The Energon Pub

when it comes to the matter of a public education and it being cumpolsory or mandatory in its nature when it comes to jnr and snr high school

when it comes to the matter being in the so called best interests for the person who is thierself the minor student

what is it exactly about the very idea of allowing that person who is the minor studet to have a actual say and an actual opportunity to speak up for theirself on the matter in so far as that person being treated in a considerate and respectful manner where that persons thoughts and feelings and right to free speech are concerned that is so ... so alien so intolerable in its nature when it comes to the very idea that the gov stubbornly insists on a children should be seen but never heard approach when it comes to the government believing that only the government itself should be allowed to have the ultimate final say in so far as what decisions that persons parents can or cannot make on the matter

for that matter why must it be a terrible thing at all where the governemnt is concerned for a person as a minor and thier parentsto willingly refuse to force that person through jnr and snr high all together asa life altering experieince.

to be honest i see absolutely nothing wrong with a person asa minor student at that point in their life and their parnets choosing of thier own free will to outright rejct the education the government would force on that unwilling person at that point in their life in so far as what kind of education that person and thier parents want their son or daughter to have as a teenaged minor and what social environmental setting that person will recieve the education through

for some people like myself if a person learns a single thing at all it is becuase that person of thier own free will has a genuine interest in the subject matter and a genuine personel desire to learn it of their own free will

to actually learn at their own time and pace and in a non opressive open minded social environment of that persons own personel prefferance

simply because a person like that refuses to be victimised in the matter in their refusing the education that is not the education that person and their parents want and simply because a person refuses to be forced through the whole experieince of jnr and snr high does not mean that person is ignorrent retarded or stupid or unteachable

it simply means that person refuses to be forced to accept a education in a social environmental setting that goes entirely agasint their free will, that robs them of their most basic rights as a living human being by a government and society that wants only to victimize that person

basicly what i am trying to understand is this

why must it be a crime at all for a person as a minor to be supported by their parents on the matter and for them to make thier own decision on the matter

for that matter why must it be a crime at all for that person and their parents and thier family to have the final say rejecting the governments will on the ,matter in ther supporting that young persons decision on the matter for theirself in so far as that person instead choosing of their own free will to whole heartedly reject the jnr/snr high school part of the education the govenrment would want to force on theat person when it comes to that person isntead recieving their remaining education through actual personel expeirinece i nthe greater community outside of the schools, through that minor persons own personel life experieince and through personeally leanring the life experieinces of their family realtives and those persons who are friends of thee family

in short why must free will on the matter be a crime when it comes to a persons parents and their son or daughter collectively making the final decision on the matter in supporting their teenaged minor son or duaghter's decision on the matter?

Well....

Not to sound like an ass, but if one has completed a basic high school education then they may find they have the ability when attempting to write about a topic they are serious about to use proper grammar and punctuation while also spelling correctly and/or even just using a spell check program.

Also, and perhaps this is a difference between where you are and where I went to school, but we have people in these parts referred to as a "High School Drop-out" people who for a variety of reason did not complete their "basic" education. Some had personal issues and reasons for quitting, some couldn't be bothered to do the bare minimum to graduate, but regardless there are many people out there without a diploma, resulting in adult education and other courses to help those who couldn't or didn't want to graduate earlier.

Regardless this is not a crime, and the last I checked if a parent wished to remove their child from public schooling whether to place into a private school, home schooling, putting them to work, or even just not caring it was their right to do so. If fact I can remember a number of people I attended Junior High with that opted out of public school before reaching Senior High.

This is not the type of matter that should be the directive of a government, as it denies the rights and individual freedom of a person or family unit. The exception to this rule would only be if the parents in question were not capable themselves of being able to handle or issue a matter of this nature, in which case the state for the good of the child should be involved because at that point it is no longer an issue of education but proper welfare for the child(s) involved.

Your entire argument is easily dismissible by the sheer volume of spelling, grammar, and punctuation mistakes in your prose.

If you want to be treated with respect and accomplish something of value in the world, fundamental conversation and communication should be your first step.

