The Energon Pub

Well, I was wrong. I did not expect HasTak to do this. 3P has been eating their lunch for over a decade and they've just...let it, unlike any other industry. But I guess the sight of their backers dropping off woke the beast so they've finally retaliated. Who knows where it stops now?

For the record I WAS going to buy Core Star. It's the superior figure and Zeta weren't taking their customers for complete idiots. $600 for a toy is, in my view, outrageous and that's leaving aside that it's a massive shell-former. $350-$400 for MP-44 is also outrageous. I've watched Hasbro's pricing over the last few years, taking massive jumps up that fans just seem to suck up and justify to each other, usually relying on industry knowledge or their armchair evaluations of production practice. Maybe 3P is to blame here. If they can sell an Overlord for $180, why bother selling Masterpieces at around $100? Let's just double/triple it why the heck not: the fans aren't complaining!

Those Deluxes and Voyagers for The Last Knight selling at a 30% markup over their generations counterparts, for a range of toys that were mostly repaints from previous lines? An experiment. And now we're lapping up Generations Selects figures - mostly repaints - for $35 and imported Takara "selects" repaints for nearly TWICE the normal retail RRP. Nemesis Prime VOYAGER for $60??? You're having a **** laugh, Takara. You've painted the optimus mold the deeply unimaginative black-and-teal and given it a sword from design stock. That's not an extra $35 dollars of value, not on any planet in any universe. Seacons that are SELLING OUT at 2-3 times the normal retail value? FFS. And let's not forget that in POTP they took two sets of twins and tried to split them between FOUR $100 box sets of repaints, then shot themselves in the foot by making them rarer than hens' jock straps so they had to abandon the plans for the last two sets, releasing the last pair of twins by themselves.

It's greed gone rampant and we're just feeding it, dull-eyed cows being led to slaughter. At some point enough has to be enough. Lines have to be drawn. I drew mine over WFC Unicron being the cost of a months rent.

And for the chap above saying that Zeta pulled some bad business ****, you're wrong. This was the PERFECT time to market their own figure AND IT WAS WORKING. Hasbro marketed their effort very badly, so someone capitalised on it. You want ethics? Let's talk about the way HasTak do business currently, gouging their customers more and more every year: it's becoming abusive and it's got to stop.

Black Hat wrote:Their Weibo and various other accounts are still up. I don't think Zetacron is down for the count, this is probably just them waiting for the bullsh!t to blow over.

With regards to the timing, Zetacron has been in production for a while now (before HasLab 'cron IIRC) but only recently got a finished prototype shown off. Bad timing perhaps but I think it's a bit silly to call it a "scummy move" to deliberately undermine the official offering. This seems more like an unfortunate coincidence than an evil ploy.

With regards to Hasbro striking the video, calling it Unicron in the vid was a bad idea. I HIGHLY doubt Hasbro even has any interest in actually "fighting" 3Ps though. According to sources that shall remain nameless for, shall we say, security reasons, Hasbro and 3Ps have had a "gentlemen's agreement" for a long damn time and even share ideas at events. This is most likely posturing for formality's sake and not an actual threat to either side.

With regards to the IP law debacle, US IP law is a decrepit, jumbled, corrupt mess that has been warped so far from its original meaning (largely by lobbyists from Disney trying to avoid their properties entering the public domain ever ever ever) that quite frankly it needs to be taken out the back of the shed and put out of its misery. Obviously some level of IP law needs to exist, but in it present state anything that undermines it is a good thing, just because it will hopefully pave the way for reform.

TLDR: US IP law is ridiculous and is not a good basis for an argument of how IP should be handled.

Finally, whilst as I have said many a time I have no real horse in this race, and I hope that both make it into production and everyone that wants them can get them, I would find it bitterly ironic if this really was the end of Zetacron...and then HasLab Unicron failed anyway and nobody got an updated Unicron. Obviously I sincerely hope that doesn't happen, but I fear that it might.

On a more positive note, if these do succeed I would love to see the old BWN Unicron get resurrected and released somehow.

Single best post in this entire thread.

Black Hat wrote:On a more positive note, if these do succeed I would love to see the old BWN Unicron get resurrected and released somehow.

I wish for it too. Especially if he'd be the exact same size as the Armada one. That BWN design was bad-ass, even though he's shamelessly a pure shell-former.

I also wish for the G1 prototype to be made. Simply for the very "vintage" feel and look.

If only Zeta Toys had just been more patient and waited for the deadline to end before showing off their version.

Sabrblade wrote:If only Zeta Toys had just been more patient and waited for the deadline to end before showing off their version.

And not used trademarked names in their product videos. That is what brought Dragon Momoko down with regards to Bandai.

