The Energon Pub

PRiMES_DESTiNY wrote:"Any race aside I find it absolutely hypocritical that we go through so much to bring equality to all of the races yet these same people bitch about special treatment."

what do u mean "these same people bitch about special treatment."

are you referring to people of color asking for equal respect across the board? then i dont see that as asking for "special treatment." i see that as something anyone of ANY race has the right to ask for and receive. and as much as people hate to admit it, it has yet to be truly 100% received and given.

Because demanding reparations completely contradicts equality. If you want reparations you are advocating inequality between the races because you're establishing preferential treatment based entirely on race. Racial inequality isn't a term that applies only to "bad" racial treatment much like the term "consequences" doesn't only imply negative reactions to your actions.

It creates reverse inequality because you have a group of people who are demanding unequal treatment in order to make up for past inequality. Both are wrong.

Reparations for slavery make black people unequal because they are getting special and preferential treatment based solely on their race. Right or wrong... doesn't matter in this argument. I'm only second generation American so does that mean I should have to pay for reparations? My family was making shoes in Brindisi half a century after the Civil War ended and slavery was abolished yet just because the color of my skin I'm supposed to be held accountable for something I, nor any of my ancestors, took any part in?

How fair is that? Reparations don't come from nowhere. They come from taxpayer money. Just like Native Americans getting free tuition at public universities and colleges. Again, my tax money goes to something neither I nor any of my ancestors had a damn thing to do with.

This system of preference in order to make up for past acts is getting to be destructive on it's own.

So do you want to be equal or not?

lkavadas wrote:
Because demanding reparations completely contradicts equality. If you want reparations you are advocating inequality between the races because you're establishing preferential treatment based entirely on race. Racial inequality isn't a term that applies only to "bad" racial treatment much like the term "consequences" doesn't only imply negative reactions to your actions.

It creates reverse inequality because you have a group of people who are demanding unequal treatment in order to make up for past inequality. Both are wrong.

Reparations for slavery make black people unequal because they are getting special and preferential treatment based solely on their race. Right or wrong... doesn't matter in this argument. I'm only second generation American so does that mean I should have to pay for reparations? My family was making shoes in Brindisi half a century after the Civil War ended and slavery was abolished yet just because the color of my skin I'm supposed to be held accountable for something I, nor any of my ancestors, took any part in?

How fair is that? Reparations don't come from nowhere. They come from taxpayer money. Just like Native Americans getting free tuition at public universities and colleges. Again, my tax money goes to something neither I nor any of my ancestors had a damn thing to do with.

This system of preference in order to make up for past acts is getting to be destructive on it's own.

So do you want to be equal or not?

QFT

Sunstar wrote:

lkavadas wrote:
Because demanding reparations completely contradicts equality. If you want reparations you are advocating inequality between the races because you're establishing preferential treatment based entirely on race. Racial inequality isn't a term that applies only to "bad" racial treatment much like the term "consequences" doesn't only imply negative reactions to your actions.

It creates reverse inequality because you have a group of people who are demanding unequal treatment in order to make up for past inequality. Both are wrong.

Reparations for slavery make black people unequal because they are getting special and preferential treatment based solely on their race. Right or wrong... doesn't matter in this argument. I'm only second generation American so does that mean I should have to pay for reparations? My family was making shoes in Brindisi half a century after the Civil War ended and slavery was abolished yet just because the color of my skin I'm supposed to be held accountable for something I, nor any of my ancestors, took any part in?

How fair is that? Reparations don't come from nowhere. They come from taxpayer money. Just like Native Americans getting free tuition at public universities and colleges. Again, my tax money goes to something neither I nor any of my ancestors had a damn thing to do with.

This system of preference in order to make up for past acts is getting to be destructive on it's own.

So do you want to be equal or not?

OK WTF DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH JAZZ!? LOOK IM NOT A JAZZ FAN BUT MAN GET ON WITH THE PRIMARY TOPIC PLEASE?!

