The Energon Pub

Tsutsukakushi wrote:If every TF fan world wide was willing to spend over $4000 trying to get perfect 3rd party versions of TF combiners. Then the volume units per combiner team would be getting made in the hundreds of thousands. Not the barely 3000 volume units they are being made in per combiner team.

Clearly most worldwide fans are not that hard core on combiners toys and are willing to spend much less. Because they could care less about buying the more inferior flawed HasTak versions.

If every fan was willing to buy third party combiners, they'd probably cost less because the third party companies would feel more comfortable making them in greater numbers, thus spreading out the production costs.

If every fan was willing to spend $4,000.00 (A rather outrageous number, may I ask how you came by it? I've not seen any third party product yet break one thousand, never mind four.) then we wouldn't need third parties, as I have no doubt Hasbro would not mind tapping into that kind of income, and even be willing to produce more complex designs of the sort that have to be marketed purely at adults. Thus, Hasbro would no longer be "inferior" or "flawed" except to people determined to see them that way, no matter what the quality of their finished product might be.

False dichotomies aside (and speaking for the majority of TF Fandom, which isn't a good idea either, Tsut) how did you arrive at an MP Devastator cost of $270? If each bot is $80 like the cars are right now (which might be even low considering the possible scale [am I bringing this up again? I must be a glutton for punishment here] and complexity of MP Combiner figures) we are looking at an estimated $480, not $270.

I have a lot of trouble following your logic and reasoning, Tsut. Which makes following your argument about $4,000 tough as well.

Agamemnon wrote:False dichotomies aside (and speaking for the majority of TF Fandom, which isn't a good idea either, Tsut) how did you arrive at an MP Devastator cost of $270?

Oh, I missed where he said that! Hold on...

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Playing fair, Would be if Takara created a MP Devasator that cost $290 in Japan. Hasbro sold it for $175 in the states. Then fans compared this toy next to 3rd party devastators.

Yeah, you're suggesting about $49 per bot in Japan, and only about $30 per bot in the U.S.? For Masterpiece figures? Like Agamemnon, I fail to see how you can figure such numbers. I'd be surprised to see them sell for less then $60 each. If we are lucky, the U.S. release might be $50 each, and at that cost, no way they'd sell them in a set. So everyone have fun hunting down the individual figures! Hope the distribution (which often can suck for U.S. Masterpiece figures) doesn't... well... suck!

Agamemnon wrote:False dichotomies aside (and speaking for the majority of TF Fandom, which isn't a good idea either, Tsut) how did you arrive at an MP Devastator cost of $270? If each bot is $80 like the cars are right now (which might be even low considering the possible scale [am I bringing this up again? I must be a glutton for punishment here] and complexity of MP Combiner figures) we are looking at an estimated $480, not $270.

I have a lot of trouble following your logic and reasoning, Tsut. Which makes following your argument about $4,000 tough as well.

Yotsuyasan wrote:If every fan was willing to buy third party combiners, they'd probably cost less because the third party companies would feel more comfortable making them in greater numbers, thus spreading out the production costs.

If every fan was willing to spend $4,000.00 (A rather outrageous number, may I ask how you came by it? I've not seen any third party product yet break one thousand, never mind four.) then we wouldn't need third parties, as I have no doubt Hasbro would not mind tapping into that kind of income, and even be willing to produce more complex designs of the sort that have to be marketed purely at adults. Thus, Hasbro would no longer be "inferior" or "flawed" except to people determined to see them that way, no matter what the quality of their finished product might be.

Takara sold the MP TF Voyager cars bots in Japan for $55 each in stores. The $65 to $80 prices is the overhead middleman profits prices USA and overseas based import sites are charging.

You guys are assuming the HasTak MP TF combiners team members will be voyagers for the limbs-bots and Ultra-Leader for the team leader. Thats why you are coming up with higher prices than I am.

I think to keep cost down the HasTak MP TF Limbs bots will be deluxes while the team leader is voyager scale. Thats why my prices are lower.

Yotsuyasan wrote: If every fan was willing to spend $4,000.00 (A rather outrageous number, may I ask how you came by it? I've not seen any third party product yet break one thousand, never mind four.)