IP laws are complete bullshit due to the aforementioned Disney and lobbies and Hasbro is a crummy company on many accounts but...yeah, it is a bit of a dick move to reveal their own not!Unicron and mentionning it is Unicron when Hasbro is doing their already contentious crowdfunding. This is very much not the same as the other 3P 'niches', such as not!Masterpiece (which for a long time did characters HasTak did not plan to do) or not!IDW designs (which Hasbro only barely touched during 3P). Then you got Iron Factory which is doing high quality Legends-scaled stuff or companies who only mostly produce accessories to enhance a Hasbro figure.

Trying to push a big Unicron figure right now is just a plain dick move that openly compete with Hastak's market, as opposed to releasing a more niche collector product.

Crosscheck wrote:

Sabrblade wrote:If only Zeta Toys had just been more patient and waited for the deadline to end before showing off their version.

And not used trademarked names in their product videos. That is what brought Dragon Momoko down with regards to Bandai.

Yeah. That was a dumb move. I forgot that part of the video but I indeed went "wut?" when I saw that.

Regimus Prime wrote:Good on Hasbro for putting a stop (temporary or permanent) to Zeta’s blatant attempt to syphon their crowd funding effort. I get it, there have been years of 3P options on some fan favorites that Hasbro/Takara Tony had yet to produce particularly for the MP line, but really? In the midst of Haslab attempting to secure backers for Unicron you slide in with your bootleg offering? That’s some unlicensed street vendor, buyer better beware, swap meet knock off, low life bad form right there. You can agree or disagree with Hasbro’s roll out of this project, it’s price point, G1 movie accuracy, sculpt paint apps, scale... you can even argue the merits of creating competition and driving the market with 3P offerings but that was just really underhanded. Me personally, I’ve always frowned upon bootlegs of any merchandise I wish to purchase. I want the real deal Holyfield. I’ve been a bit of a sneaker head for years and couldn’t imagine buying knockoff Jordan’s. I’m a fan of Mike. I followed his career and willingly supported his brand. If Brand Jordan put out a pair of shoes but not in the color way I wanted I could customize em or pass and buy another choice that won my dollar. But if another brand wins my dollar they must have produced THEIR OWN PRODUCT/IP that I could get behind. I can respect that. But jacking another companies IP and leeching off of THEIR fans?... I gotta pass regardless on the 3Ps out of respect for the brand that I grew up with because I’m a fan. If they put out a product that I don’t like or is out of my budget I’ll purchase another legitimate item from another brand I respect.

Boom.

I am willing to fill gaps as I wait for Hasbro to fill them, but that's as far as I go.

I'm surprised no one has done a not Unicron named "One Time." That's what I would have called it.

I’m just going to throw my two cents in to this whole debacle.
1. No court documents have arisen, meaning hasbro is not pursuing legal action.
2. Only some videos and their Facebook have been taken down. The effected YouTube videos have a claim by an accredited source. If this really was hasbro they would have the weibo ones and all other YouTube videos taken down.
3. On all previous accounts of 3P’s genuinely infringing in hasbro’s copyright, the only one to possibly have ever had any result is when Toyworld used the name “Optimus Prime” in an official listing for their large scale Bumblebee movie Optimus

There is no reason why hasbro would go after a third party because their $200 ball was announced during the campaign of their $600 ball. The sheer amount of legal grey areas and difficulty for going through with this is unreasonable. I don’t personally care which you prefer but there is nothing going on besides some English only being angry Zeta unicron was announced during the Haslab unicron campaign and attempting to convince people it was cancelled by fraudulently copyright striking posts about it ok English-speaking sites.

If Hasbro really wants to stick it to 3rd parties that are based out of the US-most of which seem to be based out of China- they just need to make a stance with retailers. Literally threaten to not supply to places like tfsource and bbts. While that may not seem like a huge threat to some think about all the properties Hasbro makes toys for, Star Wars and marvel.

I’m baffled Hasbro hasn’t gone to that extent of threatening to not do service with those places. It’s a solid way to make a stand. Tell bbts that if they chose to sell products that infringe on their IP than they will not be allowed to sell anything habsro produces. I would wager that would hit the 3rd party market hard coz a lot of retailers aren’t willing to lose Star Wars and marvel toys

Stuff like that does happen in the real world

If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Honestly I hope this is Hasbro's work and Zeta has to shut it down, and hopefully sending a message to other illegal 3rd parties and KO companies . Because I am in a few TF groups that think its perfectly legal for a unlicensed 3rd parties (or KOs) to make toys that are spot on, if not Identical to an existing Transformers characters that are copyrighted to Hasbro/Takara, but they only change its name (Usually to something similar) and just not add faction symbols.

Zetas unicorn is still available to order at tf-direct but I’m not surprised by that since that place sells factory defects and stolen stuff from factories, I know from past purchases. They were selling wave 2 of titans return Deluxes months before they were released and I thought maybe they got an early shipment so I ordered them. No packaging and were all factory defects.