TL;DR - Stop listening to "The Wall" and accept the fact that you're young and don't know anything yet. Empty your cup or get ready for a lifetime of disappointment.

Your whole post boils down to "I don't want to go to school, and here's a wall of text why it should be wrong to force me to go." I can't actually blame you, not wanting to go to school is a very common mindset, plus the whole thing is so tedious and boring. (Your mileage may vary, obviously) But it's not that it's mandatory, it's that it's necessary. Very few employers will hire you without a high school diploma, and they usually don't pay well.

Not to mention, they actually teach spelling and grammar in school. I'm with everyone else on this one. Your rant against mandatory education is offset by your poor spelling and grammar skills. If I didn't think you were totally serious, I'd think you were making a parody of kids who don't want to go to school but obviously need to.

Don't be a fool, stay in school.

EDIT: Oh, and I just realized. he's talking about being forced to learn subjects he doesn't want to learn in High School. The problem, though, is that you're allowed to choose what classes you want to take in high school. Never mind that there's things you need to learn, whether or not you want to.

EDIT 2: Cleaned up my own errors and/or hypocrisy.

I blame the parnets.

Oh boo hoo! The govt. is forcing me to better myself!

My sister held teh same opinion, she pissed about in school, which was a real shame given her intelligence was rather high, fell in with the wrong crowd and ended up as a teen mum - which actually benefited her as she got off teh dope and booze.

Of course now, her child is 7 and my sister finds herself only able to get jobs that involve scrubbing toilets or peeling chickens in the back of some dodgey cafe. My sister has woken up to the hard reality that in this day and age, you can't get very far without a decent education, or at least a very basic one.

This is 2010, you might have gotten away with no high school education in 1950 but not now.

Personally, I reckon if you decide to drop out of school of your own free will, then you pick up the tab, no dole bludging for you because you find yourself personally opposed to either a lifetime flipping burgers or scrubbing toilets, or what's the other one? Jail when you try to go gangsta to make some pennies?

In closing, harden up princess.

Yea I also second everybody' opinion here. Education is important and in this day and age only those with the best grades actually get jobs and the higher your grades and education the better the jobs are.

Especially in times where most of the low end jobs with low standards on grades and education, like manufacturing jobs, are sent on off to low income countries where work standards are low and wages are cheap.

The only way you can compete with those is if you're education is good, that's why you should stay in school, and later after public school try to get a higher education, it's worth it.
Ether that or join the army for life, but they don't take every idiot.

And since you're obviously still very young, take what Counterpunch said to hart, learning grammar while still young is easy, well learning anything while at a young age is generally easy, while later it's freaking hard. I mean I struggle with grammar in three freaking languages at the moment and damn do I wish I had learned proper grammar earlier.

I also have to agree. Your actual post serves our point. You should probably pay attention in English class, and get that Punctuation right. Normally on this site, grammar & punctuation are thrown right out the window, but when trying to prove a serious point like this, you should make sure to include correct spelling and grammar. Also, i didn't understand half of what you just said.

Screw secondary education. Most people I went to school with left with the same numeracy and language skills they arrived with at the age of 12. They could have spent five years watching TV and turning up to work for a few hours in McDonalds and it would've prepared them better for the rest of their lives - boring, miserable and unfulfilled.






Now for the big question? Was I joking?

Amelie wrote:Screw secondary education. Most people I went to school with left with the same numeracy and language skills they arrived with at the age of 12. They could have spent five years watching TV and turning up to work for a few hours in McDonalds and it would've prepared them better for the rest of their lives - boring, miserable and unfulfilled.

So what you're saying is, most of the people you know didn't try very hard in high school and are now miserable? Imagine that.

Amelie wrote:SNow for the big question? Was I joking?

Yeah, you were.

Shadowman wrote:Yeah, you were.

Wrong. I may have phrased that one as a joke, but I pretty much meant it. If you're not going to bother at school and spend your day disrupting other people's eductation - please, do go work somewhere dull, repetitive and soulcrushing from a young age.