Get off of the whole damn race issue entirely, its getting real old real quick

You all are a bunch of yo-yos.



Shut up, ya yo-yos.

up and down up and down! Yo-yo!

Let us take Chris and Wildrider2's advice and return to the primary topic.

I kind of forgotten what it was... Jazz dying? Being a Decepticon, I would like to see ALL autobots die.

Sunstar wrote:I kind of forgotten what it was... Jazz dying? Being a Decepticon, I would like to see ALL autobots die.

As long as Blackout is doing the killin'

I thought it was G1 tradition to have Megatron fall, Starscream take over, flee, and come back over and over fighting and plotting new schemes, and the Autobots following them and stopping their escapades...

difference is here, there is no Autobot super base like the Ark, which was made legendary and upheld as legendary in the G1 cartoon and Beast Wars series...

I like the fact that SS if he is allowed to live escapes, it opens the door for the sequel and Megatron's return and a battle over leadership between SS and Megatron.. plus you can bring back some favs from this series as well...


JAZZ

After inspecting my Brothers recent acquisition of Jazz deluxe toy, i am forced to view him as an Urban Knight, the bot has armor, a sheild, and a freaking lance or sword if you will... and if he has those things in the movie, then he's a FREAKING URBAN KNIGHT!!! his color is silver like a suit of armor, his legs and armor are bulky and more refined like a knight.. to me Jazz is the Urban knight, he's from the city so he talks like he's from the city, but has the armor and Spark/Soul of a champion...


Oh and if I ever use the term, "you people" or "these same people" its the people I'm talking to, and not their race, color, hair style, religion, smell, eye color..Its what they are saying that defines who I am talking about. if I ever use those phrases....alot of people take those phrases out of context and twist it to their own uses.. don't be fooled, if I could point at you in person, I would say in answer to the response of "what do you mean, you people" i would point at them and say "YOU PEOPLE" you the ones I'm talking to, not them back there or over there or up there, but YOU right in front of my face... see not so hard and not so evil, just plain english the way it was meant to be stated..

lkavadas wrote:

Sunstar wrote:I kind of forgotten what it was... Jazz dying? Being a Decepticon, I would like to see ALL autobots die.

As long as Blackout is doing the killin'

Blackout or Starscream. Either one suits me.

Sunstar wrote:

lkavadas wrote:

Sunstar wrote:I kind of forgotten what it was... Jazz dying? Being a Decepticon, I would like to see ALL autobots die.

As long as Blackout is doing the killin'

Blackout or Starscream. Either one suits me.

No love for Brawl? If Brawl doesn't do any killing, what is his purpose in the film?

skywarp-2, I like the urban knight interpretation.

lkavadas wrote:

Keith wrote:Reparations. Again, I stated a "token" of "acknowledgement", not the present day equivalent of 40 acres and a mule in 1865. However, fact is, the reparations were promised..as a political device, yes...but still promised. People should not act as if Black people are crazy for wanting reparations. It is not unprecedented. Did you know that the Japanese families that were interned during WWII got reparations from the US? The Allied powers rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII. The Chinese workers that were indentured to build the American railroads got reparations. Look it up. The native Americans are tax exempt, and get free college tuition. Does this make up for atrocities? Heck no. But is an acknowledgement of wrong-doing by the US. Blacks folks simply want the same treatment. Given the precedents, it is offensive that we haven't gotten anything. That is why Black people get all upset. It is not a guilt trip. It is just fair and equitable treatment. People try to dismiss it as a guilt trip b/c they don't want to deal with it. This is a great country. Blacks are as responsible for its greatness as any group. Living here and benefitting from America's greatness does not mean there is not a reckoning necessary. Black people deserve all the good America has to offer b/c we helped build it. Reparations are the acknowledgement of the wrongs committed against Blacks while they were doing the building.

Any race aside I find it absolutely hypocritical that we go through so much to bring equality to all of the races yet these same people bitch about special treatment.