YRQRM0 wrote:If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Translation: “Dear Hasbro, I know this hurts but I benefit so you should be cool with it.”

Why is it greedy for Hasbro to want to protect their property and enforce their copyright, but not greedy of Zeta to totally rip it off without paying dues or licensing fees?

megatronus wrote:

YRQRM0 wrote:If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Translation: “Dear Hasbro, I know this hurts but I benefit so you should be cool with it.”

If I was to translate crowdfunding by a public listed company it would be "we'll benefit from this and think you'll be cool with it even though itl hurt all the people who cant raise the money in time"

While Unicron's price could of been better perhaps if Hasbro had opened up orders internationally in return for a bigger stretch goal having to be met (like say 1000-1500) as it is for how big and how much mass of plastic is used to make the guy it is quite unrealistic to make it any cheaper yet make the amount there is.

I think it could of been a little bit cheaper if there was less of him to go around, such as 3000-4000 instead of 8000 and reduce the amount of plastic that would need to be used to mass produce him but at that point Unicron might of ended up being too limited.


It is certainly pretty expensive but this is a novelty item similar to some of the statues that get put up for 1000's that clearly have enough market to still get made.

PadForce wrote:

megatronus wrote:

YRQRM0 wrote:If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Translation: “Dear Hasbro, I know this hurts but I benefit so you should be cool with it.”

If I was to translate crowdfunding by a public listed company it would be "we'll benefit from this and think you'll be cool with it even though itl hurt all the people who cant raise the money in time"

I can't help but roll my eyes at this perspective.

Why are you personally offended that a large corporation would dare attempt to crowdfund a product with no market precedent such as this one?

I would translate HasLab crowdfunding as: "Hey, we invested 18 months of R&D into this cool thing. Do you want this cool thing at X price that makes it worth it for us to produce? If you do, great, we'll make it! If not, I'm sorry, we can't."

Deadput wrote:While Unicron's price could of been better perhaps if Hasbro had opened up orders internationally in return for a bigger stretch goal having to be met (like say 1000-1500) as it is for how big and how much mass of plastic is used to make the guy it is quite unrealistic to make it any cheaper yet make the amount there is.

I think it could of been a little bit cheaper if there was less of him to go around, such as 3000-4000 instead of 8000 and reduce the amount of plastic that would need to be used to mass produce him but at that point Unicron might of ended up being too limited.


It is certainly pretty expensive but this is a novelty item similar to some of the statues that get put up for 1000's that clearly have enough market to still get made.

A lower production run would have made Unicron more expensive, not less.



Also, it's not like Hasbro can just decide to distribute things to different countries. As of now it appears international orders do not count towards the 8000 number needed for US production. Takara Tomy has its own books, Hasbro has its own books, Hasbro UK has its own books, etc. etc. There are likely regulatory or accounting hurdles that prevent Hasbro from simply "opening it up" to the rest of the world without specific retail partners, a la EB Games in Australia.

I take a huge issue with the lack of clarity on how this all works, and really wish someone at Hasbro would explain why this is the way it is. We might not be happy with the explanation, but at least there would be some kind of explanation (and ostensibly less confusion, but that may be giving the fandom too much credit).

megatronus wrote:

PadForce wrote:

megatronus wrote:

YRQRM0 wrote:If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Translation: “Dear Hasbro, I know this hurts but I benefit so you should be cool with it.”

If I was to translate crowdfunding by a public listed company it would be "we'll benefit from this and think you'll be cool with it even though itl hurt all the people who cant raise the money in time"

I can't help but roll my eyes at this perspective.

Why are you personally offended that a large corporation would dare attempt to crowdfund a product with no market precedent such as this one?

I would translate HasLab crowdfunding as: "Hey, we invested 18 months of R&D into this cool thing. Do you want this cool thing at X price that makes it worth it for us to produce? If you do, great, we'll make it! If not, I'm sorry, we can't."

Problem is, it's not that cool. Zeta showed how a unicron could be made that actually transforms. If it took haslab 18 months to come up with a robot inside a shell,they need to hire new designers.

megatronus wrote:

PadForce wrote:

megatronus wrote:

YRQRM0 wrote:If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Translation: “Dear Hasbro, I know this hurts but I benefit so you should be cool with it.”

If I was to translate crowdfunding by a public listed company it would be "we'll benefit from this and think you'll be cool with it even though itl hurt all the people who cant raise the money in time"

I can't help but roll my eyes at this perspective.

Why are you personally offended that a large corporation would dare attempt to crowdfund a product with no market precedent such as this one?

