The Energon Pub

All Hal saw was the business guy being attacked by a group of violent men. It's Hal's job to maintain order in his sector, so of course he stepped in to stop it. How do you know he wasn't going to find out what was going on once he'd restrained the guys who were attacking the businessman? I think you're being extremely unfair. What do you think Batman would have done? The same thing, I'm sure, except he would have put those dudes in the hospital.

God Thundercracker wrote:All Hal saw was the business guy being attacked by a group of violent men. It's Hal's job to maintain order in his sector, so of course he stepped in to stop it. How do you know he wasn't going to find out what was going on once he'd restrained the guys who were attacking the businessman?

I've said it before I'll say it again.

"If you havent read the books in question you should refrain from making judgments"

You asked " How do you know he wasn't going to find out what was going on once he'd restrained the guys who were attacking the businessman?" I know he didnt because I own the book and have read it many times.

I read it when it was originally printed in the 70's.

And Hal, in his so called wisdom, never asked a single question or bothered to find out what motivated the attack.

He just used his ring to carry, who he called a "young punk" to jail.Causing that young kids grandmother to go with out food or money since that kid was her only means of support.

So Hal rush to judgement was not only based on a biase opinion of the situation it caused an old woman to go hungry for the night.

Ultimately it was Green Arrow that had to set Hal strait.

God Thundercracker wrote:I think you're being extremely unfair.

And I think you should do a little research before talking about things you obviously no little about.

And for the record....

I find it hilarious that your accusing me of being "extremely unfair" to Hal when everything I've said about the character I've backed up, while everything you've said about Batman you havent been able to back up at all.

At least I have an understanding and know the history about the character I'm complaining about.

God Thundercracker wrote: What do you think Batman would have done? The same thing, I'm sure, except he would have put those dudes in the hospital.

Thanks for proving my point.You dont know what your talking about.

Batman would have made sure to gather enough info about the situation before he got involved.

As a matter of fact in a very similar situation Batman not only stopped a fight between a tenant that was getting evicted and a bad landlord with out getting anyone arrested, but he returned the next day as Bruce Wayne the bought the building and fixed up the place and set it up as low income housing.

So try reading up on a character before you start talking.

Because he was in a relationship with a girl that was barely 15 and is attracted to Supergirl whos 16.

The age of consent is 16 in New jersey where Metropolis is located. And Supergirl was likely 17 by that point having been 16 on her arrival and the brave and the bold story being set after months of amazon training and months spent with the legion. And as far as I know America doesn't prosecute for thought crimes.

Arisia was physically and mentally an adult by the time she and Hal started dating. It's no different to women who have dated Bart Allen or Connor Kent despite then both being chronologically a few years old.

So no laws broken. Also the correct tearm is Ephebophile. Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children not teenagers.

There is no definitive proof that its been retconed out.

Secret origin replacing Emerald dawn as Hal's canon origin says differently. While there's no proof Hal wasn't a drunk driver there's no proof he is.

Just as the fact that Hal hasn’t been able to maintained sales as a character for more then 8 years strait with out getting he books cancelled in the last 35 years speeks to his popularity..

Incorrect. Volume 2 lasted 12 year before taking a hiatus and then running for another 10 years. Volume three began following crisis on infinite Earths when Green lantern along with Superman and Wonder woman had their titles restarted. Volume three ran for 18 years which included both Hal and Kyle as Green Lanterns.

So what you call a bad book is outselling both Green Lantern titles.

That doesn't really mean much. One more day out sold All star Batman. Yet it's one of most reviled comic created in decades. Perhaps that it's a frank miller/Jim lee work about Batman that's aided in its sales. I remember Superman getting similar numbers during Jim lees run and that was hardly a spectacular arc. Hell Amazon's attack had pretty good numbers. Sales mean nothing about quality of character or the book.

Batman does consider Hal Jordan his friend. This been shown in Brave and the bold when he laugh and joked with Hal, in green lantern and as recently as Blackest Night zero. No he doesn't like him as much as Clark or Diana but they are friends just like all the silver age big seven are.