Agamemnon wrote: I have a lot of trouble following your logic and reasoning, Tsut. Which makes following your argument about $4,000 tough as well.

The $3000 to $4000 3rd party price I got was for buyers who plan to be a completist and buy all of the 3rd party 1980's G-1 Combiners toys from start to finsish. like buying all of the TFC TF combiners from start to finish ever made.

Is my caluculations price outrageously high? Lets do the $3000 to $4000 3rd parties combiners completist buying math now. TFC Hercules $600. TFC Superion $500. TFC Computron $500. Warbotron Bruticus $500. FP Menasor $400. TFC/MMC Predaking $500. TFC Defensor $500. 3rd party Abonimus $500. 3rd party Seacons $500. 3rd party Monstructor $350. The complete total price to buy everything comes to $4,850.

that $4,850 price only covered the Hasbro USA TF combiners. If you plan to buy some of those 3rd party Japanese Takara G-1 combiners like Liokaiser, Raiden and a recolored-retooled monstructor as Dinoking. Then add another $600 for Liokaiser. $600 for Raiden. $350 for Dinoking. this totals $1,550. $4,850 + $1550 equals $6400.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Takara sold the MP TF Voyager cars bots in Japan for $55 each in stores. The $65 to $80 prices is the overhead middleman profits prices
USA and overseas based import sites are charging.

You guys are assuming the HasTak MP TF combiners team members will be voyagers for the limbs-bots and Ultra-Leader for the team leader. Thats why you are coming up with higher prices than I am.

I think to keep cost down the HasTak MP TF Limbs bots will be deluxes while the team leader is voyager scale. Thats why my prices are lower.

I'm not sure why you quoted me in your last post, when you didn't address any of the questions I had raised in that particular quote in reguards to your claims reguarding, "If every TF fan world wide was willing to spend over $4000 trying to get perfect 3rd party versions of TF combiners." But okay, whatever.

As for the cost of hypothetical cost of a Has/Tak Masterpiece combiner... First of all, why are we even talking about Masterpiece combiners again in a thread about "Classics" style combiners and their third party equivelents, again? I'm a bit confused as to the relevance.

Secondly, you claimed a price of $290 for a hypothetical Masterpiece Devastator in Japan. Devastator is not four limb bots and a larger team leader. He is six identical sized bots. You are now saying that individual bots would be sold at $55 a piece, not an unreasonable assumption. Last I checked, $55 x 6 = $330, not $290. So the question still stands on where you got your hypothetical $290 from.

Yotsuyasan wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Takara sold the MP TF Voyager cars bots in Japan for $55 each in stores. The $65 to $80 prices is the overhead middleman profits prices
USA and overseas based import sites are charging.

You guys are assuming the HasTak MP TF combiners team members will be voyagers for the limbs-bots and Ultra-Leader for the team leader. Thats why you are coming up with higher prices than I am.

I think to keep cost down the HasTak MP TF Limbs bots will be deluxes while the team leader is voyager scale. Thats why my prices are lower.

I'm not sure why you quoted me in your last post, when you didn't address any of the questions I had raised in that particular quote in reguards to your claims reguarding, "If every TF fan world wide was willing to spend over $4000 trying to get perfect 3rd party versions of TF combiners." But okay, whatever.

As for the cost of hypothetical cost of a Has/Tak Masterpiece combiner... First of all, why are we even talking about Masterpiece combiners again in a thread about "Classics" style combiners and their third party equivelents, again? I'm a bit confused as to the relevance.

Secondly, you claimed a price of $290 for a hypothetical Masterpiece Devastator in Japan. Devastator is not four limb bots and a larger team leader. He is six identical sized bots. You are now saying that individual bots would be sold at $55 a piece, not an unreasonable assumption. Last I checked, $55 x 6 = $330, not $290. So the question still stands on where you got your hypothetical $290 from.

Your hoping and assuming each HasTak MP Constructicon would be Voyager scale, That's why your price is higher than mine.

