The Energon Pub

Ironhidensh wrote:

Seibertron wrote:
What is most bafflingly is the short sightedness that 3rd party supporters have for the long term longevity of this brand and the damage that 3rd party does to the official brand and to Hasbro and Takara Tomy. I'm in this hobby for the long haul. I've been collecting since 1984. Never stopped. It has been my passion for all but the first 7 years of my life. This site is here because of my passion. I dread the moment thinking about this fandom and the Transformers brand ultimately being destroyed because of the long term damage 3rd party products does to both. The more 3rd party takes over the fandom, the closer the brand is to ultimately failing.

What long term damage? I’m not trying to be a smart ass, l’m genuinely curious and want to know. I might not be as passionate as you, but I’ve been a fan for just as long. Well almost. I left the fandom shortly after the fallout from the first movie.

3rd party products played a huge part in bringing me back in. In fact, I still buy official product largely because of the interest 3rd party keeps with me. Every collector I know of who buys 3rd party is the same. It enhances and expands our interest in official product.

Also, we are such I tiny slice of the consumer pie, I have a hard time believing we are even a blip on Hasbros radar. Especially considering in the years since 3rd party came about, the brand has done nothing but grow. Also, the main slice of market 3rd party affects is masterpiece, a slice Hasbro cares very little for. Their money and success comes from big box retail store lines. They may pay lip service to mp, but their actions speak louder. Any dollars given to 3rd party were dollars never going to Hasbro in the first place, as Hasbro had nothing to sell. No loss = no damage. When and if Hasbro (well, Takara really) does offer an official figure, almost every 3rd party collector I know buys it as well. MP-44 Prime May be the first to buck that trend, but that is more because of the ludicrous price, and even then, most are buying it as well.

Hasbro sees no threat, why should we? Again, I’m not trying to be a smart ass here, but if I’m missing something beyond differences of believe in the ethics of business practice, I do want to know.

Since you're legit curious, IP-Infringing Companies (really, "3rd Party" is as much a misnomer as "retool" is in its current use) can cause damage not just financially through loss of potential revenue, but also to the general view on what's allowed in normal business and copyright, and what illegal shenanigans should be "tolerated". Not talking Transformers here, but in any market you can think of in the grand scheme of things.

Laws, or even rules in general, have no effect unless it is enforced, even then the effect can vary depending on how it's done. A good example of that would the Dutch legal policy on drugs. Technically illegal throughout, but a "tolerance policy" is in place if the amount is small and for personal use (they're now experimenting with state-sponsored suppliers for better control). This is to conserve resources for bigger fish, to keep the would-be offenders at bay while keeping them placid. When they know their place, they stay there.
Hasbro has something similar in place, the companies know that, and stay put to avoid stepping on the big boy's tail. Zeta Toys however had the guts to publicly announce their project, which is similar to what Hasbro the owner of the IP is doing, and letting the video name the inspiration (albeit misspelled). This would have been an ideal moment for the seed planted long ago to sprout, giving other companies the same idea "hey, we can do that without Hasbro intervening? Sweet!". Instead, Hasbro nipped it in the bud, saying "to here and no further".

The move to have the video pulled was more for the protection of the market as a whole which copyright is the base principle of. I don't think I'll need to explain what would happen if any market was flooded with tons of similar or copied product of inferior quality for a quick cash grab. It may not turn into a 1933 redux, but a certain 1983 crash was bad enough.

william-james88 wrote:

bvzxa wrote: However if Hasbro goes after 3P it will hurt them in the long run as the fans have always bought official as well as 3P.

But wasnt the whole point of this whole Zeta thing that fans were wanting to buy 3p but not official?

Also, how does Hasbro get hurt in the long run from going after 3p? I thought they would only get hurt short term due to extra for legal fees and such.

MP market is powerful. E-Tailers make money selling 3P without rammifications from Hasbro. The fans of the MP line would really be hurt. Hasbro can shut it down if they want to. The 3P companies know how to skirt around them it was just Zeta that made the mistake.

If Hasbro cracks down a lot of people involved would be affected which would come back to Hasbro because particulary because MP fans are tired of waiting, they want their figures for the MP line whether Hasbro makes them or not.

Hasbro is always going to win but the fandom will cryout.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

Ironhidensh wrote:

Seibertron wrote:
What is most bafflingly is the short sightedness that 3rd party supporters have for the long term longevity of this brand and the damage that 3rd party does to the official brand and to Hasbro and Takara Tomy. I'm in this hobby for the long haul. I've been collecting since 1984. Never stopped. It has been my passion for all but the first 7 years of my life. This site is here because of my passion. I dread the moment thinking about this fandom and the Transformers brand ultimately being destroyed because of the long term damage 3rd party products does to both. The more 3rd party takes over the fandom, the closer the brand is to ultimately failing.

