The Energon Pub

[Rodimus Prime]

I get mass displacement when it comes to things disappearing, such as Megatron's size and weight when he turns into a gun and Prime's trailer when he transforms. But I always thought twice about the gestalt example you mentioned. That they get bigger than the sum of their parts when they combine. Does that mean their individual modes are their shrunk versions, like Megatron's gun mode, and when they combine they release their full size and weight?

[AllNewSuperRobot]

How I always understood it was, using the Constructicons as example, Individually they are all their default size and mass. When they combine, Devastator achieves his own default size and mass through that transformation.

[Rodimus Prime]

How I always understood it was, using the Constructicons as example, Individually they are all their default size and mass. When they combine, Devastator achieves his own default size and mass through that transformation.

The increase in size I can understand. But the increase in mass? Do they draw in matter from around them when they combine to bulk them up? Extra mass can't be created out of nothing. Unless somehow they achieved anti-matter conversion, which I guess might be possible, since the Constructicons were created by Shockwave (a mad genius if there ever was one), and the gestalt technology was then stolen and replicated by Wheeljack, who's not a complete imbecile either.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

The additional mass is that of Devastator, in robot mode. Again their science is beyond ours and that's something to always bear in mind. Our scientific absolutes don't really apply to a species that can (A) assume other forms at will and (B) assume any sized form or object, From Targetmaster to Planet Bot.

[ZeroWolf]

I'm neither here or there on mass displacement, I just accept it as the way things work in whatever fiction it's depicted in. Though, having said that I love the theory that it's linked to a extra dimensional space thats used as an explanation for the weapons that the tfs in victory summon from no where (and to where primes trailer goes etc). It's always made me think to vector traps from the zone of the enders game series.

[Yankee0]

There is one thing that has always bothered me; what happens to Prime's trailer when he dies in robot mode?

Does it just remain in limbo somewhere, with Roller doing doughnuts of despair until he burns out? Or is it so linked with Prime that the trailer spontaneously combusts wherever it is when he dies?

[Rodimus Prime]

I guess the extra-dimensional space explanation will have to do. Mass can't be created from nothing, it has to come from somewhere.

[shajaki]

I think the Dreamwave comics had a good explanation. Don't recall what it was.

I'm willing to delve and argue lots, but this... it was a dumb cartoon from the 80's. I'll let it slide

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Mass can't be created from nothing, it has to come from somewhere.

Advanced Alien Science and Technology. A species that lives for millions of years is bound to excel beyond our outstanding of just about everything. Like I've said before the part people seem to have the most trouble accepting is the "alien".

It's not a Gun that becomes a Robot, it's an advanced Robotic species that takes on the guise of a Gun.

[Rodimus Prime]

the part people seem to have the most trouble accepting is the "alien".

Who are these "people" you're referring to?

[AllNewSuperRobot]

the part people seem to have the most trouble accepting is the "alien".

Who are these "people" you're referring to?

Transformers fans I've randomly encountered and spoken to over the years. Some view Transformers as Gundam, Terminator, Asimo etc Robots that adhere to our rules, laws and understanding. Not that Cybertron is an alien planet. The Cybertronians a super advanced sentient mechanical race with an indeterminate lifespan.

This is why some of the more humanising writing of Transformers tends to grate on me. As I find the fantastic a more appealing escapism than familiarity and the mundane aspects of humanity.

[ZeroWolf]

There is a fine line between alien and them being relatable, remember this franchise is done to sell products, it's not an artistic endeavour to see what life would be like for sentient alien lifeforms (though their origins and ways of reproduction ostensibly vary by interpretation...personally I wouldn't touch the reproduction aspect as that can lead to...weird places)

[AllNewSuperRobot]

You can make the alien relatable. Outside of TV and Movies, Marvel, DC etc do so all the time and their decades of success, proves it can sell. Ever since Beast Wars introduced Sparks, how they are made has given rise to a lot of weird interpretations. I mean they were clearly envisioned to be akin to souls, yet IDWverse went in a strange 'birthing' direction with that.

[ZeroWolf]

No more weird than what furman did in the g2 comic with budding...besides, I don't see any difference to what marvel etc do than what idw do, plus tfs were humanised from the get go by looking humanoid where really robotic lifeforms would find other body types much easier (not to mention they would be suited for the task at hand)

[AllNewSuperRobot]

I never followed G2, Unsure if it will be collected within the Part Work either.

There is a difference between giving them human-like personalities and giving them Psychiatrists, Screen Plays, nonsensical OCD etc

There have several different variants of TF bodies created over the years.. They just don't tend to be the rotating "popular" cast most writers stick with. Those variants have often been depicted on planets with varied ecosystems EG Water worlds etc Again, these aren't shown much. The creativity of many Transformers series only ever seems to go so far.

