The Energon Pub

DoctorZero986 wrote:Agreed. Honestly, the only things I didn't like about it were the robot heaven scene, some of the adult humor was just stupid, and the twins. I honestly thought it was way better than the first because I felt it was more like the G1 universe with Megatron actually beating Starscream up for failing him or trying to take command of the Decepticons, and them trying to obtain energon and all.

Regarding the Robot Heaven: The consensus around my area is that the Primes are just standing around in realtime prehistoric Earth, before they entomb themselves, projecting an image through, rather than forward in time, to Sams head.

The idea here is that Sam is unconcious, not dead, and even that the message is sent to him at another time in is life (i.e: whilst sleeping as a small child or old man)to get around any 'blockages' caused by the Trauma of the battle in Egypt interrupting the message/communicade during the actual battle (since Sam has a tendency to pretend things aren't happening and try to block them out when he's under stress, as seen with his interaction with Mikaela in the library).
He then relays the full message/experience to his concious self whilst passing from KOd to revived in the Egyptian battle sequence.Each of the Primes can work on a seperate part of his mind, enthralling him enough to cause him to go as far as present himself in front of them to see more.

The Primes carry on to entomb themselves BECAUSE they now know of Sam and the Sacrifice of Jetfire (who has been sleeping for a very long time and potentially chatting with the Primes too, or else they can snake the knowledge from Sams head even tho it happens after the communicade).

Psychobabble, yes, but it might improve your idea of the scene.

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:

DoctorZero986 wrote:Agreed. Honestly, the only things I didn't like about it were the robot heaven scene, some of the adult humor was just stupid, and the twins. I honestly thought it was way better than the first because I felt it was more like the G1 universe with Megatron actually beating Starscream up for failing him or trying to take command of the Decepticons, and them trying to obtain energon and all.

Regarding the Robot Heaven: The consensus around my area is that the Primes are just standing around in realtime prehistoric Earth, before they entomb themselves, projecting an image through, rather than forward in time, to Sams head.

The idea here is that Sam is unconcious, not dead, and even that the message is sent to him at another time in is life (i.e: whilst sleeping as a small child or old man)to get around any 'blockages' caused by the Trauma of the battle in Egypt interrupting the message/communicade during the actual battle (since Sam has a tendency to pretend things aren't happening and try to block them out when he's under stress, as seen with his interaction with Mikaela in the library).
He then relays the full message/experience to his concious self whilst passing from KOd to revived in the Egyptian battle sequence.Each of the Primes can work on a seperate part of his mind, enthralling him enough to cause him to go as far as present himself in front of them to see more.

The Primes carry on to entomb themselves BECAUSE they now know of Sam and the Sacrifice of Jetfire (who has been sleeping for a very long time and potentially chatting with the Primes too, or else they can snake the knowledge from Sams head even tho it happens after the communicade).

Psychobabble, yes, but it might improve your idea of the scene.

I'm more in the school of thought that Sam saw the Primes during his near death experience because a Spark is a "soul by any other name." It was established that the AllSpark can pretty much frak reality, laws of physics, and other such stuff with it's power and can create life from nothing. Who's to say a Movieverse Spark isn't a soul just like that of a human's, and that Transformers can go to literal heaven?

But that is a good theory too Smoke.

Capt.Failure wrote:

Autobot Smoketreader wrote:

DoctorZero986 wrote:Agreed. Honestly, the only things I didn't like about it were the robot heaven scene, some of the adult humor was just stupid, and the twins. I honestly thought it was way better than the first because I felt it was more like the G1 universe with Megatron actually beating Starscream up for failing him or trying to take command of the Decepticons, and them trying to obtain energon and all.

Regarding the Robot Heaven: The consensus around my area is that the Primes are just standing around in realtime prehistoric Earth, before they entomb themselves, projecting an image through, rather than forward in time, to Sams head.

The idea here is that Sam is unconcious, not dead, and even that the message is sent to him at another time in is life (i.e: whilst sleeping as a small child or old man)to get around any 'blockages' caused by the Trauma of the battle in Egypt interrupting the message/communicade during the actual battle (since Sam has a tendency to pretend things aren't happening and try to block them out when he's under stress, as seen with his interaction with Mikaela in the library).
He then relays the full message/experience to his concious self whilst passing from KOd to revived in the Egyptian battle sequence.Each of the Primes can work on a seperate part of his mind, enthralling him enough to cause him to go as far as present himself in front of them to see more.

The Primes carry on to entomb themselves BECAUSE they now know of Sam and the Sacrifice of Jetfire (who has been sleeping for a very long time and potentially chatting with the Primes too, or else they can snake the knowledge from Sams head even tho it happens after the communicade).

