The Energon Pub

Name_Violation wrote::shock: we're kickin a dead horse over here...

How so? I'm trying to explain the difference between canon, and non-canon, but it's not a dead subject.

but you refuse to admit anyone else has a point.i see a bunch of i'm right i'm right. i'm not saying you don't have SOME valid points.

if watchmen isn't cannon for watchmen, what is it cannon for?

hell to get somewhat back on topic, WHICH batman was never a givin topic. why can't we use whatever one we want?

hell I'll agree gl could beat batman, the one from batman beyond.
not any bruce wayne batman. he could beat up adam west he WAS batman.

you win, are we happy now?!?!?

Name_Violation wrote:but you refuse to admit anyone else has a point.i see a bunch of i'm right i'm right. i'm not saying you don't have SOME valid points.

if watchmen isn't cannon for watchmen, what is it cannon for?

hell to get somewhat back on topic, WHICH batman was never a givin topic. why can't we use whatever one we want?

hell I'll agree gl could beat batman, the one from batman beyond.
not any bruce wayne batman. he could beat up adam west he WAS batman.

you win, are we happy now?!?!?

You are not paying attention; I'm trying to explain the definition of canon. Watchmen has it's own canon, yes, but it is non-canon with DC.

Non-canon: A story or piece of fiction that doesn't affect the main line, or does not take the main line into account.

how is cannon related to this topic. the topic isn't 'cannon debate' its batman vs green lantern(hal jordan)

first post states hal jordan, no yellow vulnerability. never says we can't use batman from our choice of material.

anything printed by dc should be fair game.

Name_Violation wrote:how is cannon related to this topic. the topic isn't 'cannon debate' its batman vs green lantern(hal jordan)

first post states hal jordan, no yellow vulnerability. never says we can't use batman from our choice of material.

anything printed by dc should be fair game.

Read the last fifteen or so posts. Sto_vo_kor made a mistake on the definition of what is and isn't canon, and I corrected him. Unfortunately, both you and him misunderstood me, or had some bizarre logic too add, and what should have been three posts became a full discussion.

we're kickin a dead horse over here...

well looks like this forum is done for

Name_Violation wrote::shock: we're kickin a dead horse over here...

well looks like this forum is done for

Sorry, what? None of that made sense. Do you even know the definition of "beating a dead horse?" It means continuing a discussion that has already been resolved.

This argument has not been resolved. We are not beating a dead horse.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:And yet it is canon within its own continuity.

Canon= official sanctioned material

Watchmen is canon to its own universe.

Wether its Independent of the mainstream continuity does not mean it is not canon.

It may not be in continuity with the mainstream universe but it has its own canon.

That is absolutely horrid logic. Watchmen doesn't affect the main DC Universe, so it is non-canon. Superman: Red Son doesn't affect the main DC Universe, so it is non-canon.

If it is independent of the main canon, it is non-canon.

Your misunderstanding the proper use of the word "canon".

By your logic Marvel's Tf comic is no longer canon because TF comics are no longer being written or published by Marvel.

By your logic the earlyer DC multiverse and stories told from then are no longer canon because they dont effect the main DC universe and thats just incorrect.

DC can at any time decide to expand on ether the Watchmen universe and the Red Son universe.

As a matter of fact DC has.The Red Son universe has been adopted into the current DC multiverse as Earth-30 and as all DC earths in the current 52 earth multiverse, each earth is effected by the other and are all born of New earth0.

So the red Son universe does in fact effect the main DC universe since it is part of its multiverse.

And for all we knoe the Watchmen universe may be one of DC's 52 earths.

But regardless if it is or isint....the effects a alternate universe has on the mainstream universe does not dictate weather or not it is "canon".

Shadowman wrote:

Name_Violation wrote::shock: we're kickin a dead horse over here...

How so? I'm trying to explain the difference between canon, and non-canon, but it's not a dead subject.

Because your trying to explain the meaning of the word canon with out understanding yourself how the word is properly used.

This is the definition of the word "canon" as it pertains to works of fiction

Canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is any material that is considered to be "genuine", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator or publisher of a series.