Amelie wrote:

Shadowman wrote:Yeah, you were.

Wrong. I may have phrased that one as a joke, but I pretty much meant it. If you're not going to bother at school and spend your day disrupting other people's eductation - please, do go work somewhere dull, repetitive and soulcrushing from a young age.

I think somewhere down the line there was a serious communication error and I'm not entirely certain we're on the same page. In particular, how you start with "screw secondary education" but then go off to talk about how people who didn't try very hard in school now lead crap lives. It's contradictory and, at least for me, kind of confusing.

I just think that for some people they may be better off with a job placement.

1) If you're not going to pay any attention at school anyways (and therefore not get anything out of it) - you're better off earning valuable experience on a work placement or getting an apprenticeship.

2) If you do end up working and decide you aren't an suited to it, you could always reattend school.

The serious problem we have really is that school\college\university is only free up until a certain age. If we could freely leave school as early as 13\14 (and get a job and pay tax\apprenticeship\work placements), but return when we're older, I'm sure plenty of us would.

On another matter, I am not entirely fond of the UKs education system on the whole - it favors academic study, and relies heavily on exams and therefore punishes students that are either more suited to artistic\skilled subjects or students that do badly in exams. Some fellow students

So I personally don't find it contradictory to think "screw secondary schools" and to think that people gain benefits from it.

Amelie wrote:The serious problem we have really is that school\college\university is only free up until a certain age. If we could freely leave school as early as 13\14 (and get a job and pay tax\apprenticeship\work placements), but return when we're older, I'm sure plenty of us would.

Actually you only have to pay for college in the US. Everything below that is free. Unless you attend private school or something.

I say if you don't take our governments way of training you to not be a burden on our society, then you should not be allowed to take any government assistance after.

Denying yourself an education, is by definition, denying yourself the opportunity to fulfill your true potential. Ultimately that means your denying yourself the ability to positively influence your own future, whist restricting future possibilities or choices, and potentially damaging your quality of life.

Now why on Earth would you want to do something like that?

Amelie wrote:

On another matter, I am not entirely fond of the UKs education system on the whole - it favors academic study, and relies heavily on exams and therefore punishes students that are either more suited to artistic\skilled subjects or students that do badly in exams. Some fellow students
.

Our system was a lot like the UK's up until a few years ago when tehy changed it. Its now focussed on working through the whole year as opposed to studying for exams at the end. It internally assessed, and basically a student earns "credits" in subjects by doing various assignments throughout their schooling. The argument for it was that not all students are good at exams and that some kids don't do any work anyway and manage to pass exams at the end.

Well, let me tell you it is a complete and utter abortion. Schools have been busted sitting their students in a classroom and giving them credits to copy pages out of a dictionary. The incredibly intelligent students are getting shafted, while idiots and lazy buggers are excelling. The system down here already encouraged mediocrity and now its basically govt. policy [or rather the last govt's policy].

It also seeks to soften teh blows of failure. My cousin was in the first year to have this mess and she said she didnt' know if she had failed something because they had it on a seperate piece of paper and it was somethign really soft like "not achieved".

Kids need to know they've failed. We need to stop with this PC BS of molly coddling kids, cos out in the real world, you screw up, the boss isn't going to pat you on the head and say "oh well, never mind", you'll be out on your arse. Kids also need to know why they failed.

Laziness doesn't get you anyway. The education system shouldn't foster it. Changing the system because a few kids can't do exams, or can't be bothered with exams is a coward's way out.

If kids don't want to be in school, tough, we all gotta do things we don't like. The real world isn't about what feels good and when we can get out of stuff we don't wanna do, its about accepting that the situation sometimes calls for something we don't want to do. Its like taxes. You think I like watching my pay cheque get wittled away so lazy bastards can sit at home watching TV all day? What do people think is going to happen if they decide to not pay their taxes? Secondary school is what, five years? Goes faster then a bout of diarrohea.

People need to toughen up and stop being a bunch of cry babies.