Psychobabble, yes, but it might improve your idea of the scene.

I'm more in the school of thought that Sam saw the Primes during his near death experience because a Spark is a "soul by any other name." It was established that the AllSpark can pretty much frak reality, laws of physics, and other such stuff with it's power and can create life from nothing. Who's to say a Movieverse Spark isn't a soul just like that of a human's, and that Transformers can go to literal heaven?

But that is a good theory too Smoke.

The Well of Allsparks is where TF sparks go when they have been extinguished from reality. I like to think of it as a program or like the internet. A web of thousands and thousands of sparks connected together that actually forms the essence surrounding the Allspark and maybe even in Primus's spark.

\

Capt.Failure wrote:\

I'm more in the school of thought that Sam saw the Primes during his near death experience because a Spark is a "soul by any other name." It was established that the AllSpark can pretty much frak reality, laws of physics, and other such stuff with it's power and can create life from nothing. Who's to say a Movieverse Spark isn't a soul just like that of a human's, and that Transformers can go to literal heaven?

But that is a good theory too Smoke.

Thanks!

I'm a big fan of the Well of Sparks that Sly mentions, because it means dead TFs can return in any series and that the Prime ZombieBots are still in existence too (regardless of what the shell is doing).

I think that if we had a way to boil it all down mathematically, Tf Sparks and Human (or Earthling, covering more Earth life forms than just humans) Souls would turn out to have a lot of similarities.

Capt.Failure wrote:I'm more in the school of thought that Sam saw the Primes during his near death experience because a Spark is a "soul by any other name." It was established that the AllSpark can pretty much frak reality, laws of physics, and other such stuff with it's power and can create life from nothing. Who's to say a Movieverse Spark isn't a soul just like that of a human's, and that Transformers can go to literal heaven?

But that is a good theory too Smoke.

The problem, though, is that the Spark has a visible, physical form. Even in the moveverse, mind you; we see Optimus's spark in the first movie, and we see Jetfire's and the Fallen's sparks in ROTF. the human soul, as has been recounted in numerous philosophical debates, has no physical, quantifiable form and many people hold the belief that it doesn't even exist.

While the Spark is very clearly a Transformer's soul (Among a few other things) it is not the same thing as a human soul.

Shadowman wrote:

Capt.Failure wrote:I'm more in the school of thought that Sam saw the Primes during his near death experience because a Spark is a "soul by any other name." It was established that the AllSpark can pretty much frak reality, laws of physics, and other such stuff with it's power and can create life from nothing. Who's to say a Movieverse Spark isn't a soul just like that of a human's, and that Transformers can go to literal heaven?

But that is a good theory too Smoke.

The problem, though, is that the Spark has a visible, physical form. Even in the moveverse, mind you; we see Optimus's spark in the first movie, and we see Jetfire's and the Fallen's sparks in ROTF. the human soul, as has been recounted in numerous philosophical debates, has no physical, quantifiable form and many people hold the belief that it doesn't even exist.

While the Spark is very clearly a Transformer's soul (Among a few other things) it is not the same thing as a human soul.

It's like their heart, but what the spark has inside it is what matters. Whatever is in that spark, the thing that keeps it pumping oil and energon through the TF's tubes is another mystery in itself.

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:
The problem, though, is that the Spark has a visible, physical form. Even in the moveverse, mind you; we see Optimus's spark in the first movie, and we see Jetfire's and the Fallen's sparks in ROTF. the human soul, as has been recounted in numerous philosophical debates, has no physical, quantifiable form and many people hold the belief that it doesn't even exist.

While the Spark is very clearly a Transformer's soul (Among a few other things) it is not the same thing as a human soul.

It's like their heart, but what the spark has inside it is what matters. Whatever is in that spark, the thing that keeps it pumping oil and energon through the TF's tubes is another mystery in itself.

But could it not be argued in the philosophical sense that all living things do have soul, whether a life form is flesh and blood or mechanical. Just because you can see a Spark, doesn't mean that it's not a soul. No one has ever seen a soul, so does that make it not physical? Does that mean it doesn't exist?

I like the analogy of a heart - our souls are contained within our bodies and when it stops, we no longer are living. A Spark is a heart. When it goes out, the Transformer is no longer alive. It might not manifest itself the same way, but it's still the Transformer version of a soul.

Whew! This is deep...

Watch "Ancient Aliens" - I think it's on the History Channel. Then go back and watch ROTF. I see where a lot of the research for the story came from!

SlyTF1 wrote:It's like their heart, but what the spark has inside it is what matters. Whatever is in that spark, the thing that keeps it pumping oil and energon through the TF's tubes is another mystery in itself.