Of course Batman is more popular. He is an A list character. Only Superman and Spider-man have the same level of recognition. That has little bearing on this fight or who is a better person. The answer is yes Hal is a worse person than Batman, he's a much more flawed character. But Batman is hardly up at the top of the DCU list of nice people.

As for the Hal racism thing: Hal was made much more right wing in the 70’s so as to contrast with Green Arrow. It was bad writing. It’s no different to how Superman’s IQ drops 30 points when in Batman’s presence so as to make Batman useful or how Gladiator forgets all his powers when he has the temerity to fight someone weaker but more popular than him.

Batman too has had some terrible runs. Remember the pre-infinite crisis no A list writers on A list books DC policy? Those were dark days indeed. When we compare the excellent return of Bucky story to Jason Todd’s return the difference is obvious. It's like claiming the camp silver age alien fighting Batman is relevent to the modern Batman other than a vague possibly drug induced adventure to be written in the black casebook.

I like Batman he’s one of my favourite heroes I like him more than green lantern. Morrison’s run on Batman is one of my favourite runs on any hero. Hal’s not even my favourite Lantern. I’m a Kyle fan thanks to the 90’s JLA. However this needless character assination is rediculous.

Inferno Prime wrote:The age of consent is 16 in New jersey where Metropolis is located. And Supergirl was likely 17 by that point having been 16 on her arrival and the brave and the bold story being set after months of amazon training and months spent with the legion. And as far as I know America doesn't prosecute for thought crimes.

Whats "prosecuteable" isint the only issue here.And I believe they said she was still 16 even thou I admit its not logical.

Inferno Prime wrote:Arisia was physically and mentally an adult by the time she and Hal started dating.

Only because she used her ring to age herself.And I dont agree with the "mentally an adult" statement.

Inferno Prime wrote: So no laws broken.

Doesnt make it right.

Inferno Prime wrote: Also the correct tearm is Ephebophile. Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children not teenagers.

I knew that [ learned it watching S.V.U. ] but couldnt remember the correct spelling.

Inferno Prime wrote:Secret origin replacing Emerald dawn as Hal's canon origin says differently. While there's no proof Hal wasn't a drunk driver there's no proof he is.

Which is why I say its no "Definitive proof its been retconed".

Inferno Prime wrote: Incorrect. Volume 2 lasted 12 year before taking a hiatus and then running for another 10 years.

And Hal wasnt the only "STARING" hero in volume 2 before or after its hiatus.

And the hiatus was no much more then a short term cancellation.

Inferno Prime wrote: Volume three began following crisis on infinite Earths when Green lantern along with Superman and Wonder woman had their titles restarted. Volume three ran for 18 years which included both Hal and Kyle as Green Lanterns.

Again restating my statement that "Hal hasn’t been able to maintained sales as a character" since Kyle replaced him just about 50 issues into vol.3.

Inferno Prime wrote:That doesn't really mean much.

It means that not everyone agrees with his assessment of the book.

Inferno Prime wrote: One more day out sold All star Batman. Yet it's one of most reviled comic created in decades.

While I personally agree with your assment of "One more day" I find many in the comic shops and messege boards that are fond of the book and the new direction of Spiderman.

Me.... I dropped the book.

Inferno Prime wrote:Batman does consider Hal Jordan his friend. This been shown in Brave and the bold when he laugh and joked with Hal, in green lantern and as recently as Blackest Night zero. No he doesn't like him as much as Clark or Diana but they are friends just like all the silver age big seven are.

Which is what I've been saying.

Inferno Prime wrote:Of course Batman is more popular. He is an A list character. Only Superman and Spider-man have the same level of recognition. That has little bearing on this fight or who is a better person. The answer is yes Hal is a worse person than Batman, he's a much more flawed character. But Batman is hardly up at the top of the DCU list of nice people.

Agreed

Inferno Prime wrote:As for the Hal racism thing: Hal was made much more right wing in the 70’s so as to contrast with Green Arrow. It was bad writing.

I thought it was wonderful writting and gave some much needed personaloty,growth and depth to Hal.

Inferno Prime wrote: It’s no different to how Superman’s IQ drops 30 points when in Batman’s presence so as to make Batman useful or how Gladiator forgets all his powers when he has the temerity to fight someone weaker but more popular than him.