Make up your mind. Do you want to be equal or unequal? Reparations makes you unequal. The government shouldn't have any fiscal or legislative obligation to any group of people besides American citizens in general and I disagree with the steps taken in the past to satiate groups of people. A public apology is fine and dandy but anything else is preferential treatment which shatters the illusion of equality between groups/races.

You can cry all you want about the past and how horrible this or that was but I don't think there's any excuse for the type of "reverse inequality" you demand. Reparations? The deaths of 366,222 Union soldiers aren't enough to satisfy you? Or doesn't their sacrifice count?

Keith wrote:Did you know that Black people still do not have the right to vote? Black people's right to vote is granted by an ACT, not a law, that is reviewed and extended every 25 years.

This is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever seen on this board. The act you're referring to is the "Voting Rights Act" of 1965.

It includes absolutely no mention of a specific race. The only thing this act does is outlaw literacy tests and provide federal registration of voters in areas where less than 50% of the eligible minority voters are registered.

The black vote was actually ensured in the 15th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and is protected by the 14th Amendment which includes due process and equal protection to freed slaves.

On top of the provisions of the 14th Amendment you have the 15th Amendment which was explicitly written and ratified to ensure that the governments in the United States can not prevent or interfere with any citizen from voting because of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Now, switching back to the 14th Amendment we have a clear definition of citizenship and its qualification as it overturned the Supreme Court ruling in the Dredd Scott case. We adopted a juris soli rule of citizenship which is basically stating that if you're born on American soil you are automatically a citizen. The only exception to juris soli is the territory of American Samoa.

You aren't very educated about this my friend.

You stole my words! Lord Galvatron is calling his lawyer! Prosecutor CYCLONUS!!!



Cyclonus: "Lord Galvatron, please! We must use strategy--"

Galvatron: "Strategy is for cowards!"

Sorry. Flashback.

You brought back some great memories of my POLI-SCI I and II classes in college. This reminded me of it, namely the 14th Amendment.

At any rate, sorry Keith, but Judge Deliberata has reached a verdict: PWNED!



Now can't we just get back to TRANSFORMERS, pleeeeeaaase???

Leonardo wrote:

Sunstar wrote:

lkavadas wrote:

Sunstar wrote:I kind of forgotten what it was... Jazz dying? Being a Decepticon, I would like to see ALL autobots die.

As long as Blackout is doing the killin'

Blackout or Starscream. Either one suits me.

No love for Brawl? If Brawl doesn't do any killing, what is his purpose in the film?

skywarp-2, I like the urban knight interpretation.

Why thank you, I am very fond of Jazz, and his deluxe figure even more.. i still say Ratchet should die first and come back after stasis lock as a White with red ambulance of some sort..

Like this::grin:

Its a cool design, and not a van, which is painted to be an ambulance, plus he's similar to prime and would be cool looking if in that mode..

http://usrvac.pbwiki.com/f/925ambulance1.jpg

I'm still of the mind that if a character dies then they should stay dead. The only resurrection I'd like to see would be Megatron as Galvatron.

lkavadas wrote:

Keith wrote:Reparations. Again, I stated a "token" of "acknowledgement", not the present day equivalent of 40 acres and a mule in 1865. However, fact is, the reparations were promised..as a political device, yes...but still promised. People should not act as if Black people are crazy for wanting reparations. It is not unprecedented. Did you know that the Japanese families that were interned during WWII got reparations from the US? The Allied powers rebuilt Germany and Japan after WWII. The Chinese workers that were indentured to build the American railroads got reparations. Look it up. The native Americans are tax exempt, and get free college tuition. Does this make up for atrocities? Heck no. But is an acknowledgement of wrong-doing by the US. Blacks folks simply want the same treatment. Given the precedents, it is offensive that we haven't gotten anything. That is why Black people get all upset. It is not a guilt trip. It is just fair and equitable treatment. People try to dismiss it as a guilt trip b/c they don't want to deal with it. This is a great country. Blacks are as responsible for its greatness as any group. Living here and benefitting from America's greatness does not mean there is not a reckoning necessary. Black people deserve all the good America has to offer b/c we helped build it. Reparations are the acknowledgement of the wrongs committed against Blacks while they were doing the building.