Shadowman wrote:
You are not paying attention; I'm trying to explain the definition of canon. Watchmen has it's own canon, yes, but it is non-canon with DC.

Non-canon: A story or piece of fiction that doesn't affect the main line, or does not take the main line into account.

If your now saying it has its own canon then your contradicting your earlyer use of the word.

Simply put the word canon is not used to explain how the writting effect a different universe outside of the one that the particular story is being told about.

Each universe has its own canon.

If it is not part of a greater universe and its canon does not make in "non canon" within its self.

Shadowman wrote:
Read the last fifteen or so posts. Sto_vo_kor made a mistake on the definition of what is and isn't canon,

I made no mistake but you did.

Shadowman wrote: and I corrected him.

You wish.

Show me my mistakes and how you corrected them.

I'm going to ignore your dozen other posts claiming you're right Shadowman.

Shadowman wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:

God Thundercracker wrote:Sorry, but All-Star Batman is not canon.

Maybe you need to look up the defintion of the word "Canon".

If its a story from DEC cpmics and has a continuity of its own it is "CANON".

God Thundercracker wrote: It is a Frank Miller/Jim Lee project that is completely independent of regular DC continuity.

Yes it is.....which makes it "CANON".

Completely independent of regular DC Continuity = Non-canon.

Just because a story is from DC comics, doesn't mean it's canon. For example, Watchmen, or Superman: Red Son.

If it has a continuity of it's own it is non-canon with any other continuity.

Wrong.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Multiverse#Lis ... _Universes

All Star Batman and Robin
Superman: Red Son
Batman Beyond
Justice Riders
Gotham by Gaslight
Batman In Darkest Knight
Thrillkiller
Wildstorm

Hate to break it to you, but all of those and more are now canon. And exist within the new Multiverse, and are therefore canon. And before you come back with Watchmen isn't there's around 20 alternate Earths that haven't been revealed. For all we know Watchmen is one of them.

Canon is any offically licensed story anyway. It's like saying that Transformers Animated isn't canon because it's it's own self contained universe. It's canon to the entire Transformers franchise as a whole, but not canon, say to the events of Robots in Disguise. The only fiction for a work of fiction that isn't canon is what the owner says isn't canon. Which usually is only fan fiction. Thanks for playing.

Merc With A Mouth wrote:Wrong.

http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Multiverse#Lis ... _Universes

All Star Batman and Robin
Superman: Red Son
Batman Beyond
Justice Riders
Gotham by Gaslight
Batman In Darkest Knight
Thrillkiller
Wildstorm

Hate to break it to you, but all of those and more are now canon. And exist within the new Multiverse, and are therefore canon. And before you come back with Watchmen isn't there's around 20 alternate Earths that haven't been revealed. For all we know Watchmen is one of them.

Thank you.

And even if its not it doesnt change the fact that he was useing the word canon in a incorrect fashion.

His own words

Shadowman wrote:Completely independent of regular DC Continuity = Non-canon.

Which is completely wrong.

Wether a story is in continuity with an other does not dictate its value as "canon".

As I pointed out the defintion of the word "Canon" as it pretains to a work of fiction is as follows....

Canon, in terms of a fictional universe, is any material that is considered to be "genuine", or can be directly referenced as material produced by the original author or creator or publisher of a series.

And in that any mini serries written an published by their owners or those that have the rights to tell their stories are publishing a "Canon" story.

my point is you have succeded in utterly derailing the topic.

feel free to start a cannon vs non cannon topic. i suggest fantasy battles, so you can be in your own little world, and will be able to find it close to where you live.

I disagree. Citing previous battles and encounters between the characters in question is always relevant to the discussion. Here someone tried to discredit some of them because they viewed them as non canon. The nature of canon was briefly discussed to clear up confusion. And now the thread continues on who would win between Batman (unspecified) and Hal Jordan as Green Lantern.

It raises new questions so I'm going to rattle off some matchups.

Bruce Wayne vs Hal: Bruce is smart enough to never let Hal know he's coming even if Hal knows they're in a fight. Lantern Rings are capable of detecting life forms. But only if Hal tells it to. So unless Hal's actively searching for Bruce with the ring he's never going to find him. Bruce is one of the greatest Martial Artists in the DC Universe, but not the best by his own admission. So if he could take Hal by surprise and engage a hand to hand fight before Hal could use the Ring he could beat him easily.

