The Energon Pub

Vega wrote:Forcing was probably the wrong word. Hitting people over the head with it is more accurate.

Yes, I can agree with that!

HoosierDaddy wrote:

Vega wrote:I am a Christian. I detest idiot fundies who basically go about preaching 'turn or burn' and all kinds of crap like that. That does nothing but breed hate against Christians, and it is totally against what is said in the Bible. We can't go about forcing people to convert; only God can change someone's heart.

I'm a Christian as well. Grew up Baptist but I'm not going to claim an actual denomination at this time. But your post intrigues me, because I hear this a lot. Especially from atheists. My question is, what do even radical, current day Christians do to FORCE people to convert or believe in their way? Seriously? Do they knock on your door and ask you if you believe in Jesus? If so, is that "forcing" you? Do they have television shows that allow them to preach to a large nation wide audience? If so, is that "forcing" you to believe like them? I just don't know what even radical Christians, do to "force" anything on anybody. Obviously, I'm angered by this because I haven't seen a Christian "force" their beliefs on anybody ever in my life. You want to see "forcing" of beliefs? How about radical Islam. If you don't convert, they will kill you. Period. Even the most radical Christians in this day and age wouldn't even fathom killing you for not converting. Can some radical Christians annoy the holly living crap out of you with their beliefs? Absolutely. Do they "force" you to believe like them? No. That would be radical Islam.

You make an excellent point. Forced conversions seem to be a thing of the past. However, violence and descrimination against people who don't believe in the same God is all too common.

Abortion clinic bombings, for example.

That gentleman who killed his best friend with a shotgun when he found out that said friend was an atheist.

Firing people from their jobs because they don't believe in God.

Descrimination and sometimes lethal violence against homosexuals.

The whole "West Memphis Three" thing.

Granted, the pepetrators of violence are not "forcing a conversion," but they are sending the message that they will violently oppose other belief systems and, if people don't want to be the victims of violence, then all they have to do is accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.

let's not forget the lest 25 years of the northern ireland conflict. catholic and protestants beating the crap out of each other, blowing each other(and alot of other people) up, and barbed wire down the center of streets....

since 2000 the uk has suffered 6 terrorist attacks, 3 from christian groups, 2 from muslim groups, and 1 from a guy annoyed about tax.

and then we have the lesser trouble with fundies attacking scientific method, and burring reality, one might as well start beleiving in the healing power of homeopathy...

Christian, in the Biblical sense rather than the makes-the-headlines sense.

100% belief in the truth of the Bible, understanding that it's not all meant to be taken literally, recognition that faith is not the same thing as religion and does not constitute a political position. For what it's worth, I consider a theocracy - even a Christianised one - to be among the more loathsome forms of government.

Professor Smooth]
You make an excellent point. Forced conversions seem to be a thing of the past. However, violence and descrimination against people who don't believe in the same God is all too common.

Abortion clinic bombings, for example.

That gentleman who killed his best friend with a shotgun when he found out that said friend was an atheist.

Firing people from their jobs because they don't believe in God.

Descrimination and sometimes lethal violence against homosexuals.

The whole "West Memphis Three" thing.

Granted, the pepetrators of violence are not "forcing a conversion," but they are sending the message that they will violently oppose other belief systems and, if people don't want to be the victims of violence, then all they have to do is accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and savior.[/quote]So, you're taking a handful of mentally deranged nutballs and claiming that all Christians are like that? Yet, millions of organized Muslims are purposely going to kill you soley because you are part of the westarn world and are not Muslim. That's ok though, right?

[quote="Tammuz wrote:let's not forget the lest 25 years of the northern ireland conflict. catholic and protestants beating the crap out of each other, blowing each other(and alot of other people) up, and barbed wire down the center of streets....

since 2000 the uk has suffered 6 terrorist attacks, 3 from christian groups, 2 from muslim groups, and 1 from a guy annoyed about tax.

and then we have the lesser trouble with fundies attacking scientific method, and burring reality, one might as well start beleiving in the healing power of homeopathy...