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say it's some kind of automated pump, not unlike the human heart. The Spark is more like a combination of various parts of the brain and brain stem.

Stormer wrote:

SlyTF1 wrote:

Shadowman wrote:
The problem, though, is that the Spark has a visible, physical form. Even in the moveverse, mind you; we see Optimus's spark in the first movie, and we see Jetfire's and the Fallen's sparks in ROTF. the human soul, as has been recounted in numerous philosophical debates, has no physical, quantifiable form and many people hold the belief that it doesn't even exist.

While the Spark is very clearly a Transformer's soul (Among a few other things) it is not the same thing as a human soul.

It's like their heart, but what the spark has inside it is what matters. Whatever is in that spark, the thing that keeps it pumping oil and energon through the TF's tubes is another mystery in itself.

But could it not be argued in the philosophical sense that all living things do have soul, whether a life form is flesh and blood or mechanical. Just because you can see a Spark, doesn't mean that it's not a soul. No one has ever seen a soul, so does that make it not physical? Does that mean it doesn't exist?

I like the analogy of a heart - our souls are contained within our bodies and when it stops, we no longer are living. A Spark is a heart. When it goes out, the Transformer is no longer alive. It might not manifest itself the same way, but it's still the Transformer version of a soul.

Whew! This is deep...

Watch "Ancient Aliens" - I think it's on the History Channel. Then go back and watch ROTF. I see where a lot of the research for the story came from!

That's like my favorite show besides TF Animated and Prime!

Stormer wrote:No one has ever seen a soul, so does that make it not physical? Does that mean it doesn't exist?

That's the point! The human soul has no physical form, it can't be measured, it can't be seen, it can't be touched, and that's why many people believe it doesn't even exists. There's no way to prove the human soul exists. The Spark is the opposite, it has real, tangible form, it can be touched, seen and measured. It can be safely removed and implanted in another body.

Stormer wrote:I like the analogy of a heart - our souls are contained within our bodies and when it stops, we no longer are living. A Spark is a heart. When it goes out, the Transformer is no longer alive. It might not manifest itself the same way, but it's still the Transformer version of a soul.

The heart and Spark perform entirely different functions. The Spark contains the mind and "essence" of a Transformer. The heart pumps blood throughout the body. The Spark would be closer to the brain and brain stem, you can't live without those either.

You've also gotten the idea of a soul entirely wrong. Every philosophy in existence that believes in a soul also believes it's immortal, when the body dies the soul lives on. If it exists.

After watching ROTF again--with subtitles--I noticed when Sam (Shia) is spouting nonsense in his "mental breakdown" he says "Sentinel Prime", which leads me to believe there is little doubt that those who are saying that's the bot in the Dark of the Moon trailer are correct, as much as I wish it were Alpha Trion.

amtm wrote:After watching ROTF again--with subtitles--I noticed when Sam (Shia) is spouting nonsense in his "mental breakdown" he says "Sentinel Prime", which leads me to believe there is little doubt that those who are saying that's the bot in the Dark of the Moon trailer are correct, as much as I wish it were Alpha Trion.

Yeah, he mentions the "Sentinel Prime expedition." Adds credit to the people who think it's Sentinel Prime on the moon, but it's all just conjecture and assumptions until we see the movie.

Shadowman wrote:

Stormer wrote:No one has ever seen a soul, so does that make it not physical? Does that mean it doesn't exist?

That's the point! The human soul has no physical form, it can't be measured, it can't be seen, it can't be touched, and that's why many people believe it doesn't even exists. There's no way to prove the human soul exists. The Spark is the opposite, it has real, tangible form, it can be touched, seen and measured. It can be safely removed and implanted in another body.

Stormer wrote:I like the analogy of a heart - our souls are contained within our bodies and when it stops, we no longer are living. A Spark is a heart. When it goes out, the Transformer is no longer alive. It might not manifest itself the same way, but it's still the Transformer version of a soul.

The heart and Spark perform entirely different functions. The Spark contains the mind and "essence" of a Transformer. The heart pumps blood throughout the body. The Spark would be closer to the brain and brain stem, you can't live without those either.

You've also gotten the idea of a soul entirely wrong. Every philosophy in existence that believes in a soul also believes it's immortal, when the body dies the soul lives on. If it exists.