Hal probably won't be shooting laser beams with his ring since he rarely does it. He'll instead try to trap or subdue The God Damn Batman with his ringtraps or weapons. And the larger the contruct the more willpower and energy needed.The God Damn Batman could avoid all of these until he finds an opening to get into position to take Hal out with a nerve strike or paralyzing blow if needed. The tossup here though is that yes, if Hal connects with a large blugeoning energy weapon he might be fast enough to capitalise on it and capture The God Damn Batman. It's also been proven that Hal is capable of fear, and The God Damn Batman is someone who is skilled in the use of psychological warfare. If he has to dope Hal up with something to take him down he will.

Edge: Batman

Terry McGuinness vs. Hal: As much as I love Terry unless he's the 40 year old version there's no way he's going to beat Hal. Hal's got too much experience on him. Terry's just a street fighter with a fair amount of Martial Arts training and Hal's a trained solider in some continuities. Hal would probably beat him into the ground with a giant Hammer.

Edge: Hal

Jean Paul Grim and Gritty Valley vs Hal: Unless he can stab Hal with his finger claws or shoots him in the head with his killer bat darts I don't see this going well for Jean Paul. It's even worse if he's using his bulky red costume against him since it limits his mobility. Oh and he's batshit insane so he's just going to be trying to go for kill blows like a frenzied attack dog. Hal would put him away in under 5 minutes.

Edge: Hal

All Star The God Damn Batman: [FrankMiller]This God Damn Batman would play a little differently from New Earth God Damn Batman. He'd lull Hal into a false sense of security by jumping him outside of a bar after Hal was piss drunk. He'd punch him in the throat and then knee him in the balls before slamming his head into the concrete. The God Damn Batman would then say "That's a damn fine coa..." wrong book sorry. He'd say: "I'm the God Damn Batman." And then he'd go out for WHORES WHORES WHORES.[/FrankMiller]

Edge: The God Damn Batman

and thats why i appreciate merc.

thank you. thank you for stopping the cannon fodder

Honestly, I don't get why people think Batman is so badass. He's basically just a mentally disturbed man dressed as a flying rodent, crying over mommy and daddy. And he's a self-righteous hy[pocrite, too.

God Thundercracker wrote:Honestly, I don't get why people think Batman is so badass. He's basically just a mentally disturbed man dressed as a flying rodent, crying over mommy and daddy. And he's a self-righteous hy[pocrite, too.

He's a mentally disturbed man, dressed as a flying rodent, obsessed with not letting anyone experience the same horror he did as an 8 year old boy. He is a brilliant multi-millionare(billionare now), the best martial artist on apparently any planet.

Not to mention he has this annoying habit of planning for every single solitary outcome possible with going into any situation imaginable.

He's like MacGyver mixed with Chuck Norris and some Wolverine added for spice.

Not only with he round-house kick you into oblivion, but he can also make a device out of a paper-clip and a used condom that will somehow recreate you from nothingness just so he could roundhouse kick you again.

Plus, he has a plan to kill every meta-human on the planet in case they decide to go rouge.

Senor Hugo wrote:

God Thundercracker wrote:Honestly, I don't get why people think Batman is so badass. He's basically just a mentally disturbed man dressed as a flying rodent, crying over mommy and daddy. And he's a self-righteous hy[pocrite, too.

He's a mentally disturbed man, dressed as a flying rodent, obsessed with not letting anyone experience the same horror he did as an 8 year old boy. He is a brilliant multi-millionare(billionare now), the best martial artist on apparently any planet.

Not to mention he has this annoying habit of planning for every single solitary outcome possible with going into any situation imaginable.

He's like MacGyver mixed with Chuck Norris and some Wolverine added for spice.

Not only with he round-house kick you into oblivion, but he can also make a device out of a paper-clip and a used condom that will somehow recreate you from nothingness just so he could roundhouse kick you again.

Plus, he has a plan to kill every meta-human on the planet in case they decide to go rouge.