Using the war between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland is a poor example. That is basically a civil war between Christians of differant sects useing their beliefs for an excuse. That IS NOT the same as Islam killing non Islam for not being Islam. If Sunni and Shia have a civil war between themselfs that that would be comparible to Ireland. When Muslims attack other countries in the name of Allah, that isn't even on the same page as what is going on in Ireland.

p.s. what Christian bombing in the UK are you reffering? If they happened in Ireland then once again that is THEIR CIVIL war. Not Christians killing other religions for not being Christian. I know many of you are eductated and it escapes me how this is seemingly so hard for you to comprehend.

you do realise Northern Ireland is part of the UK right?

the 2001 ealing bombing was in ealing(which is part of london) the 2001 london postal sorting office bombing was in london
the 2001 shapard's bush bombing was in shepards bush(once again in london)

london would be in england.

[quote]
Yet, millions of organized Muslims are purposely going to kill you soley because you are part of the westarn world and are not Muslim. That's ok though, right?[/qoute]

how is that different from thousands of christians purposely going to killing people soley because they are opposed to to a unified ireland and aren't christian?

and on what basis do you differentiate the majority of christians from deranged nutballs? they all think their doings god's work, and spreading his message, no?

HoosierDaddy wrote:Using the war between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland is a poor example. That is basically a civil war between Christians of differant sects useing their beliefs for an excuse. That IS NOT the same as Islam killing non Islam for not being Islam. If Sunni and Shia have a civil war between themselfs that that would be comparible to Ireland. When Muslims attack other countries in the name of Allah, that isn't even on the same page as what is going on in Ireland.

In either case you have one group wanting to kill another group based entirely on beliefs. The only difference between the two scenarios that matters is one of scale.

Tammuz wrote:you do realise Northern Ireland is part of the UK right?

Umm, yeah. That was exactly my point. It's not like the Irish are doing suicide bombs in a Asia in the name of God.

the 2001 ealing bombing was in ealing(which is part of london) the 2001 london postal sorting office bombing was in london
the 2001 shapard's bush bombing was in shepards bush(once again in london)

The Ealing Bombing was done by the Real IRA. It wasn't done in the name of God. It was done because they want a united Ireland and they want England to withdraw. You live in the UK, you should know that.

london would be in england.

Thanks for the geography lesson but it is not needed. You don't have to use condecention with me. In case you think I'm just a stupid American, you'll find out, I'm quite capable.

how is that different from thousands of christians purposely going to killing people soley because they are opposed to to a unified ireland and aren't christian?

It's hugely differant because they are using terror tactics because they want Ireland united and they want the English to withdraw. They are fighting for their counrty. When they commit the bombings do they go on TV to "praise" God? They simply want England to withdraw from Northern Ireland so Ireland can become united. Am I condoning terrorism? Hell no! But comparing what's going on in the UK with Muslim terrorists killing you because you won't convert is two differant things.

and on what basis do you differentiate the majority of christians from deranged nutballs?

The same way I differentiate the majority of Muslims from the deranged nutballs. If you kill someone SOLEY because they believe in God differantly then you, they are deranged. Period. Christian, Muslim or otherwise.

they all think their doings god's work, and spreading his message, no?

When you say "they all" I assume you mean that literally as in ALL Christians believe they are spreading the message. In that case yes they do. But that is not terrorism. Unless you consider someone asking you if you know about Jesus, terroism.

Kjell wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote:Using the war between Catholics and Protestants in Ireland is a poor example. That is basically a civil war between Christians of differant sects useing their beliefs for an excuse. That IS NOT the same as Islam killing non Islam for not being Islam. If Sunni and Shia have a civil war between themselfs that that would be comparible to Ireland. When Muslims attack other countries in the name of Allah, that isn't even on the same page as what is going on in Ireland.

In either case you have one group wanting to kill another group based entirely on beliefs. The only difference between the two scenarios that matters is one of scale.