So, just because a human soul isn't tangible, makes it non-existant? I don't buy that. There lots of things in this universe that can't be seen, yet we know they exist - scientific-wise as well as philosophically. Some doctors say that a body is lighter once it dies - could that account for the soul leaving the body? If you don't want to believe that souls exist, that's fine, I won't try to convince you different. And, yes, I think that a soul is immortal - all you did there was to put words there that I hadn't written, put in a thought that I didn't put there but you expanded upon. Just as a Spark finds it's way back to the AllSpark (I guess depending on what continuity you want to follow), there's lots of religions that believe the soul finds it's way back to a living being. There's a correlation between two philosophies if you want to see it, or not. It's up to you. It's our imaginations that are working here, and that's what's cool. It doesn't matter otherwise. Transformers don't exist. Or, maybe they do - whether it be within the imagination (something else you can't see, but you know it's there), or way out there in the Universe somewhere. They can have a "soul" or not. Just because you can argue one way and me another doesn't make it any more so one way or the other. It's just kinda fun to bounce some ideas off one another. It isn't something that HAS to be literal.

Have some fun with it.

@ Stormer and Shadowman, one thing I never understood in the first two movies was how removing or destroying the heads of some Transformers killed them (Bonecrusher, Demolishor, Grindor, etc.), but the spark, which was supposed to be their life force, was located in their chest. (And of course, Frenzy didn't die the first time he lost his head, but then the second time, apparently getting it cut in half killed him, though he still spoke for a second after it was cut in half.) There was just no explanation of why a Transformer needed its head as much as its spark the way a human needs its brain as much as its heart. And the inconsistency with Frenzy doesn't help the case for the writers. Anyway just one of the things that makes the movies so unsatisfying, but would be nice if they'd make some effort to explain that kind of stuff.

Stormer wrote:So, just because a human soul isn't tangible, makes it non-existant? I don't buy that. There lots of things in this universe that can't be seen, yet we know they exist - scientific-wise as well as philosophically.

But here's the problem: There is no proof whatsoever that a soul exists. We can prove a lot of things; we can prove air is there, we can prove Alpha Centauri is there, we can prove the core of Earth is a spinning ball of molten metal. But there's nothing to prove a soul exists.

Stormer wrote:Some doctors say that a body is lighter once it dies - could that account for the soul leaving the body?

Wrong; it's because the body tightens due to rigor mortis. Fun fact: relaxing your body makes it heavier, but when everything tightens up it becomes lighter.

Stormer wrote:Have some fun with it.

I will just as soon as people stop being wrong about things.

amtm wrote:@ Stormer and Shadowman, one thing I never understood in the first two movies was how removing or destroying the heads of some Transformers killed them (Bonecrusher, Demolishor, Grindor, etc.), but the spark, which was supposed to be their life force, was located in their chest. (And of course, Frenzy didn't die the first time he lost his head, but then the second time, apparently getting it cut in half killed him, though he still spoke for a second after it was cut in half.) There was just no explanation of why a Transformer needed its head as much as its spark the way a human needs its brain as much as its heart. And the inconsistency with Frenzy doesn't help the case for the writers. Anyway just one of the things that makes the movies so unsatisfying, but would be nice if they'd make some effort to explain that kind of stuff.

I know, right? Good point! And Jazz was ripped in half and it killed him...

There might be some major component in the head, but that doesn't account for Jazz. Maybe when the Transformer sustains too much damage, they just die, and they all happen to be working on the Chunky Salsa Rule.

I approach the "death from physical trauma" thing with the simple assumption that the various parts in Transformer bodies (fluid pumps, CPUs, etc) can cause death if destroyed. For a living machine like a Transformer such parts would be as vital as any corresponding organ on a flesh and blood creature. Therefor having your head blown off or your fluids drained from being torn in half could be fatal.

As for the continuing Spark debate: Yes I know that we see a physical reposetory for the Sparks in the movies and other Transformers media. I always believed that was due to the physical make up of a Transformer (ie: machinery as opposed to flesh).

Remember, the Spark can contain and transfer knowledge and power (as seen when Optimus merged with Jetfire, which put him above the Fallen in terms of strength). Many philosophies and belief systems say the same about soul or similar forms of spiritual energy (chi, chakra, etc. And not that anime bullcrap either). Perhaps Transformers were simply created in such a way that the their souls are a tangible thing unlike humans.

Man, I only come up with this stuff when starved for caffiene.

Shadowman wrote:I will just as soon as people stop being wrong about things.

Actually, you outta stop thinking about it in terms of right or wrong. You're not right or wrong. You just have a very high opinion of yourself. Once you get over that, I think you won't worry so much about the rest of us being wrong, and just consider instead that people are going to think what they want to and nothing you say - especially the way you look down on those of us without your special talent for being "right" all the time - is going to change that. And that, my dear Shadowman, is a fact of life.

Don't be lonely. Be fun. Come on. I know there's a fun bone in there somewhere...oooooh, wait, I can't see it....