Basicly true.

Inferno Prime wrote:Batman too has had some terrible runs.

I never suggested otherwise.

Inferno Prime wrote:
I like Batman he’s one of my favourite heroes I like him more than green lantern. Morrison’s run on Batman is one of my favourite runs on any hero. Hal’s not even my favourite Lantern. I’m a Kyle fan thanks to the 90’s JLA.

Alan Scott is my fav GL followed by John Steward.

Inferno Prime wrote: However this needless character assination is rediculous.

It was a counter argument to some statement he made and couldnt back up.

Doesnt make it right.

Doesn't make it wrong either it's a grey area. Especially because he didn't act on it. He's on slightly less shaky ground than say wolverine.

Which is why I say its no "Definitive proof its been retconed".

The only story that shows his drink driving has been ret conned. Although I don't really care I personally enjoyed that story, but I do feel it’s not necessary to him as a character especially as Johns is trying to portray him.

And Hal wasnt the only "STARING" hero in volume 2 before or after its hiatus.

And the hiatus was no much more then a short term cancellation.

Still not cancelled nearly as often as you maintained. Still Hal has been a character that writers have trouble handling even more than superman. It's only Johns who has actually been able to actually make Green lantern a top property. If you really want to see Hal in a bad light read action comics weekly. Actually don't I wouldn't force it on anyone. Good lord was that a bad story.

While I personally agree with your assment of "One more day" I find many in the comic shops and messege boards that are fond of the book and the new direction of Spiderman.

Me.... I dropped the book.

The stories aren't so bad more slightly above average. However none of them are stories that couldn't be told if Mary Jane was there. It's like everything has gone back to seventies character wise, except with some Marvel brand faux-current events shoved in.

Now Flash has lost his leg in Iraq! Because in a world where mutants blow up half of Manhatten and time travellers nuke Washington the government still feels the need to invade Iraq. God the sliding time scale would put the start of the war around the time of onslaught.

You don't want to know how the memory erase thing has been handled.

Alan Scott is my fav GL followed by John Steward.

Well of course, no one with a soul could hate Alan Scott.

As for the other things, fair enough, I must of misread the tone of your posts.

Inferno Prime wrote:Doesn't make it wrong either it's a grey area. Especially because he didn't act on it.

As the father of 3 girls I completely disagree.

Inferno Prime wrote: He's on slightly less shaky ground than say wolverine.

Pardon my ignorance but to what are you referring to???

Inferno Prime wrote:The only story that shows his drink driving has been ret conned.

Thats depends on how you see it.

The drinking may not have been shown again after ED's 1&2 but it was refranced in other stories.

Untill I see or read that its been entirely retconed I'll continue to say theres no definitive answer on the topic.

Inferno Prime wrote: Although I don't really care I personally enjoyed that story, but I do feel it’s not necessary to him as a character especially as Johns is trying to portray him.

I can see your point.

To be honest the current story arc that Johns is putting out has actually made me like Hal a bit for the first time since the 70's.

And thats saying a lot.

Inferno Prime wrote:Still not cancelled nearly as often as you maintained.

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that one.

The way I see it [1]the hiatus ,[2]his book becoming a "Team up book" with Green Arrow and [3] his book becoming GL Corps is the same as getting canceled.

They were all caused by the fact that he couldnt maintain sales.

Inferno Prime wrote: Still Hal has been a character that writers have trouble handling even more than superman. It's only Johns who has actually been able to actually make Green lantern a top property.

Very true

Inferno Prime wrote: If you really want to see Hal in a bad light read action comics weekly. Actually don't I wouldn't force it on anyone. Good lord was that a bad story.

Are you talking about the late 80's early 90's run???

Inferno Prime wrote:The stories aren't so bad more slightly above average. However none of them are stories that couldn't be told if Mary Jane was there. It's like everything has gone back to seventies character wise, except with some Marvel brand faux-current events shoved in.

Quoted for truth.

I tryed to give them the benifit of the doubt and picked up the first 1\2 year of books after the change.

But the stories failed to keep the promis made when they announced the big change.Not one of those stories couldnt have been told with MJ around.