I'm guessing and wanting each HasTak MP Constructicon will be Deluxe scale, Times 6 team members that form Devastator. This is why my price is much lower than yours.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Yotsuyasan wrote: If every fan was willing to spend $4,000.00 (A rather outrageous number, may I ask how you came by it? I've not seen any third party product yet break one thousand, never mind four.)

Agamemnon wrote: I have a lot of trouble following your logic and reasoning, Tsut. Which makes following your argument about $4,000 tough as well.

The $3000 to $4000 3rd party price I got was for buyers who plan to be a completist and buy all of the 3rd party 1980's G-1 Combiners toys from start to finsish. like buying all of the TFC TF combiners from start to finish ever made.

Is my caluculations price outrageously high? Lets do the $3000 to $4000 3rd parties combiners completist buying math now. TFC Hercules $600. TFC Superion $500. TFC Computron $500. Warbotron Bruticus $500. FP Menasor $400. TFC/MMC Predaking $500. TFC Defensor $500. 3rd party Abonimus $500. 3rd party Seacons $500. 3rd party Monstructor $350. The complete total price to buy everything comes to $4,850.

that $4,850 price only covered the Hasbro USA TF combiners. If you plan to buy some of those 3rd party Japanese Takara G-1 combiners like Liokaiser, Raiden and a recolored-retooled monstructor as Dinoking. Then add another $600 for Liokaiser. $600 for Raiden. $350 for Dinoking. this totals $1,550. $4,850 + $1550 equals $6400.

Ah, sorry. I see you have answered that question now. (Strange, still, that you quoted my asking about it in your previous post...)

The way you worded your original statement made it seem like you were talking about a single combiner, not about the entirety of their collection. When looked at that way, I will agree that some fans will spend that much.

I will also stand by my supposition that if all fans were willing to spend that much, there would be no need for third party companies in the first place. Hasbro would produce a lot more of such products themselves, and happily take our money. But the people willing to spend that much are a niche market. (For example, there's no way I could spend that much. I have to pick and choose my third party purchases carefully.) If Hasbro, as such a large company, catered to such a small customer base they would be out of business in no time.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Your hoping and assuming each HasTak MP Constructicon would be Voyager scale, That's why your price is higher than mine.

I'm guessing and wanting each HasTak MP Constructicon will be Deluxe scale, Times 6 team members that form Devastator. This is why my price is much lower than yours.

Has there yet been a Deluxe sized Masterpiece scale figure? Would anyone want such a small figure with such complex engineering? (See the disaster that was Universe Galvatron.) And does Takara not have a history with the current Masterpiece line of scaling motor vehicle based ones to match each other in vehicle mode?

As it is, Devastator will have some issues on that front... While not as outrageous as some of the combiners, the Constructicons are not quite right together scale wise when they are all the same size, and even as Voyagers, some will be smaller then should be next to the Autobot cars. But even though there are some unavoidable scale issues anyway, I cannot see Takara compounding them by making them even smaller.

Of course, I could be wrong. I don't have the vast certainty and apparent inside knowledge about the designe process at Takara that you wield. The only way I can know for sure is if these ever get made. Until then, it is all a rather arbitrary and pointless argument based entirely on supposition, is it not?

And again, remind me why we are having this discussion in this, a thread with nothing to do with Masterpiece combiners?

Yotsuyasan wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:Your hoping and assuming each HasTak MP Constructicon would be Voyager scale, That's why your price is higher than mine.

I'm guessing and wanting each HasTak MP Constructicon will be Deluxe scale, Times 6 team members that form Devastator. This is why my price is much lower than yours.

Has there yet been a Deluxe sized Masterpiece scale figure? Would anyone want such a small figure with such complex engineering? (See the disaster that was Universe Galvatron.) And does Takara not have a history with the current Masterpiece line of scaling motor vehicle based ones to match each other in vehicle mode?

As it is, Devastator will have some issues on that front... While not as outrageous as some of the combiners, the Constructicons are not quite right together scale wise when they are all the same size, and even as Voyagers, some will be smaller then should be next to the Autobot cars. But even though there are some unavoidable scale issues anyway, I cannot see Takara compounding them by making them even smaller.