Not true at all. The RIRA wants the English to withdraw from Northern Ireland so Ireland can be united. They are not trying to conquer England and force them into become protestants. Muslim terrorists on the other hand are on a mission to take over and assimilate you and if you do not assimilate, you die. Period. Muslim terrorists want to spread. Irish terrorists want the country. Like I said, I'm not saying it's OK for the RIRA to use terror tactics. They need to be stopped. But to compare Christians to radical Muslim terrorists such as being done in this thread, is ridiculous.

I'm having some difficulty finding any examples of muslims killing people "just because they aren't muslim." Can you provide some evidence?

Professor Smooth wrote:I'm having some difficulty finding any examples of muslims killing people "just because they aren't muslim." Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.

Tammuz wrote:since 2000 the uk has suffered 6 terrorist attacks, 3 from christian groups, 2 from muslim groups, and 1 from a guy annoyed about tax.

that tax one is just such a british thing to do. which tax was he not happy with?

HoosierDaddy wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:I'm having some difficulty finding any examples of muslims killing people "just because they aren't muslim." Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.

9/11 was a political action not a religious one. There are more Muslins in SE Asia than anywhere else in the world, sans the Middle East.

Extremists are the same the whole world over. An extremist Muslim will kill someone for believing different. An extremist Baptist will kill an abortion doctor cause his beliefs arfe different. The inquisition killed anyone not Catholic because they were different, plus their evil spread across the new world. look at any indigenous culture that Catholics came into contact with. They killed and/or converted. There is no difference.

Organized religion is purely evil. The thought that anyone different than you is wrong and must be witnessed to, converted, and/or killed, is surely a flawed religion. ANy yes, that's the top three in a nutshell.

DJDrew&ScoobyDoo wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:I'm having some difficulty finding any examples of muslims killing people "just because they aren't muslim." Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.

9/11 was a political action not a religious one. There are more Muslins in SE Asia than anywhere else in the world, sans the Middle East.

Extremists are the same the whole world over. An extremist Muslim will kill someone for believing different. An extremist Baptist will kill an abortion doctor cause his beliefs arfe different. The inquisition killed anyone not Catholic because they were different, plus their evil spread across the new world. look at any indigenous culture that Catholics came into contact with. They killed and/or converted. There is no difference.

Organized religion is purely evil. The thought that anyone different than you is wrong and must be witnessed to, converted, and/or killed, is surely a flawed religion. ANy yes, that's the top three in a nutshell.

What about the Jews? They didn't do anything wrong.

Shadowman wrote:

DJDrew&ScoobyDoo wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:I'm having some difficulty finding any examples of muslims killing people "just because they aren't muslim." Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.

9/11 was a political action not a religious one. There are more Muslins in SE Asia than anywhere else in the world, sans the Middle East.

Extremists are the same the whole world over. An extremist Muslim will kill someone for believing different. An extremist Baptist will kill an abortion doctor cause his beliefs arfe different. The inquisition killed anyone not Catholic because they were different, plus their evil spread across the new world. look at any indigenous culture that Catholics came into contact with. They killed and/or converted. There is no difference.

Organized religion is purely evil. The thought that anyone different than you is wrong and must be witnessed to, converted, and/or killed, is surely a flawed religion. ANy yes, that's the top three in a nutshell.

What about the Jews? They didn't do anything wrong.

The problem is most Middle Eastern Muslims (and most of the world) works on a nationalist scale, not viewing people as an individual, but more as part of a group, putting the trespasses of the father upon the son.

HoosierDaddy wrote: Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.[/quote]

Not at all. Go ahead and provide me with some evidence of one Muslim person killing another person simply because that person wasn't Muslim.

It shouldn't be too hard, right?

Professor Smooth wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote: Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.

Not at all. Go ahead and provide me with some evidence of one Muslim person killing another person simply because that person wasn't Muslim.

It shouldn't be too hard, right?[/quote]

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_80099512

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/ ... us_rig.php

HoosierDaddy wrote:

Professor Smooth wrote:

HoosierDaddy wrote: Can you provide some evidence?

Please tell me that is sarcasm.

Not at all. Go ahead and provide me with some evidence of one Muslim person killing another person simply because that person wasn't Muslim.

It shouldn't be too hard, right?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... i_80099512

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/ ... us_rig.php[/quote]

Fair enough.