What long term damage? I’m not trying to be a smart ass, l’m genuinely curious and want to know. I might not be as passionate as you, but I’ve been a fan for just as long. Well almost. I left the fandom shortly after the fallout from the first movie.

3rd party products played a huge part in bringing me back in. In fact, I still buy official product largely because of the interest 3rd party keeps with me. Every collector I know of who buys 3rd party is the same. It enhances and expands our interest in official product.

Also, we are such I tiny slice of the consumer pie, I have a hard time believing we are even a blip on Hasbros radar. Especially considering in the years since 3rd party came about, the brand has done nothing but grow. Also, the main slice of market 3rd party affects is masterpiece, a slice Hasbro cares very little for. Their money and success comes from big box retail store lines. They may pay lip service to mp, but their actions speak louder. Any dollars given to 3rd party were dollars never going to Hasbro in the first place, as Hasbro had nothing to sell. No loss = no damage. When and if Hasbro (well, Takara really) does offer an official figure, almost every 3rd party collector I know buys it as well. MP-44 Prime May be the first to buck that trend, but that is more because of the ludicrous price, and even then, most are buying it as well.

Hasbro sees no threat, why should we? Again, I’m not trying to be a smart ass here, but if I’m missing something beyond differences of believe in the ethics of business practice, I do want to know.

Since you're legit curious, IP-Infringing Companies (really, "3rd Party" is as much a misnomer as "retool" is in its current use) can cause damage not just financially through loss of potential revenue, but also to the general view on what's allowed in normal business and copyright, and what illegal shenanigans should be "tolerated". Not talking Transformers here, but in any market you can think of in the grand scheme of things.

Laws, or even rules in general, have no effect unless it is enforced, even then the effect can vary depending on how it's done. A good example of that would the Dutch legal policy on drugs. Technically illegal throughout, but a "tolerance policy" is in place if the amount is small and for personal use (they're now experimenting with state-sponsored suppliers for better control). This is to conserve resources for bigger fish, to keep the would-be offenders at bay while keeping them placid. When they know their place, they stay there.
Hasbro has something similar in place, the companies know that, and stay put to avoid stepping on the big boy's tail. Zeta Toys however had the guts to publicly announce their project, which is similar to what Hasbro the owner of the IP is doing, and letting the video name the inspiration (albeit misspelled). This would have been an ideal moment for the seed planted long ago to sprout, giving other companies the same idea "hey, we can do that without Hasbro intervening? Sweet!". Instead, Hasbro nipped it in the bud, saying "to here and no further".

The move to have the video pulled was more for the protection of the market as a whole which copyright is the base principle of. I don't think I'll need to explain what would happen if any market was flooded with tons of similar or copied product of inferior quality for a quick cash grab. It may not turn into a 1933 redux, but a certain 1983 crash was bad enough.

So it's almost like if the line/bar keeps getting pushed further and further without being enforced then the standard (or maybe more importantly the perception of the standard) changes and so too do the rules that apply to it.

Well if this is ok, then that's ok, and if that's ok, then more is ok. And so on and so forth. And really it's about the perception of acceptability changing.

If they set precedents for complacency then they can't back pedal later. Am I kind of getting that right?

How many of the 3P detractors work for Hasbro? Just curious because many of y'all sound like you know but really dont know anything. Y'all tring to explain sh8t only Hasbro can explain lol this site is hilarious at times

bvzxa wrote:Hasbro is always going to win but the fandom will cryout.

I can definitely see that and agree with it, we are seeing it right now. Just not sure how big that specific fandom is. Thanks for the reply bvzxa!

william-james88 wrote:

bvzxa wrote:Hasbro is always going to win but the fandom will cryout.

I can definitely see that and agree with it, we are seeing it right now. Just not sure how big that specific fandom is. Thanks for the reply bvzxa!

I only agree with you because of what I know in business as I work for a Fortune '50' comapny in the business department. However is if there is a big enough "segment" or "market" that can create any loss in profits, even in the slighest, the company will correct that to make sure the "market" or "segment" is pleased. And if you dont know "your" market then you either do research or find something else to do lol!!

The MP market when it comes to 3P is "yuuuge" in my Trump voice

bvzxa wrote:If Hasbro cracks down a lot of people involved would be affected which would come back to Hasbro because particulary because MP fans are tired of waiting, they want their figures for the MP line whether Hasbro makes them or not.

Hasbro is always going to win but the fandom will cryout.

I don't understand this, hasbro isn't in charge of making mp's, go talk to TT about a lack of product

Well as long as pleasing that market share isn't unrealistic in its means (like say they insist on having a quality, cheap as chips mp release every month) some people can be extreme in their demands and a lot if that comes from not realising how the large companies work.