Stormer wrote:Actually, you outta stop thinking about it in terms of right or wrong. You're not right or wrong.

Well, there's you trying to say the soul has a physical, tangible (That means it can be seen, touched, measured, etc) form. Even people who believe in souls believe that no, no it doesn't. Also, I never once said I don't believe in souls.

Stormer wrote:You just have a very high opinion of yourself.

No, I have a very low opinion of myself...but regardless of that, I just happen to be freaking awesome. Nothing you can possibly say can make me less awesome or less right about everything I've ever said forever and ever. Using logic on me is like using bullets on Superman.

Shadowman wrote:

Stormer wrote:Actually, you outta stop thinking about it in terms of right or wrong. You're not right or wrong.

Well, there's you trying to say the soul has a physical, tangible (That means it can be seen, touched, measured, etc) form. Even people who believe in souls believe that no, no it doesn't. Also, I never once said I don't believe in souls.

Stormer wrote:You just have a very high opinion of yourself.

No, I have a very low opinion of myself...but regardless of that, I just happen to be freaking awesome. Nothing you can possibly say can make me less awesome or less right about everything I've ever said forever and ever. Using logic on me is like using bullets on Superman.

Well, then there's you saying souls can't be touched or measured, therefore they don't exist. This is a philosophical idea that is neither right nor wrong - it simply depends on what your own personal experiences or beliefs are - and it's different for everyone.

Okay. You're awesome. You're awesomeness overshadows all that is.

I, however, am not afraid to point out that you're point of view isn't the only one out there. I value all opinions - because it's cause for the rest of us to delve into healthy discussion on something we all enjoy. It's fun to speculate, come up with ideas, make conversation about silly robots that sometimes we take more seriously than we should. Whether there's a basis for scientific fact or not should be a consideration for making the conversation better, not a platform used to squash ideas.

Guys. No offense, but you're reading far too deeply into this. It's not Inception. It's Derpception.

You're all going derper.

Souls, sparks, robot Heaven, real Heaven, whatever, it's a movie about giant robots smashing the crap out of each other with slight religious overtones mixed in here and there.

You'll go batcrap crazy trying to unlock the secrets of a movie that doesn't have any.

Autobot032 wrote:Guys. No offense, but you're reading far too deeply into this. It's not Inception. It's Derpception.

You're all going derper.

Souls, sparks, robot Heaven, real Heaven, whatever, it's a movie about giant robots smashing the crap out of each other with slight religious overtones mixed in here and there.

You'll go batcrap crazy trying to unlock the secrets of a movie that doesn't have any.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! Thanks for stopping me before I go any derper!

I'm already a little batcrap crazy...I'm trying to unlock secrets and Shadowman has the damn keys!

Point taken. I'm going to bed. Sleep well, All!

Stormer wrote:Well, then there's you saying souls can't be touched or measured, therefore they don't exist.

Never once did I say that. I said it has no physical form, I never said I don't think souls exist.

Autobot032 wrote:You'll go batcrap crazy trying to unlock the secrets of a movie that doesn't have any.

Oh it has one. A big one. It's very subtle, layered throughout the movie so thin as to be almost unnoticeable. But once you figure it out, you'll be completely blown away. It unlocks an answer so brilliant, suddenly all of cinema is explained so perfectly that suddenly you'll "get" everything. I won't spoil it, but I'll give you a hint that will help you unlock it yourself:

At the very end, when Prime is giving his final narration, pay close attention to what Mudflap is doing in that same scene.

Defining a soul and then looking for physical evidence of the definition is a big runaround, and can turn out to be a very 'mental' approach.

An alternative option I can think of is to find the soul and then define it.

The Ancient Egyptian Ka and Ba might work as an example for how a Spark might belong partially to the machine, partially to Cybertron and partially 'from-and-to' the Allspark,

The Cube/Allspark appears to be a mechanism (as opposed to machine) created by Aliens who mastered some levels of what Humans can call soul Technology. The root source that created these aliens 'souls/minds/insert their word for it here' before they made the Allspark, which carries over the root source of what makes TF sparks to Cybertron (albeit in a manufactured or refined format), might a derivative of the same root source that created human souls.

There is no proof that a human soul is permanently intangible, as displayed by Ki/Chi/Qi, which the Shaolin at least can utilize nicely,Pregnant Mums with their Babies can also discuss a link/bond/you name it (Which as a male I have no qualifications other than hearsay to apply to said topic).
Empathy, Deja Vu, Telepathy, are all there.People Detect the phenomenon when it happens so the intangability idea is not 100% applicable, tho still valid.