First off, I'll state I do not have a religion I claim. If anything, I lean more towards Paganism; if we were to place labels that is. Any Religion out there to date will have its extremists. They will kill/judge you without thinking twice. Not everyone in that religion will, but there are extremists in every religion. Yes, you have some of your extreme baptists who will bomb abortion clinics because "Its against Gods Will". Or we could always go into some of the Church Burnings down in the Southern US. Or lets look at the past here; Salem Witch Trials.

No matter where you turn, every religion has its Extremists. Its a matter of naming a religion & going from there. But since 9/11, many people believe that all Muslims are terrorists & are only here to send money back to the Middle East to fund more terrorist activities. At least thats how people feel in my home town. All I can do is say Thank Goodness, not many Middle Eastern people live in my area, who knows what some of these people would do....In the name of religion of course

DJDrew, Well said, I agree. Organized Religion, aint for me! I can't stand the thought of someone telling me that everything I say or do is going to send me to hell. If that were the case, well, All I can say is that the Devil better move over. Because the way some people make it out to be, I am the Devil. So he better move over so I can take over.

I'm an Atheist so I don't have a religion.

Itachi666 wrote:I'm an Atheist so I don't have a religion.

Actually, atheism IS a religion. There is no proof for evolution. You have faith that evolution occurred, but you can't go back and watch it happen, and there is no solid proof that it happened, therefore it is a faith.

Vega wrote:

Itachi666 wrote:I'm an Atheist so I don't have a religion.

Actually, atheism IS a religion. There is no proof for evolution. You have faith that evolution occurred, but you can't go back and watch it happen, and there is no solid proof that it happened, therefore it is a faith.

except it's still happening, so it can be (and is) observed.(and there is alot of evidence)

really don't open up the evolution can of worms, it never solves anything except making the people who don't accept evolution look a little irrational and silly.

also atheism and evolutions aren't hand in hand, you don't have to accept evolution to be an atheist, and neither does accepting evolution make you an atheist.

atheism is a philosophical viewpoint, buddhism is an atheistic religion.

Tammuz wrote:

Vega wrote:

Itachi666 wrote:I'm an Atheist so I don't have a religion.

Actually, atheism IS a religion. There is no proof for evolution. You have faith that evolution occurred, but you can't go back and watch it happen, and there is no solid proof that it happened, therefore it is a faith.

except it's still happening, so it can be (and is) observed.(and there is alot of evidence)

really don't open up the evolution can of worms, it never solves anything except making the people who don't accept evolution look a little irrational and silly.

also atheism and evolutions aren't hand in hand, you don't have to accept evolution to be an atheist, and neither does accepting evolution make you an atheist.

atheism is a philosophical viewpoint, buddhism is an atheistic religion.

True. One big loss with the reset of the Philosopher's Forum was near 200 pages of arguments, rebuttals, evidence, and site links in the Creationism vs. Evolution debate (which saw a clear amount more scholarship on the evolution side), many of which saw evolution backed by Christians.

Anyone want to PM Ryan to see if we can get that back and save us some steam?

Except there isn't anythig close to proof for MACRO evolution. The "evolution" that we see going on now is not evolution but rather adaptation. Animals aren't growing legs or changing colors or any of that and there isn't anything out there the proves evolution. The evidence that is spoken of is rather, wishful thing but in reality it is simple adaptation. But in spite of all that there is NOTHING that even comes close to proving MACRO evolution and the only thing you get is theories by scientists. That is why it is hard to convince Christians of it. But most Christians (myself include) believe that if evolution does exist in one form or another it is Gods plan to keep life on Earth thriving.

And atheism is a religion because regardless if an atheist believe in the big bang or evolution( I have yet to see an atheist who doesn't but there may be some) he puts his faith and belief in science. He has faith that science provides the answers. How many scientific "theories" are out there that a clung onto by atheists that they think must be real? Many. It is a s much religion as anything. Science is the god of atheists.

Here is the bottom line that I THINK we can mostly all agree on. Organized religion is ok and people in it have their hearts in the right place. It's th radicals of ANY of those organized religions that ruin it for all.