I'll admit Batman is a master of psycological warfare, but Hal knows how to push Batman's buttons. And just to be clear, I'm talking about regular Batman vs. regular Hal Jordan, not All-Star Batman vs. All-Star Hal Jordan. Regular Hal is a LOT smarter and more experienced than All-Star Hal.

God Thundercracker wrote:I'll admit Batman is a master of psycological warfare, but Hal knows how to push Batman's buttons.

Whats your bases for that statement?????

In 33 years of reading DC comics I havent seen 1 single example of Hal knowing how to push Batmans buttons.

About the only hero's that seems to get under Batman's skin is the Creaper and maybe Guy Garner.

The only thing Hal has been able to prove is that Batman doesnt scare him.

I think you need to do a little more reading up on these characters.

Hal has been able to make Batman so angry that he can't think clearly, like in GL: Rebirth.

God Thundercracker wrote:Hal has been able to make Batman so angry that he can't think clearly, like in GL: Rebirth.

When the hell did that happen.

I'm reading "Rebirth" right now and I see no indication of that what so ever.

Sorry buddy but your seeing what you want to see.

I beleive Batman was acting irrationally in rebirth for two reasons. Paralax was influencing him and Johns writes him as a jerk.

However the Batman side argument seems to in most part rely on one argument: 'nu-uh batman's oppenent won't do anything that could allow them to win.'

Green lantern has millions of ways to win and Batman doesn't have any in particular. When Green Lantern goes rogue Batman calls Superman. Thats what he did when Kyle got a whiff of Joker gas.

However this is comics and a fair number of writers think like that. A lot of heroes beat people they have no business beating because thats what the fans want. Characters with superspeed don't use it on hulk, Superhumans don't reduce Batman to dust be blinking at him. Black panther can hold of the silver surfer with his knowledge of preasure points.

However the idea that Btaman can dodge GL's constructs is rediculous. Ask yourselves is he faster than zoom? If you think yes you've come to a bad place.

Inferno Prime wrote:When Green Lantern goes rogue Batman calls Superman. Thats what he did when Kyle got a whiff of Joker gas.

There's a major difference between Batman fighting a hero that has gone rouge or insane and fighting one that is in control of them selfs.

Beating Hal under his own will wouldnt be impossible for Bats but beating Hal will under the posseion of Parallax is an other thing all together.

And the fact that Batman would call in an other hero to do the heavy hitting is no shocker.

In my book that would still count as a win in Batmans book.

It would be his plan that won the day and the fight....and the simple fact is Batman cheats.

I know there are plenty that think that the fact that he cheats doesnt speak well of him but if you really apply some logic to the issue you'll see that he has to cheat.

Batman has to cheat death every single day he puts on the suit.

Inferno Prime wrote:I beleive Batman was acting irrationally in rebirth for two reasons. Paralax was influencing him and Johns writes him as a jerk.

However the Batman side argument seems to in most part rely on one argument: 'nu-uh batman's oppenent won't do anything that could allow them to win.'

Green lantern has millions of ways to win and Batman doesn't have any in particular. When Green Lantern goes rogue Batman calls Superman. Thats what he did when Kyle got a whiff of Joker gas.

However this is comics and a fair number of writers think like that. A lot of heroes beat people they have no business beating because thats what the fans want. Characters with superspeed don't use it on hulk, Superhumans don't reduce Batman to dust be blinking at him. Black panther can hold of the silver surfer with his knowledge of preasure points.

However the idea that Btaman can dodge GL's constructs is rediculous. Ask yourselves is he faster than zoom? If you think yes you've come to a bad place.

mr fantastic doesnt fight villians with piercing weapons

Name_Violation wrote:mr fantastic doesnt fight villians with piercing weapons

What does that have anything to do with what's being discussed? Although Mr. Fantastic happens to have resistance to bullets and knives.

I think, at the very least, the fight comes down to who gets the drop on who, and prep time. If Hal got the jump on Batman, Hal would win, but if Batman got the jump on Hal, Batman wins. And if both knew the other was out for his blood, it would, again, probably go to Hal.

But who would you say is more ruthless between Hal and Batman?