Just Negare wrote:Our system was a lot like the UK's up until a few years ago when tehy changed it. Its now focussed on working through the whole year as opposed to studying for exams at the end. It internally assessed, and basically a student earns "credits" in subjects by doing various assignments throughout their schooling. The argument for it was that not all students are good at exams and that some kids don't do any work anyway and manage to pass exams at the end.

Well, let me tell you it is a complete and utter abortion. Schools have been busted sitting their students in a classroom and giving them credits to copy pages out of a dictionary. The incredibly intelligent students are getting shafted, while idiots and lazy buggers are excelling. The system down here already encouraged mediocrity and now its basically govt. policy [or rather the last govt's policy].

That is more a failure of how the system was designed - as opposed to the actual ideal behind it. What you have described is a system that has fail\pass (which I would never think was a good idea), as opposed to a system that still has graded pass rates (1st,2nd,3rd or A,B,C).

It also seeks to soften teh blows of failure. My cousin was in the first year to have this mess and she said she didnt' know if she had failed something because they had it on a seperate piece of paper and it was somethign really soft like "not achieved".

Kids need to know they've failed. We need to stop with this PC BS of molly coddling kids, cos out in the real world, you screw up, the boss isn't going to pat you on the head and say "oh well, never mind", you'll be out on your arse. Kids also need to know why they failed.

Laziness doesn't get you anyway. The education system shouldn't foster it. Changing the system because a few kids can't do exams, or can't be bothered with exams is a coward's way out.

So what you are suggesting is that instead of recognising that students have different aptitudes when it comes to learning\courses and allowing for that, that we should instead punish the children that don't suit the single style of education that is used? Thats foolish. Being good in a exam proves nothing, except that you're good in an exam - all it does do is mean that there will be plenty of students with good\high aptitude at subjects with a crap mark, and therefore less likely to get the job compared to someone that may well have less ability but is good\lucky in the exam.

If kids don't want to be in school, tough, we all gotta do things we don't like. The real world isn't about what feels good and when we can get out of stuff we don't wanna do, its about accepting that the situation sometimes calls for something we don't want to do. Its like taxes. You think I like watching my pay cheque get wittled away so lazy bastards can sit at home watching TV all day? What do people think is going to happen if they decide to not pay their taxes? Secondary school is what, five years? Goes faster then a bout of diarrohea.

People need to toughen up and stop being a bunch of cry babies.

[color=deeppink]It has nothing to do with "being a cry baby". School isn't about being forced to do something - its about education and giving you the skills for your life ahead. *rolls eyes*

If a student is in a school or a class they don't want to be in, they often become obstructive, which is bad for the other students. If those students are out of the classroom, those that actually want to work properly are able to do so and the government can provide alternative things for the students to do - such as work-placements or apprenticeships. I'm not talking about students going home and watching TV all day - they have to be doing something, something that will hopefully give them skills for their future life. If you're at school and choosing not to learn, you're not learning anything - if you're out of school but put into a job that provides training or suitably valuable experience, then at least you get something constructive out of it.

Actually you only have to pay for college in the US. Everything below that is free. Unless you attend private school or something.

I've personally never believed that you should have to pay for college, even in adult life. It should be free, at least up until A-Level (Americans read as college).

I hate the education system, it's not getting the job done. There are idiots with master's degree's, geniuses living in the gutter, and billionaire high school drop outs. There are some things that everyone should know: like basic communication, mathematics, science, and history. But that stops sometime in middle school and the rest of the time you're forced to memorize useless trivia. Or cheat your way through, it doesn't matter either way.

Plus you have teachers who don't give a damn or are completely unqualified to teach. I once had a math teacher who couldn't count. I had a marine biology teacher who couldn't even keep half a dozen fish in an aquarium alive for more than 2 days. My auto tech teacher didn't teach us a damn thing. He'd spend the first 10 minutes every day babbling about gay people and drug addicts then leave. He never even tried to teach anything beyond changing tires. I've had classes where the teacher would drone on and on for a week about something, and none of it was on the tests.