Inferno Prime wrote:Well of course, no one with a soul could hate Alan Scott.

Inferno Prime wrote:As for the other things, fair enough, I must of misread the tone of your posts.

Dont worry...I was just getting tirred of hearing so much crap about Batman and how he see's him but when you ask him why he has nothing to offer.

Pardon my ignorance but to what are you referring to???

In Ultimate Spider-man Wolverine and peter had their bodies switched. Wolverine tried some things with Mary Jane while in peters body. Later Mary jane told peter now back in his body could they wait till they were older to do the things they'd done earlier in the day again. Yes, the comic was a vague about what exactly happened as I was.

Still not as bad as Xavier

The 1988 to 89 run. Hal, Arisia, John and Katma tui living in an apartment togther. Highlights include Hal learning he literally has no fear. Apparently the ring removed it. After going on a talk show to discuss his problems he decided to use his ring to return his fear. He was promptly overcome by fear. He also decided to save someone from a fire without his ring to show his ability to conquer fear.

Inferno Prime wrote:

Pardon my ignorance but to what are you referring to???

In Ultimate Spider-man Wolverine and peter had their bodies switched. Wolverine tried some things with Mary Jane while in peters body. Later Mary jane told peter now back in his body could they wait till they were older to do the things they'd done earlier in the day again. Yes, the comic was a vague about what exactly happened as I was.

I'm not much of a fan of Marvels Untimate Universe so no wonder I didnt have a clue.

But I thought I read somewhere that Ultimate Wolverine wasnt as old as Regular U wolverine???

Inferno Prime wrote:Still not as bad as Xavier

Are you refering to what he did with Moonstar when the Shadow King was controling his body???

Inferno Prime wrote:The 1988 to 89 run. Hal, Arisia, John and Katma tui living in an apartment togther. Highlights include Hal learning he literally has no fear. Apparently the ring removed it. After going on a talk show to discuss his problems he decided to use his ring to return his fear. He was promptly overcome by fear. He also decided to save someone from a fire without his ring to show his ability to conquer fear.

yeah I remember that run.

The only think about it that I liked was the appearance of that other GL that went bad.

I forgot his name but he looked like a "Buffed up" Alan Scott.

Does the fact that hal helped bring down the landlord oncehe realized he was crooked count for nothing? If Hal was truly the horrible person you make him out to be, he wouldn't have done anything about it, regardless of what Green Arrow wanted. I'm not saying hal's a saint, but it annoys me when people like you say that he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. And I still don't see how that incident makes hal a racist, wasn't the guy who was attacking the landlord white, too? He sure wasn't black or Asian.

Dude let it die already.

God Thundercracker wrote:Does the fact that hal helped bring down the landlord oncehe realized he was crooked count for nothing?

Sure it does....but not all that much because it doesnt change his original actions.

God Thundercracker wrote: I'm not saying hal's a saint, but it annoys me when people like you say that he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever.

I never said that.

But I have been able to back every claim I've made about Hal.

Thats more then I can say about you and every things you've said about Batman.

God Thundercracker wrote: And I still don't see how that incident makes hal a racist, wasn't the guy who was attacking the landlord white, too?

No he wasnt.

God Thundercracker wrote: He sure wasn't black or Asian.

Do you think that those are the only 2 races that were discriminated against in the 70's???

Then what race was that guy? Did the comic ever say? I don't think it did. And if you think Hal is such a horrible person, doesn't it bother you that the sainted batman would EVER have been friends with someone like that???

Cant just let it go can you.....

God Thundercracker wrote:Then what race was that guy?

Either native American or Hispanic.

God Thundercracker wrote: Did the comic ever say?

I do believe the character showed up again later in the run, but its impossible to say if it was the same character.

God Thundercracker wrote: I don't think it did.

Thats irrelevant.

Fans of the work of Neal Adams from the 70's are quite familiar with his character models.

His character models for whites was quite different from those for his Native American\Hispanic looking characters.

Besides, the indecent with that kid wasnt the only one I pointed out.

God Thundercracker wrote: And if you think Hal is such a horrible person, doesn't it bother you that the sainted batman would EVER have been friends with someone like that???