[ZeroWolf]

Okay another angle, do you like the movie designs for the cast? As that's as close as you'll get to tfs looking like sentient humanoid robotic alien lifeforms. Now as for things like screen writers therapists and the like, why wouldn't they have these things (and in thunder crackers case it could be argued that it's exposure to earth that made him want to do that.. despite the fact that movies existed on cybertron, and that skull grin turned into a movie star in the original comic). Now the thing I meant about the humanoid forms thing is that an advanced robotic lifeform would certainly not be humanoid at all, they are humanoid for our benefit.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Bayformers aesthetic is over-designed and hideous. That's as close as some designer thought they could get to "real life" Transformers. I imagine the brief didn't extend beyond that IE Devastator balls and Bumblebee "urine"

Why would they have human things? Because some writers are too lazy to explore the concept and push the familiar instead.

It comes down to this: by the time our race is at least a million years old, they should be far beyond our contrivances of today. The Transformers are millions of years old. They should be equally beyond us and our understanding of life, science, psychology etc It shows a lack of creativity and common sense from writers to think otherwise.

[ZeroWolf]

Who says they should be beyond us? We only have our selves for comparison. Look at all sf media and you'll find it there as well, we can try and think what alien life would be like, what level socially they would operate etc but any ones guess is as good as the next. My point on the movies is that is what the designer thought alien robots would look like, I mean why would they be designed to look like toys as for devy's low hanging fruit, well unfortunately Mr bay had to finish writing the movie due to the writer's strike that was on at the time. That is why you don't let him make the story.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

Honestly, if a race whose longevity extends into the millions (maybe more) is at the same level intellectually as a race with a collective history of 10-100,000 years.. Something is wrong and Darwin would be spinning in his grave at such a reality.

Writer's Strike or no, there is no such excuse for Bumblebee urine in the first film. I doubt "alien" was even a word in the brief...

[ZeroWolf]

Don't confuse script with "design" it's possible that cap could of been added after that scene had been dreamt of but look at the faces and they are alien, especially the designs of the cons, remember the outrage when megs was leaked?

Also we're talking about a fictional species...science can only speculate what a species that old would be like, and guess what? We've yet to encounter anything! Thus it remains science fiction which means it's all down to interpretation. So if the writers want to say that the tfs had developed motion pictures, then so be. This is one string of making them relatable. I mean no one wants to see them doing nothing but fighting all the time, that would be boring...

[AllNewSuperRobot]

This is a nice little segue into a potentially hot topic, that I have encountered already.

What's The Problem with Change?

G1... To GeeWun. What happened to Transformers as a series that after 30+ years, it's first iteration bears such a stranglehold over it? A lack of creative vision and/or innovation? Or is the nostalgia of the first fanbase the problem? Or is it a problem at all??

[ZeroWolf]

Nostalgia. Oh and a way to keep trademarks and copyrights, you know, all that jazz. That's not to say we don't get different things, but it's different in degrees. I'd argue that Animated was one of the best in terms of being different than G1 (it may of reused names but it changed several of the characters) though it's art style put off a lot of fans. You could tell the creators had a lot of love for the whole franchise with all the cameos and references.

[AllNewSuperRobot]

I didn't enjoy the first season or so of Animated (the Earth-based bit, shocking I know )When it started to do it's own thing I liked it more. Beast Wars also used about the right amount of love of G1, without being shackled to it. Megatron being the only specific namedrop, until the Starscream and "Unicron" cameos of latter Season one.

I liked The Rebirth for the way it moved Sunbow further into the universe. I liked Beast Machines' ending for it's implications about the future of the Transformers... And then we were thrown back to the beginning once more with Car Robots, Unicron Trilogy, Prime etc etc

Nostalgia googles aside, as let's face it, Sunbow and the original series toys weren't that great in hindsight. Do G1 fans really not want to see where Transformers could go, if it were untethered from G1?

[ZeroWolf]

Ah but there in lies the rub, G1 fans want there favourite characters/season casts/all of them, recreated with modern engineering. This is what led a filler line (classics) to becoming generations. I've always said that the G1 toon wasn't all that, it has its place as the first but it's not the end all be all.

[Acesmcgee]

So personally, I don't mind the G1 love as it's allowing me to collect and recollect toys I loved in new forms. I also don't see a problem with new designs or bots coming in, I loved the movies and Beast Wars for the changes and re-imagining of older concepts, I also don't have issues with names being re-used. By that I equate it to there being more than 1 Thomas on Earth, why can't robots do the same. Prowl who's alt-mode is a car type, then there is a Prowl down the lane who forms into a data console. Not the same guy so, why not, and what is his story, it could be fun to learn. As much as I love the origin of this brand for me, I'm not adverse to expansion, revision, and re-imagining. That just means there is the possibility for me to find a character I may enjoy beyond the 'basics'.