Any race aside I find it absolutely hypocritical that we go through so much to bring equality to all of the races yet these same people bitch about special treatment.

Make up your mind. Do you want to be equal or unequal? Reparations makes you unequal. The government shouldn't have any fiscal or legislative obligation to any group of people besides American citizens in general and I disagree with the steps taken in the past to satiate groups of people. A public apology is fine and dandy but anything else is preferential treatment which shatters the illusion of equality between groups/races.

You can cry all you want about the past and how horrible this or that was but I don't think there's any excuse for the type of "reverse inequality" you demand. Reparations? The deaths of 366,222 Union soldiers aren't enough to satisfy you? Or doesn't their sacrifice count?

Keith wrote:Did you know that Black people still do not have the right to vote? Black people's right to vote is granted by an ACT, not a law, that is reviewed and extended every 25 years.

This is one of the most ignorant statements I've ever seen on this board. The act you're referring to is the "Voting Rights Act" of 1965.

It includes absolutely no mention of a specific race. The only thing this act does is outlaw literacy tests and provide federal registration of voters in areas where less than 50% of the eligible minority voters are registered.

The black vote was actually ensured in the 15th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution and is protected by the 14th Amendment which includes due process and equal protection to freed slaves.

On top of the provisions of the 14th Amendment you have the 15th Amendment which was explicitly written and ratified to ensure that the governments in the United States can not prevent or interfere with any citizen from voting because of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

Now, switching back to the 14th Amendment we have a clear definition of citizenship and its qualification as it overturned the Supreme Court ruling in the Dredd Scott case. We adopted a juris soli rule of citizenship which is basically stating that if you're born on American soil you are automatically a citizen. The only exception to juris soli is the territory of American Samoa.

You aren't very educated about this my friend.

lkavadas......sigh

You see, this is why these forums are not the best place for these types of discussions. I tried to get my point across as concisely as I could. I guess I failed from that standpoint.

I am very familiar with the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments. Thank you. The Voter Right Act I referred to has to do with the federal enforcement of these rights. That Act essentially gave the federal government the right to enforce these constitutional provisions. It essentially undid the Jim Crow laws designed to deny (specifically) Black folks the right to vote. In essence, this Federal provision was put into place to protect its (Black) citizens from local, county and state legislation put into place to strip them of their right as citizens. This being the case, I believe my point still stands. It is an ACT, not LAW, that providesand protects Blacks with the right to vote. So, I may be a little more educated on this matter than you gave me credit for.

I suspect you knew this already.

As far as Union soldiers dying, it is horrible when anyone dies. But the civil war was not fought to free slaves. It was fought to preserve the union, and to create a string federal government. The north had noved to a more industrial-based economy, and had much less need for slaves. The south remained an agricultural economy, whose labor base was predominantly slaves. The "free the slaves" banner was waved, in large part, to unsettle the south. Play the morality card. Rally the south's black slaves to the union's cause. To rally northern slaves and freedmen to the union's cause. Lincoln himself was not morally opposed to slavery. It was a political device that he used effectively. The slaves did not send the troops to die. The union government did. And I do not know how much thanks Black slaves or their descendents owe anyone for abolishment of the slave state, which only was abolished bc/ the north no longer needed slave labor. Aslo, Blacks fought in the civil war as well you know.


As far as reparations, re-read my earlier post about reparations provided to Chinese and Japanese people. To Native Americans. Again, it is not unprecedented. Why for them and not us? An apology is a gesture. Something tangible, however small, might be in order.