Of course, I could be wrong. I don't have the vast certainty and apparent inside knowledge about the designe process at Takara that you wield. The only way I can know for sure is if these ever get made. Until then, it is all a rather arbitrary and pointless argument based entirely on supposition, is it not?

And again, remind me why we are having this discussion in this, a thread with nothing to do with Masterpiece combiners?

HasTak MP Bumblebee is Deluxe scale toy, With a robot mode barely 5 inches tall.

Those 1980's TF G-1 Combiners team members barely got 1-d personas. With barely a few sentences of dialogue. MP TF toys of this scale and price need fully developed fleshed out personas,non-obsecure easily recongnizable,names rembered to sell decent in stores and sites. That's why i'm guessing the MP HasTak limbs bots will be deluxes while the team leader is Voyager scale. With MP Constructicons all being deluxes.

HasTak was willing to go a bigger scale with the MP TF Cars-bots because they toys received more persona in the fiction.

Hasbro in america and world wide is having a hard time trying to convince USA Retailers to sell these MP TF toys. TRU in america gets such low volume they are hard to find. It goes without saying, making HasTak MP TF combiners super gigantic like 3rd parties do. Will result in Hasbro not being able to convince it's world wide reatailers to sell these MP TF Combiners. The smaller they are,the more stores will stock them.

Takara can't afford to bite the bullet and exclusively sell the gigantic MP TF Combiners only in Japan. Most of those recent Exclusive TF toy lines Hasbro didn't want failed in japan. TF Go and alternity are recent examples.

Eh, unless someone else makes a point worth replying to, I'm done. You and I are talking in circles. Besides which:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Yotsuyasan wrote:And again, remind me why we are having this discussion in this, a thread with nothing to do with Masterpiece combiners?

(No comment related to this question.)

So I may have more to say when the topic returns to what it is actually supposed to be about. (Strange that you'd take so off topic a thread of your own creation.)

Yotsuyasan wrote:Eh, unless someone else makes a point worth replying to, I'm done. You and I are talking in circles. Besides which:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

Yotsuyasan wrote:And again, remind me why we are having this discussion in this, a thread with nothing to do with Masterpiece combiners?

(No comment related to this question.)

So I may have more to say when the topic returns to what it is actually supposed to be about. (Strange that you'd take so off topic a thread of your own creation.)

I wasn't taking the thread off topic like you blatantly Insinuated I was doing.

This thread is about comparing 3rd party combiners to HasTak 2015 combiners. Discussing 3rd party combiners prices compared to HasTak combiners prices is more than on topic discussion for this thread.

Think you really have to love-love those G-1 Combiners in order to spend 3rd party $4000 plus prices on trying to buy all of them. Quite frankly I don't love them that much. I'd rather buy and settler for the HasTak 2015 combiners, buy Six teams for $85 each and still come under what TFC charges for one $600 combiner team.

I wouldn't mind an MP style quality for any potential Hasbro/Tomy Devastator. Making the size as that to the recent ones like Lambor would be okay for me. Bet it might cost less as Hasbro/Tomy can offset the costs.

And Hasbro/Tomy does not have the luxury of following "safety" standards. These really is a ball and chain that severely limits the design process. 3rd party no doubt have that luxury of ignoring it (of course, nearly all who buy their products are adults(?))

In the end its the price. As I mentioned before, I'd kill for FP combiners like their not Menasor but reality bites at times. If you've got the spare disposable income then go for it. I kinda envy guys like Yotsuyasan who can score these 3rd party modern updates.

Hold up - where are these assumptions of deluxe and voyager sizes coming from? Why are we applying Classics sizing terminology to a line that has its own scale???

It seems the scale Takara cares about most is G1 cartoon robot-modes. While they do also care about vehicle-mode scale accuracy, we have seen that they are willing to sacrifice this if it means the 'bots will line up correctly on the cartoon scale chart. MP Bumblebee is most certainly evidence of this.

That means that if (big if) we see MP Constructicons, we should be working under the assumption they'll be about 8 1/2 to 9 inches tall in robot-mode, about the same as MP Starscream and Soundwave.