Also I don't work for hasbro...if I did we'd have starsaber by now and said good bye to silly cartoon accuracy....i wouldn't have lasted long.

ZeroWolf wrote:Well as long as pleasing that market share isn't unrealistic in its means (like say they insist on having a quality, cheap as chips mp release every month) some people can be extreme in their demands and a lot if that comes from not realising how the large companies work.

Also I don't work for hasbro...if I did we'd have starsaber by now and said good bye to silly cartoon accuracy....i wouldn't have lasted long.

I also don’t work for Hasbro but I...play one on TV? What do you even say to that? sorry man but we’re just nutso fans like the rest of y’all. Plain and simple. But, if I’m elected over my opponent Zerwolf I will guarantee a Star Saber that’s cartoon accurate and a new fridge in the news break room. That’s my election promise.

Cartoon accurate to Victory? Or to Armada and I see that fridge and I raise you Unicron drones that smash large icebergs like planets to constantly have ice ready when you need it.

william-james88 wrote:While I never cared for 3rd party either way (always found it too pricey for my taste so I only ever bought 3 and only 1 actually impressed me) I am really surprised that there are people out there who think they have the right to exist and do what they do, and that Hasbro is wrong to intervene if they wish. That makes no sense.

But hey, with that attitude, I think there's some potential. Batman live action films are sorely needed, the demand is HUGE and we are not getting enough. We always have to wait years for a new one. So, since you guys are cool with all this IP stuff, how about you make a live action Batman film and distribute it online on Itunes and Google Play, charging people for it. Just dont call him batman (not too hard, everyone knows who he is and you can say dark knight or caped crusader or simply bat) and come up with your own variation of the Bat Symbol and you'll be good. Billions of dollars await you, and demand will be met. So get on it!

The weird reality to this though is that 3P, to this extent, doesn't really exist outside of Transformers. You'll always have KO's, but no one is making a Red Wolverine and calling him "Canada-Man". Whether that is because other franchises extended their copyrights to likeness as well as name, is unknown. For whatever their reasons, HasTak have allowed this market to grow parallel to their IP. All those vehemently decrying 3P offerings as theft if not outright illegal, the evidence suggests that Hasbro - The owner - simply doesn't share your view.

Also the thing to remember is that Hasbro is the Number One toy maker in the world. With hundreds of thousands of employees at all levels, globally. To think they can't fill the MP line with all the additional characters that 3P provides, because they are busy making all their other lines, is very naive. They are not a two guys in a shed operation, they are a Mega corporation. The MP designers have probably never even worked on SIEGE, Generations or even Marvel Legends before.

They cherry-pick for the MP line. The characters that are guaranteed high profit. Pure and simple. So they won't pick MP Wreck Gar or Skids, because they are second to third tier characters no one really cares about. But Optimus 9.0 will always sell, because he is a figurehead of the franchise.

FYI, The MP designers work on all sorts of products, including the more simplistic kid oriented ones.

william-james88 wrote:FYI, The MP designers work on all sorts of products, including the more simplistic kid oriented ones.

Yes, but I'd assume there is more than two of them

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The weird reality to this though is that 3P, to this extent, doesn't really exist outside of Transformers. You'll always have KO's, but no one is making a Red Wolverine and calling him "Canada-Man". Whether that is because other franchises extended their copyrights to likeness as well as name, is unknown. For whatever their reasons, HasTak have allowed this market to grow parallel to their IP. All those vehemently decrying 3P offerings as theft if not outright illegal, the evidence suggests that Hasbro - The owner - simply doesn't share your view.

Whatever Hasbro thinks doesn't make a difference in whatever laws are violated if any. As the owner, Hasbro has the choice to take action against such violations; lack of action doesn't mean it's suddenly legal or perfectly ok to do so, just that Hasbro (grudgingly) turns a blind eye until the potential damages become too big to ignore, plain and simple.

Hasbro has taken a stance before, banning IP-infringing merchandise (including fanart) from BotCon 2012 on, and will do so again in the future.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The weird reality to this though is that 3P, to this extent, doesn't really exist outside of Transformers. You'll always have KO's, but no one is making a Red Wolverine and calling him "Canada-Man". Whether that is because other franchises extended their copyrights to likeness as well as name, is unknown. For whatever their reasons, HasTak have allowed this market to grow parallel to their IP. All those vehemently decrying 3P offerings as theft if not outright illegal, the evidence suggests that Hasbro - The owner - simply doesn't share your view.

Whatever Hasbro thinks doesn't make a difference in whatever laws are violated if any. As the owner, Hasbro has the choice to take action against such violations; lack of action doesn't mean it's suddenly legal or perfectly ok to do so, just that Hasbro (grudgingly) turns a blind eye until the potential damages become too big to ignore, plain and simple.