Keith, lkavadas:

Please return to the topic. If you wish to continue this conversation in the philosophy forum you are more then welcome to. However this thread needs to be redirected back onto its intended topic or it will have to be locked.

lkavadas wrote:

PRiMES_DESTiNY wrote:"Any race aside I find it absolutely hypocritical that we go through so much to bring equality to all of the races yet these same people bitch about special treatment."

what do u mean "these same people bitch about special treatment."

are you referring to people of color asking for equal respect across the board? then i dont see that as asking for "special treatment." i see that as something anyone of ANY race has the right to ask for and receive. and as much as people hate to admit it, it has yet to be truly 100% received and given.

Because demanding reparations completely contradicts equality. If you want reparations you are advocating inequality between the races because you're establishing preferential treatment based entirely on race. Racial inequality isn't a term that applies only to "bad" racial treatment much like the term "consequences" doesn't only imply negative reactions to your actions.

It creates reverse inequality because you have a group of people who are demanding unequal treatment in order to make up for past inequality. Both are wrong.

Reparations for slavery make black people unequal because they are getting special and preferential treatment based solely on their race. Right or wrong... doesn't matter in this argument. I'm only second generation American so does that mean I should have to pay for reparations? My family was making shoes in Brindisi half a century after the Civil War ended and slavery was abolished yet just because the color of my skin I'm supposed to be held accountable for something I, nor any of my ancestors, took any part in?

How fair is that? Reparations don't come from nowhere. They come from taxpayer money. Just like Native Americans getting free tuition at public universities and colleges. Again, my tax money goes to something neither I nor any of my ancestors had a damn thing to do with.

This system of preference in order to make up for past acts is getting to be destructive on it's own.

So do you want to be equal or not?

lkavadas

No one is saying break the economy. We have to be realistic. However, this country is as great as it is in LARGE part due to the contributions of Black people. There have been many groups representing many lands and cultures that have made contributions to America. Blacks are among those who have made great contributions. And I am not talking about sports and musics (though we dominate...LOL). I am talking politics, science, literature, arts, etc. You may want to read up on Black history, buddy. This country would not be what it is today without Blacks.

Reparations have to do with REPAIRING the damage done. They are about closure. To deny the legitamacy of the reparation claim, is to deny the wrongs that were committed. Is this what you are saying?

As far as equality, we are already equal. That is not the issue. The issue is acknowledgement and closure. You can't just expect to say "oops!!! my bad" to millions and millions of people displaced and bastardized via American slavery. As a second generation American, you cannot relate. You can here willingly. You maintain you sense of history and identity (as evidenced by your "Brindisi" comment). These are things Black people do not have.

So, yes, Jazz...how about that visor, huh?

Neko wrote:Keith, lkavadas:

Please return to the topic. If you wish to continue this conversation in the philosophy forum you are more then welcome to. However this thread needs to be redirected back onto its intended topic or it will have to be locked.

Sorry. I will comply. I was responding to what I considered an attack on my credibility.

yes please lets get back to the topic of jazz and our silly spoilers and wise cracks.

Leonardo wrote:So, yes, Jazz...how about that visor, huh?

That Visor in the toy for Jazz glows either from light piping or the paint applications, I didn't have too much time while visiting my little Brother to inspect it properly, but either way, it reminds me of the Knight helmets.. i love it.. his Left arm/shoulder houses a large shield...He's badass!!!

Jazz the Urban knight! Credit for that goes to my little Brother John..

Sup fools!!

Back the F$$# up before I break this Lance off in yer Drive train!!!

Yeeah!!


Also do ya'll realise that this is the 2nd most viewed post on this thread section....Geez!!!

Who knew Jazz was so Popular.. he he he

You should sit him on Battle Unicorn and have him ride out to slay TM2 Megatron.

I still like the idea of the squeak even though it might be megatron's joints... I so want to make a stuffed jazz toy with a squeaky toy in the middle..

Leonardo wrote:You should sit him on Battle Unicorn and have him ride out to slay TM2 Megatron.

LOL...He he he nice.....