Whether we see Devastator as part of Combiner Wars is another question. Can they engineer him to be a scramble city-type combiner with interchangeable limbs? Will the team be 5 (with 1 voyager as torso) or 6 (with 2 deluxes forming the torso)? We don't know. But what we do know is that MP scale is its own thing... what the heck are we discussing it here for?

To address the question posed in this thread's title (I haven't really read much of the comments, but I see you folks are having another lovely strange argument), I honestly see things in Hasbro's Superion prototype that I like better than TFC's Uranos (which I own, in addition to the 'Wings of Uranos' add-on kit). Uranos just didn't come together for me as well as I'd hoped. The individual bot and plane modes are definitely decent, but the combined mode just doesn't quite scream Superion to me and is actually kinda bland and generic looking (too much white or something I think and maybe a bit too blocky in the limbs etc.). The Hasbro version really nailed certain qualities and details that Uranos lacked, particularly the chest. The plane modes look decent to me (although as a friend pointed out to me, it kinda sucks that after all these years they're still tucking bots under airplanes like that and Silverbolt looks like he's got a recolored G1 Soundwave attached under his rear end) and the bot modes, even the helicopter figure, absolutely resemble what I picture in my head when I think of the Aerialbots. The combined mode looks OK, though not perfect but there's enough there to like about it and the Scramble City gimmick intrigues me, particularly since I'm a sucker for doing oddball combinations (I've done some strange **** with FP's not-Combaticons and their parts as well as with their Superion add-on kit) so the prospect of not only Scramble City, but also repainted/unique limb-bots and 'leaders' like the artwork they showed of Optimus combined with recolored bits of a Bruticus and some 'Autobot Stunticons' really excites me.

I'm less impressed with Hasbro's Menasor, but I do like the individual bot and vehicle modes quite a bit (and yes, I'm over the fact that Wildrider became a truck; change doesn't bother me that much, after all, I'm the guy who grew up on G1, LOVES Beast Wars and loves all things WfC/FoC). I'm hoping something can be done with its torso mode though to make it fill out more. It's way too wide and way too short vertically which completely jacks up the proportions of the thing. Other than that, it looks solid and actually uses the vehicles as legs unlike FP's. Now that's not to say that FP's isn't cool. I wouldn't own 2 sets of their not-Stunticons if I didn't like them, but they're far from perfect. 3 out of 5 have truly badass alt modes that you just can't argue with (not-Breakdown, not-Deadend and not-Wildrider; sorry not-Dragstrip, you suck and sorry not-Motormaster, your front wheels don't plug into your front end and just flop about).

So TL;DR, I like both. I will own both. I already have the 3rd party ones and I'll be buying Takara's as well. I will likely buy multiples of Takara's (not including repaints, which I shall also buy) just to do weird Scramble City style combinations and I'll have fun. My not-Superion and not-Menasor are OK display pieces, but they are both way too fidgety to even want to mess with on a regular basis (and those damn leg panels on not-Wildrider **** HURT!)

So just read RID 33 and the the combiners Hasbro will make is probably going to be

Superion
Menasor
Monstructor
Prowlastator

mooncake623 wrote:So just read RID 33 and the the combiners Hasbro will make is probably going to be

Superion
Menasor
Monstructor
Prowlastator

Don't think Monstructor or Devastator will be high on the 2015 list right now. Monstructor is just not that popular as the others. While Devastor does not fit in with the Four Deluxes and One Voyager theme that the Combiners Wars has going on.

Heavily guessing 2015 Combiners wars wave 3 will be The Protectobots-Defensor. Since HasTak created that rescue helicoper for Superion. That will get used for Protectobots Blades.

Speculating 2015 Combiners wave 4 will be Bruticus or Predaking.

Thinking, If HasTak does create a Combiners wars Devastator and Monstructor then it's going to be for the 2016 year. Doubtful that HasTak will make the Energon Devastator blunder again by doing a Five member team. If HasTak does it, Guessing it will be Six deluxes.

Hoping the 2015-2016 Combiners wars waves 5, 6 , 7 and 8 are Computron, Abonimus, Predaking or Bruticus, Piranaking, and Dinobots or Monstructor.

