The Energon Pub

oh yes, and in Exodus 22:18, the Hebrew word there is poisoner, not witch - that part was added later by the Europeans, specifically the English.

Christians say everything not like them is Evil usaully, only the offensive, retarded, despots, not those Rowan Atkinson in Keeping Mum-like preachers.

Glyph wrote:I can say that I am a Christian with a 100% belief in absolute Biblical truth. I also enjoy Harry Potter, a lot.

I agree with you as I am the same way.

The Time Traveller wrote:Christians say everything not like them is Evil usaully, only the offensive, retarded, despots, not those Rowan Atkinson in Keeping Mum-like preachers.

You should change this to "some Christians"..
Not all of us think so radically.

BTW, if you want to look at a typical "what is canonical" debate like this without the religious baggage...

Look at the debates we have about TF... people make mistakes and have frequently misconstrued everything.

Even i have been kinda accused of this. Yes, i know the comic's origin of the TransFormers but I was just speculating that they in all actuality would be an alien transcendent species who gave up their forms for these metal ones millenia ago and whose origins as such like within the realm of their own legends. My candidate for the original race is probably crystalline - Cybertronian civilization is almost as old as the universe!

I had frankly forgotten that this was the origin of the Go-Bots.... and i was just bringing it up in a thread about transhumanism anyhoo.

Glyph wrote:

The Time Traveller wrote:Christians say everything not like them is Evil usaully, only the offensive, retarded, despots, not those Rowan Atkinson in Keeping Mum-like preachers.

The Bible says that everything not like God is evil. There's a difference.

It also tells Christians that they must not presume to judge others. See previous sentence for why.

So man was not made in God's image?

DesalationReborn wrote:

Glyph wrote:

The Time Traveller wrote:Christians say everything not like them is Evil usaully, only the offensive, retarded, despots, not those Rowan Atkinson in Keeping Mum-like preachers.

The Bible says that everything not like God is evil. There's a difference.

It also tells Christians that they must not presume to judge others. See previous sentence for why.

So man was not made in God's image?

There's a difference between Fiction and Non Fiction, Harry Potter and the Bible are both fictitious works that no one should ever take seriously.

The Time Traveller wrote:

DesalationReborn wrote:

Glyph wrote:

The Time Traveller wrote:Christians say everything not like them is Evil usaully, only the offensive, retarded, despots, not those Rowan Atkinson in Keeping Mum-like preachers.

The Bible says that everything not like God is evil. There's a difference.

It also tells Christians that they must not presume to judge others. See previous sentence for why.

So man was not made in God's image?

There's a difference between Fiction and Non Fiction, Harry Potter and the Bible are both fictitious works that no one should ever take seriously.

I mean no disrespect to any christians or other branching religions, but this post made me giggle.

Neko wrote:

The Time Traveller wrote:

DesalationReborn wrote:

Glyph wrote:

The Time Traveller wrote:Christians say everything not like them is Evil usaully, only the offensive, retarded, despots, not those Rowan Atkinson in Keeping Mum-like preachers.

The Bible says that everything not like God is evil. There's a difference.

It also tells Christians that they must not presume to judge others. See previous sentence for why.

So man was not made in God's image?

There's a difference between Fiction and Non Fiction, Harry Potter and the Bible are both fictitious works that no one should ever take seriously.

I mean no disrespect to any christians or other branching religions, but this post made me giggle.

I do believe there's actually a sticker for it.

Glyph wrote:

Neko wrote:

The Time Traveller wrote:There's a difference between Fiction and Non Fiction, Harry Potter and the Bible are both fictitious works that no one should ever take seriously.

I mean no disrespect to any christians or other branching religions, but this post made me giggle.

I might point out the rules regarding blatant disrespect for other posters and their beliefs, however.

To DR, although it's moving off-topic: yes, Christians believe that Man was created in God's image, which is to say that he shares some characteristics with God. He then shunted himself away from God with the whole sin thing. Easy, yes? Compare Jesus' later statement "Only God is good" or Paul's teaching "Everyone has sinned and fallen short of God".

I'm still out on how something "good" can preform evil unless it was intended, and thus not totally good at all. As well, so now is man both bad and good?

Glyph wrote:It's called free will. If mankind had no option to disobey, what virtue would there be in his obedience?

Don't really want to address anything but this, other than the whole black-and-white deal, which just doesn't sit with me well when considering modern society.

I've never been the one to understand the concept of 'free will'-- I personally feel it's a fable. Sure, one chooses what he does, but that very choice is determinate mainly on A) the cause(s) of the action (for which it is a reactant) and B) the prior disposition or 'will' of the individual which is as ingrained as pure genetics.