I never once said "Hal is such a horrible person".I pointed out that the character of Hal has flaws when you started your Batman character assassination campaign......making statements you couldnt back up.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:A basic rundown is this story took place durring the 70's and at the time they were trying to tell more "social" stories.Basicly Hal comes on the scene of a "Slum lord" whos being confronted by one oh his tenants he's throwing out.

Hal, instead of trying to determin whats going on sides with the white business man


And this is taken from a scene where a Old Black man confronts Hal about how he works for Blue skinned perople and has helped other color skinned people on different worlds but has done nothing to help black skinned people on earth.

hmmmmm...the slum lord looks very white to me. As two the other two characters in the above images neither of them appear to be white and there not aliens so that really narrows the list down on who they are in terms of race.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Hal is racist I would say he's somewhat bigoted leaning more toward agreeing with the white man. When it comes down to it Hal will do the right thing but, it might take someone pointing it out to him.

Tristar wrote:hmmmmm...the slum lord looks very white to me. As two the other two characters in the above images neither of them appear to be white and there not aliens so that really narrows the list down on who they are in terms of race.

I wouldn't go as far as to say Hal is racist I would say he's somewhat bigoted leaning more toward agreeing with the white man. When it comes down to it Hal will do the right thing but, it might take someone pointing it out to him.

Yeah I pretty much see him a a young Archie Buncker with powers.

How do you know that kid was Hispanic? He could have been Italian. Aren't most Italians pretty dark? And at any rate, I don't think his race was an issue. Hal is basically a cop, and it's his job to keep the the peace. He was just acting like any cop would. I'm sure if the kid had been white, Hal would have reaced the same. He may have been wrong, but I don't think racism had anything to do with it.

God Thundercracker wrote:How do you know that kid was Hispanic? He could have been Italian. Aren't most Italians pretty dark? And at any rate, I don't think his race was an issue. Hal is basically a cop, and it's his job to keep the the peace. He was just acting like any cop would. I'm sure if the kid had been white, Hal would have reaced the same. He may have been wrong, but I don't think racism had anything to do with it.

Oh yeah, of course there's no such thing as a racist cop. Especially not in a city meant to represent cities like Los Angeles.

[/quote]

God Thundercracker wrote:How do you know that kid was Hispanic? He could have been Italian.

Dont you read the post that answer your questions???

I said in my post before.....

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
Fans of the work of Neal Adams from the 70's are quite familiar with his character models.

His character models for whites was quite different from those for his Native American\Hispanic looking characters.

So do you need me to say it again?????

Well here it is....

Fans of the work of Neal Adams from the 70's are quite familiar with his character models.

His character models for whites was quite different from those for his Native American\Hispanic looking characters.

I know the kid was was ment to be hispanic or Native American because I've very familar with the artist'es work and his character models from that era.

God Thundercracker wrote:Aren't most Italians pretty dark?

Not in my experience.

God Thundercracker wrote: And at any rate, I don't think his race was an issue.

It most certainly was.

Race relations was a back bone of those stories.

God Thundercracker wrote: Hal is basically a cop, and it's his job to keep the the peace. He was just acting like any cop would. I'm sure if the kid had been white, Hal would have reaced the same. He may have been wrong, but I don't think racism had anything to do with it.

Well the writter of that story disagrees with you.And I'll take his word on that issue over yours any day of the week.

And Hal's "racist like" tendencies were commented on by other characters in the book.

Personally, I find Hal to be a much better character than Batman. I think he is more relatable than Batman, has more depth and is a lot more likable. And even if Batman got a yellow ring, Hal would still kick his ass.

God Thundercracker wrote:Personally, I find Hal to be a much better character than Batman. I think he is more relatable than Batman, has more depth and is a lot more likable. And even if Batman got a yellow ring, Hal would still kick his ass.

You like dragging up dead topics dont you???

Well your welcome to your opinion, but the facts are that Hal hasnt proven to be a very interesting character over the years.

His books have been canceled more then once and its mostly been because he's not very relatable, interesting or had much depth to beging with.