You're crammed in a room with about 30 other students, many of whom hate being there. So they bring everyone around them down by disrupting and causing trouble. I had one class that had so many of them in it that 2 or 3 fights broke out in the middle of class. The teacher even got punched in the face once. After she left to change out of her blood stained cloths and compose herself one of the little demons started acting like a rabid howler monkey and ripped all the papers and poster off the walls. Apparently an innocent woman getting hurt trying to keep 2 animals from killing each other was the best thing it ever saw.

I tried to take art every semester since I started high school because I had an interest in it and it is something I still would like to pursue. Unfortunately choosing classes is like voting. You can give your opinion on what you want, but that doesn't mean the people who actually make the decisions will listen. So naturally I didn't get into the class until my absolute last semester. By then I was already ahead of the rest of the class because I had spent most of my free time in my other classes drawing in my sketch pad. I missed out on the more advanced art classes I actually needed because someone didn't put me in the class I wanted until the last minute.

If you can put up with all that BS for 4 years you get a piece of paper. Now you can get a crappy job a zombie could do, or gamble thousands of dollars and 4 more years to get another piece of paper that may or may not open some doors in the distant future.

I really wish there was more value in skilled experienced professionals than people with paper. You can't fake a skill and it takes a lot of hard work to get. For some reason everyone seems to think that being able to answer all the questions on Jeopardy is the greatest thing in the world.

Evil_the_Nub wrote:I hate the education system, it's not getting the job done. There are idiots with master's degree's, geniuses living in the gutter, and billionaire high school drop outs. There are some things that everyone should know: like basic communication, mathematics, science, and history. But that stops sometime in middle school and the rest of the time you're forced to memorize useless trivia. Or cheat your way through, it doesn't matter either way.

Plus you have teachers who don't give a damn or are completely unqualified to teach. I once had a math teacher who couldn't count. I had a marine biology teacher who couldn't even keep half a dozen fish in an aquarium alive for more than 2 days. My auto tech teacher didn't teach us a damn thing. He'd spend the first 10 minutes every day babbling about gay people and drug addicts then leave. He never even tried to teach anything beyond changing tires. I've had classes where the teacher would drone on and on for a week about something, and none of it was on the tests.

You're crammed in a room with about 30 other students, many of whom hate being there. So they bring everyone around them down by disrupting and causing trouble. I had one class that had so many of them in it that 2 or 3 fights broke out in the middle of class. The teacher even got punched in the face once. After she left to change out of her blood stained cloths and compose herself one of the little demons started acting like a rabid howler monkey and ripped all the papers and poster off the walls. Apparently an innocent woman getting hurt trying to keep 2 animals from killing each other was the best thing it ever saw.

I tried to take art every semester since I started high school because I had an interest in it and it is something I still would like to pursue. Unfortunately choosing classes is like voting. You can give your opinion on what you want, but that doesn't mean the people who actually make the decisions will listen. So naturally I didn't get into the class until my absolute last semester. By then I was already ahead of the rest of the class because I had spent most of my free time in my other classes drawing in my sketch pad. I missed out on the more advanced art classes I actually needed because someone didn't put me in the class I wanted until the last minute.

If you can put up with all that BS for 4 years you get a piece of paper. Now you can get a crappy job a zombie could do, or gamble thousands of dollars and 4 more years to get another piece of paper that may or may not open some doors in the distant future.

I really wish there was more value in skilled experienced professionals than people with paper. You can't fake a skill and it takes a lot of hard work to get. For some reason everyone seems to think that being able to answer all the questions on Jeopardy is the greatest thing in the world.

Very nice. All of these are great points, and many are correct in many parts of the U.S. However, in my High School, which is in Texas, we don't have many disruptive students. one kid in my Algebra class was expelled for repeated disruptions. Of course, the time he threw one of his classmates into the wall didn't help either.

It's unfortunate that most schools don't have Academies, which are in-school extra classes that deal with current careers. For instance, RL Turner (my school) has one for Media Arts, another for Health Care, and one for Engineering. All are full to bursting, and the students take pride in their school. I'm guessing that this isn't very common in other schools?