things of interest are the art and dialogue. A prequel series has to work harder if we know who's alive later on, because that element of revelation is lacking.

I just think a truly talented writer could do it all. Write interesting stories that stick to guidelines and people will read it. Furman makes up a huge mythology with no basis. It's not undiscovered. There's simply no one interested. And, you'll see, as Loki said, this continuity will be dead in a year or so 'cause the sales won't support it. Besides the movie already has nothing to do with Infiltration or Escalation. They are already on their own.

And, that's the difficulty stated by Hot_Rod in the beginning. Always a new take. We will be forever challenged. It is what makes it difficult for new comers to truly appreciate our hobby. It's why many have left.

I can certainly say my enjoyment of TF's had taken severe blows over the last couple of years. Stormwolf asks "It won't bother you if you don't read comics, so what's the problem?" The problem is that I WANT to read comics. I've been such a hardcore fan. You wouldn't believe how many times I've read them over. How I could quote them. Even went through every single one and counted the appearances of every character. I mean HARD F'N CORE.

And now, I look at it all and think about what garbage it all actually was. And, how there's very little hope that it'll ever be decent again. It does bother me. As bookofjunon said, it's because we care.

Leonardo wrote:

Yeti wrote:I'm not keen on Galvy not been Megs. It just doesn't sit right with me. I'm all for new takes, but it just sees TOO radical. As ever, I'll reserve final judgement till I read it.

Too radical? Wasn't G1 Galvatron intended to be a different character to G1 Megatron originally, anyway?

What, I'm so confused.... I thought Megatron turn into Galvatron...or what that just for the movie? Then why was Galvatron so close to Soundwave? I'm so embrassed to ask, but give me a history lesson someone or links???

Grimshock wrote: Furman makes up a huge mythology with no basis.

He's one of the two main character creators prior to Beast Wars and an official writer for the franchise.

That's what creators do -- create stuff. Make it up. They're paid to do it, they're sanctioned to do it, they're asked to do it. If we're talking basis or right, Furman has both.

Whilst some of us'd be very happy if things just continued straight on where the first lot of comics left off, it isn't feasible to expect people to invest hundreds of dollars and read the ten years of material before it.

Leonardo wrote:Wasn't G1 Galvatron intended to be a different character to G1 Megatron originally, anyway?

There are quite a few stories out there (Ladybird, Big Looker, etc) that reference Galvatron as a city commander, and the techspec the toy came with gives no link to Megatron.

It was deliberate misinformation so that things in the film would come as a surprise to audiences... but got passed to companies who were writing books as well.

Megatron getting upgraded to Galvatron was in the movie script from early on, the toy kept a gun mode, etc.