That's just the thing. Lack of action on Hasbro's part would realistically suggest they don't care, as their profits and/or market share are far beyond what any 3P could achieve or damage. A 3P making MP Swoop isn't putting anyone at HasTak out of business, after all. "Grudgingly" or not is an assumption. Names aside, if Zeta had chosen to release their 3P Unicron last year or the next, I doubt Hasbro would have even noticed.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

william-james88 wrote:FYI, The MP designers work on all sorts of products, including the more simplistic kid oriented ones.

Yes, but I'd assume there is more than two of them

Yes and they are also working on other lines, especially in Takara's case, where they're also probably working on the Diaclone line (which is a solely Takara owned ip, unlike the Transformers, which they have to share) and the transforming train and car ones aimed at kids...I forget their names...

Also your comment about hasbro letting 3p exist only works to a point, a line that the 3p know not to cross...till an idiot crosses it.

ZeroWolf wrote:Also your comment about hasbro letting 3p exist only works to a point, a line that the 3p know not to cross...till an idiot crosses it.

Indeed. Which is the only reason 3P is being discussed here. Not some sudden legal/moral stance Hasbro have decided to take.

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The weird reality to this though is that 3P, to this extent, doesn't really exist outside of Transformers. You'll always have KO's, but no one is making a Red Wolverine and calling him "Canada-Man". Whether that is because other franchises extended their copyrights to likeness as well as name, is unknown. For whatever their reasons, HasTak have allowed this market to grow parallel to their IP. All those vehemently decrying 3P offerings as theft if not outright illegal, the evidence suggests that Hasbro - The owner - simply doesn't share your view.

Whatever Hasbro thinks doesn't make a difference in whatever laws are violated if any. As the owner, Hasbro has the choice to take action against such violations; lack of action doesn't mean it's suddenly legal or perfectly ok to do so, just that Hasbro (grudgingly) turns a blind eye until the potential damages become too big to ignore, plain and simple.

That's just the thing. Lack of action on Hasbro's part would realistically suggest they don't care, as their profits and/or market share are far beyond what any 3P could achieve or damage. A 3P making MP Swoop isn't putting anyone at HasTak out of business, after all. "Grudgingly" or not is an assumption. Names aside, if Zeta had chosen to release their 3P Unicron last year or the next, I doubt Hasbro would have even noticed.

That's why "grudgingly" was in parentheses (or whatever those () are called), but it does have a basis: ask anything 3P IP-infringing related at the next HasCon, you'll get the same results as at the BotCons *groans*

Hasbro "not caring" is as much as an assumption as "tolerating" is, to be honest. The point remains that Hasbro has the right to, and will, act if it feels threatened, which is what happened with Zeta Core Star's video, and possibly the timing of the project. The rest maybe not so much, it all depends on knowing what would pull which trigger.

JelZe GoldRabbit wrote:

AllNewSuperRobot wrote:The weird reality to this though is that 3P, to this extent, doesn't really exist outside of Transformers. You'll always have KO's, but no one is making a Red Wolverine and calling him "Canada-Man". Whether that is because other franchises extended their copyrights to likeness as well as name, is unknown. For whatever their reasons, HasTak have allowed this market to grow parallel to their IP. All those vehemently decrying 3P offerings as theft if not outright illegal, the evidence suggests that Hasbro - The owner - simply doesn't share your view.

Whatever Hasbro thinks doesn't make a difference in whatever laws are violated if any. As the owner, Hasbro has the choice to take action against such violations; lack of action doesn't mean it's suddenly legal or perfectly ok to do so, just that Hasbro (grudgingly) turns a blind eye until the potential damages become too big to ignore, plain and simple.

Hasbro has taken a stance before, banning IP-infringing merchandise (including fanart) from BotCon 2012 on, and will do so again in the future.

Marauder Gun Runners has started making unofficial reproductions of GI Joe characters. It's spreading.

This reminds me of the early 2000's when demand for Dance Dance Revolution was at its peak. Konami wasn't putting out new editions for the arcade fast enough for rabid fanboys, so a bunch of them got together and thought they could get away with directly ripping off DDR entirely, changing the graphics, adding "mines," and calling it "in the groove." That ended POORLY for Roxor Games. You can like your Transformers Knock-Offs all you want, but they're still illegal, and you know it.

In case people were curious as to the status of what this thread was really about ...

5,668 Backers

Has that gone back up after it went backwards?

Yup the 10 to 15 they lost after Zetas video have come back, great success, they got their $6000 to $9000 again. $1,434,180 to go...

I'm hoping it gets backed, but it doesn't look as if it'll happen.

Gauntlet101010 wrote:I'm hoping it gets backed, but it doesn't look as if it'll happen.

Never say never (I know you didn't say never but it's the sentiment that counts.)