I would translate HasLab crowdfunding as: "Hey, we invested 18 months of R&D into this cool thing. Do you want this cool thing at X price that makes it worth it for us to produce? If you do, great, we'll make it! If not, I'm sorry, we can't."

It's not even the first time they've done this, which makes the vitriol towards the crowdfunding a project confusing to me.

They only ask for customer buy in on things with huge downsides to produce in the mass market, anyway.

PadForce wrote:Problem is, it's not that cool. Zeta showed how a unicron could be made that actually transforms. If it took haslab 18 months to come up with a robot inside a shell,they need to hire new designers.

"It's not that cool" is a matter of opinion.

I think it's fantastic that the planet mode is actually accurate, that the transformation incorporates major cues from the iconic movie scene where Unicron unfurls (which is why he's a shellformer), and that he is appropriately large to symbolize his relative place in the Transformers mythos.

Those are positives Zeta cannot boast.

If you like Zeta for the robot mode and size, and can overlook or prefer the inaccurate planet mode (whose final color scheme has not been revealed), the explode and reform panels-on-rods transformation, the panel-y collar and shoulders, and relatively diminutive size - well, then bully for you.

megatronus wrote:

YRQRM0 wrote:If this is true...

I get Hasbro has the right and respect that. But a lot of us were a bit disappointed in Haslab Unicron to begin with, pointing out that indeed the kibble could be managed better, not many features, etc. Some people were acting like this was nonsense, but the Zeta one proved you could do better imo, even if they fell short in some areas like the planet mode.

I was going to buy Haslab until I saw Zeta, and I'm sure not going back to Haslab now just because Zeta isn't available anymore. If that's what they're hoping for (it must be), I think that's ridiculous and greedy. They've already lost to many 3P designs and this was just one more that they should have accepted.

Translation: “Dear Hasbro, I know this hurts but I benefit so you should be cool with it.”

Why is it greedy for Hasbro to want to protect their property and enforce their copyright, but not greedy of Zeta to totally rip it off without paying dues or licensing fees?

People here seem to lose sight of the fact that making a Unicron is not their choice to make. Period. It’s not their choice because it’s not their property. No 3P has a right to these characters but they do this anyways.

And we all know it, it’s why we’re all here debating it. Change your name for a month, just see how that goes for you. There is value in a name and who you are just like there’s value to these characters. 3P’s are pirates. Plain and simple.

And Hasbro doesn’t need to be in quotes. They’re not a theory they’re an actual company.

Way too much harsh in here dudes! Some vids got taken down and people are going all Dinobot rampage. Why don't we all just chill and watch da movie till we kno what's goin' on? U know, facts an stuff?

Black Hat wrote:With regards to the timing, Zetacron has been in production for a while now (before HasLab 'cron IIRC) but only recently got a finished prototype shown off. Bad timing perhaps but I think it's a bit silly to call it a "scummy move" to deliberately undermine the official offering. This seems more like an unfortunate coincidence than an evil ploy.

They pushed it up from a September 10 announce date once they saw the HasLab deadline extend. Yea, I'd say it's pretty damn scummy.

Black Hat wrote:With regards to Hasbro striking the video, calling it Unicron in the vid was a bad idea. I HIGHLY doubt Hasbro even has any interest in actually "fighting" 3Ps though. According to sources that shall remain nameless for, shall we say, security reasons, Hasbro and 3Ps have had a "gentlemen's agreement" for a long damn time and even share ideas at events. This is most likely posturing for formality's sake and not an actual threat to either side.

I call BS on you having a "source" outside of anonymous web whispering & speculation, but I agree it's highly unlikely Hasbro would actually go after 3rd Party, as much as I would like that. Too expensive for too uncertain an outcome.

Black Hat wrote:With regards to the IP law debacle, US IP law is a decrepit, jumbled, corrupt mess that has been warped so far from its original meaning (largely by lobbyists from Disney trying to avoid their properties entering the public domain ever ever ever) that quite frankly it needs to be taken out the back of the shed and put out of its misery. Obviously some level of IP law needs to exist, but in it present state anything that undermines it is a good thing, just because it will hopefully pave the way for reform.

I also call BS on you having any substantial insight into US IP law. However, while Disney has been known to abuse the legal system on multiple fronts, not just this one, we should note that Hasbro =/= Disney. Whatever Disney's doing isn't really doing much to help Hasbro, for better or worse.

EunuchRon wrote:Way too much harsh in here dudes! Some vids got taken down and people are going all Dinobot rampage. Why don't we all just chill and watch da movie till we kno what's goin' on? U know, facts an stuff?

Why would we do that? We have to make people believe the thing we like is better than the thing they like. How dare somebody have a different set of preferences?

Hasbro loyalists and 3rd party fans have argued this same tired argument since the 3rd party thing started, and we probably always will. It's like dems vs repubs now, the two sides just fight because that's all we know how to do.