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

mooncake623 wrote:So just read RID 33 and the the combiners Hasbro will make is probably going to be

Superion
Menasor
Monstructor
Prowlastator

Don't think Monstructor or Devastator will be high on the 2015 list right now. Monstructor is just not that popular as the others. While Devastor does not fit in with the Four Deluxes and One Voyager theme that the Combiners Wars has going on.

Heavily guessing 2015 Combiners wars wave 3 will be The Protectobots-Defensor. Since HasTak created that rescue helicoper for Superion. That will get used for Protectobots Blades.

Speculating 2015 Combiners wave 4 will be Bruticus or Predaking.

Thinking, If HasTak does create a Combiners wars Devastator and Monstructor then it's going to be for the 2016 year. Doubtful that HasTak will make the Energon Devastator blunder again by doing a Five member team. If HasTak does it, Guessing it will be Six deluxes.

Hoping the 2015-2016 Combiners wars waves 5, 6 , 7 and 8 are Computron, Abonimus, Predaking or Bruticus, Piranaking, and Dinobots or Monstructor.

You can believe whatever you want but. You heard it hear first.

If I'm wrong... eh whatever.

Toys are typically aimed at kids, so .... how popular is Menasor or Superion among boys aged 7-12? I''' bet they don't have very strong associations witht hem.

If those guys are in the comics it's entirely possible to see them in toy form. Although it's entirely possible that Defensor will come around too. And let's not forget the Optimus Prime combiner art that was shown too.

mooncake623 wrote:

Tsutsukakushi wrote:

mooncake623 wrote:So just read RID 33 and the the combiners Hasbro will make is probably going to be

Superion
Menasor
Monstructor
Prowlastator

Don't think Monstructor or Devastator will be high on the 2015 list right now. Monstructor is just not that popular as the others. While Devastor does not fit in with the Four Deluxes and One Voyager theme that the Combiners Wars has going on.

Heavily guessing 2015 Combiners wars wave 3 will be The Protectobots-Defensor. Since HasTak created that rescue helicoper for Superion. That will get used for Protectobots Blades.

Speculating 2015 Combiners wave 4 will be Bruticus or Predaking.

Thinking, If HasTak does create a Combiners wars Devastator and Monstructor then it's going to be for the 2016 year. Doubtful that HasTak will make the Energon Devastator blunder again by doing a Five member team. If HasTak does it, Guessing it will be Six deluxes.

Hoping the 2015-2016 Combiners wars waves 5, 6 , 7 and 8 are Computron, Abonimus, Predaking or Bruticus, Piranaking, and Dinobots or Monstructor.

You can believe whatever you want but. You heard it hear first.

If I'm wrong... eh whatever.

Their is a reason why CW Superion has that Rescue helicopter. It's because HasTak plans to use it for CW Wave 3 or wave 4 Blades Defensor.

Highly doubt Prowlvastator or Monstructor are getting released before CW Defensor, CW Bruticus, CW Predaking and CW Piranaking.

The combiner war story line just started.... I bet in the beginning there will be certain combiners in the spotlight, but there will be a twist in the plot and some combiner swill show up out of the blue.

Could we see another Bruticus even though foc Bruticus was just last year?

warzon3 wrote:Could we see another Bruticus even though foc Bruticus was just last year?

SDCC and the retail FOC Bruticus was released in 2012, not last year.

almost Three years is a long time. Think Bruticus is popular enough to warrant new sculpts in Combiners wars in 2015.

I'm more inclined to go with comic-based speculation than random speculation. But that's just me.

Who the aych-ee-double-hockey-stick is Prowlastator? TFWiki doesn't even have an entry?

Based on Hasbro tying a bunch of stuff to the comics, I find this speculation plausible. It will certainly be interesting to watch!

Agamemnon wrote:Who the aych-ee-double-hockey-stick is Prowlastator? TFWiki doesn't even have an entry?

Based on Hasbro tying a bunch of stuff to the comics, I find this speculation plausible. It will certainly be interesting to watch!

Prowl+ Devasator you don't read the comics Aggie?