It wasnt till they made Hal a "mass murdering nut bag" that he got any real depth.

I will admit that they are dooing a great job with him currently......but lets see how long that last.

And as for who beats who?????......

Even Green Arrow has proven very capable of preventing Hal from useing his ring in a fight....and what GA can do Batman has prefected.

Batmans already proven he can take Hal, and with out any ring I might add.

When has Batman ever proven that he can take Hal?

God Thundercracker wrote:When has Batman ever proven that he can take Hal?

Dude I already proved that to you back on page 1 of this debate.

Batman can knock just about anyone out with 1 punch if he chose to, I dare say he could just about kill someone with one punch if he wanted.

If Bats can lay hands on Hal its all over for Hal.



Hal can easily be taken by surprise by Batman.



Batman takes Hal.....its time you face up to it.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:Batman can knock just about anyone out with 1 punch if he chose to, I dare say he could just about kill someone with one punch if he wanted.

You're exaggerating. There's a big long list of people Batman couldn't take down with fists alone, and a sizeable list he can't take down with both fists and cunning.

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:If Bats can lay hands on Hal its all over for Hal.

We're talking about an experienced Green Lantern here. His ring lets him stay a very comfortable distance away from his enemies.

I have to reiterate what I'm fairly certain I said earlier in this thread; if Hal doesn't know Batman is out for his blood, Batman probably wins, assuming Hal can't act fast enough. (Which I'm not denying is a possibility) If Hal is aware he's fighting Batman, Hal wins.

Shadowman wrote:You're exaggerating. There's a big long list of people Batman couldn't take down with fists alone, and a sizeable list he can't take down with both fists and cunning.

Hardly exaggerating.I'm not trying to say Bat can take everyone but you cant deny he would be capable of taking down most.

As long as the list of people he couldnt knock out I'm betting that the list he could would be longer or at the very least just as long.

The DCU has a very long list of low powered meta humans and just as many non powered baddies and regular characters.

We're talking about an experienced Green Lantern here. His ring lets him stay a very comfortable distance away from his enemies.

I have to reiterate what I'm fairly certain I said earlier in this thread; if Hal doesn't know Batman is out for his blood, Batman probably wins, assuming Hal can't act fast enough. (Which I'm not denying is a possibility) If Hal is aware he's fighting Batman, Hal wins.

Highly doubtful.

Even with all of Hal's experience he has been taken by supprise quite often.

The only way Hal takes it is if he try's to take Bat's unawares.

Even knowing Bats is coming Hal cant be on guard all the time.

Like I said above, even Green Arrow recently used a devise to scatter Hals concentration.....and Hal was in a fight mode at the time.

And if GA can come up with a devise like that Bats can.

The only way Batman could EVER beat Hal is if he caught Hal without his ring, which would never happen. Hal, unlike Guy Gardner, would be too smart to fight Batman without his ring on. The only reason that Batman was able to lay a hand on Hal in GL 9 is because Hal LET him, because he knew Brucie boy needed to get it out of his system. And notice that Hal was not knocked unconscious like Gardner was, he got right back up.

God Thundercracker wrote:The only way Batman could EVER beat Hal is if he caught Hal without his ring, which would never happen. Hal, unlike Guy Gardner, would be too smart to fight Batman without his ring on. The only reason that Batman was able to lay a hand on Hal in GL 9 is because Hal LET him, because he knew Brucie boy needed to get it out of his system. And notice that Hal was not knocked unconscious like Gardner was, he got right back up.

In your dreams.

I agree Hal can take a punch better then Guy but the only reason Hal wasnt knocked unconscious was because that wasnt what Batman wanted.

And if your implying that Hal let Batman hit him then Hal is pretty stupid, and that doesnt beging to explain how Batman supprised Hal while driving.

Batman has mastered every hand to hand fighting technique known to man kind including the "Vibrating hand technique".

And if you follow the myth of the "Vibrating hand technique" you would know that all is required of Batman it to touch his opponent once to bring him down.

Thats one touch if Batman chose.

And not only that But Bat's is fully capable of rendering Hal incapable on the concentration needed to control the ring and could prolong the fight longer then the ring can maintain a charge.