Thus, the actions performed by the being are determinate on both past circumstances leading to the being's creation, and the outside forces affecting him, so there is no independent, total decision by the individual of who he wants to be and what he wants to do--he is always under the influence of the universe and leaving his fate and inclination bound by things outside his control. He is not free.

Thus, it is not the sum total responsibility of him for what he becomes-- it is everything's and nothing's responsibility-- it is merely fate working itself out. The only sense of 'responsibility' I accept is what happens to me based upon what I have agreed to or understand will happen, especially through the understanding of causality and restraint, which not everyone is gifted with. I know if I steal, people will seek to fine and imprison me, so in committing the crime I accept the risk and possible consequences. It is more acceptance than anything.

However, if a being outside causality (which I really cannot grasp as a possibility) chose to create this grand scenario in which things it knew would find displeasing to itself would happen, than that would be of its own fault, and therefore to punish the beings inside for participating in a machination of its own construction as laid out by it is just baffling.

EDIT: Please explain virtue. Although I wouldn't find obedience a particularly admirable trait, couldn't everyone be made out to do exactly as the deity wanted if the chips were laid out right?

DesalationReborn wrote:B) the prior disposition or 'will' of the individual which is as ingrained as pure genetics.

Disposition is not pure genetics, there is a strong indecation that enviroment is a contributor and there is some argument about how much of each is in the final mix. I personally think that it varies some from person to person.

That being said I believe that humans are animals, but animals with a soul/higher mind (or whatever you want to call it). We have instincts that are strongly modified by genetics (and nutured by enviroment) ,however I STRONGLY believe that a human without some sort of major brain damage is able to override those instincts. That to me is Free Will. Not that it is easy ,in fact it's not, or even common but it is possible.

I truely hate it when someone actions are excused because "he/she can't help it" or "that just the way are". I used to work with a guy who had 12+ children by at least 5 women ,none of whom he was married to and had to have a court order to pay child support. All of this before his mid 30s and all the women who worked there and most of his "women" excused this because "that is just the way guys are". I realize he had a cultural background that made it hard for him to break out of this cycle but being excused doesn't make it any harder. ... ok that was a rant that was only sort of related to my original point so I'll end it.

zorian wrote:

DesalationReborn wrote:B) the prior disposition or 'will' of the individual which is as ingrained as pure genetics.

Disposition is not pure genetics, there is a strong indecation that enviroment is a contributor and there is some argument about how much of each is in the final mix. I personally think that it varies some from person to person.

even so this only reiforces Des's point, we do not control our environment NOR our genetics, thus the will of of the idividual remains out of the control of the individual

zorian wrote:That being said I believe that humans are animals, but animals with a soul/higher mind (or whatever you want to call it). We have instincts that are strongly modified by genetics (and nutured by enviroment) ,however I STRONGLY believe that a human without some sort of major brain damage is able to override those instincts. That to me is Free Will. Not that it is easy ,in fact it's not, or even common but it is possible.

so can a dog override is need to poo indoors with the proper training, that said, very few humans are free to choose who they love, they love them regardless of wether it is good, or bad for them.

I saw Harry Potter drown a puppy once. Perhaps that makes him evil.

This issue is far more complicated of what it seems.

All humans when born and begin to use its reason, want to explain the things that surround them. As a child or primitive man has an egocentric view, that leads him to explain things accourding to an anthropomorphic view, that is, that beings who think like him are the causes for the events he sees. That is how magical thinking begins. Explaining things as result of intelligences that one can please, order or make angry. All childs began thinking like that, assigning personality to inanimated things. Its a stage of human development, the pre-logic thinking or magical thinking.

About evilness of magic, as stated above, most of the real, working magic of biblical times involved the creation of poisons and drugs to achieve altered states. Basically, translated to our days, this commandment should say something like don't leave living drug dealers and poisoners.

About other things usually recalled in christian circles as magic, remember you christians, that the first guys to pinpoint the mission of Jesus Christ in Earth exactly, were students of occult arts, the wise men, Zoroastrian priests/astrologers, they knew stars could be a prediction of things happening in earth (astrology), so they came following a star to Israel, they knew, through occult arts, that they will be visiting a king, so they brought gold; they knew that it wasn't only a king, but a god, so they brought frankincense that usually is burned before a god, and they knew the king-god would suffer, so they brough myrrh, that is a drug to ease the pain. So... three real life mages knew that baby Jesus was a king-god and that he would suffer... first than anyone in Israel... How can magic be so bad then?