The Energon Pub

So should the title prime be reserved for the matrix holder ala g1? or used as a badge of office like in animated?

should optimus be a fire truck, a big rig, or a monkey?

are g1 g2 RID and the unicron trilogy even remotely connected?

what is cannon with some of the contradictions? most recent?

Are definitions for something different from one series to another (like the transmetal debate?)

... what?

Other than the Beast Era and G1, I think about every separate series/universe is a separate idea and different take on Transformers. Things contradict because they're not the same.

Beast Wars/Machines isn't in the same universe as any pre-existing TF universe.

Sledge wrote:Beast Wars/Machines isn't in the same universe as any pre-existing TF universe.

I thought it had definite connections and references to G1. Why do you say it's separate?

Because it wasn't conceived as a sequel to G1, and some of the ham-handedly added references don't make sense in the context of a G1 universe.

Name_Violation wrote:should optimus be a fire truck, a big rig, or a monkey?

Trukk not munky!

Optimum Supreme wrote:

Name_Violation wrote:should optimus be a fire truck, a big rig, or a monkey?

Trukk not munky!

yeah

and

big rig not fire truck

Sledge wrote:Beast Wars/Machines isn't in the same universe as any pre-existing TF universe.

What exactly contradicts it not being part of G1 continuty? It seems fit in nicely in my mind, as its entirely based off following G1 up(which was one of the things that imediately struck me as awesome about the series). It might retconned a few things, like actually naming the nemesis and what not, but I dont see why it does. Enlight me otherwise.

Starscream's ghost. Energon. Those two alone should do it.

Sledge wrote:Starscream's ghost. Energon. Those two alone should do it.

Screamers ghost doesnt really contradict it though, as he could have died and came back as a spark again after he got his body back from unicron, or the whole event in beast wars happen before he got his body back since whole time travel deal anyways.. Infact the entire thing in beast wars just expanded on it(as concept of sparks didnt exist till then as they do in all other following series).

Energon, so what if it existed on earth. I fail see how that really counters G1, given G1 contradicted itself several times anyways. Not like it had the tightest continuty to begin with. The whole megatron and constructicons who made who deal is enough say that any retcons beast wars did, is nothing compared to what G1 did to itself. Not like beast wars went brand new day on G1, just just tweaked a few minor things, but over all refined stuff.

My personal canon will always have them together.It makes G1 cooler with it that way than with out.

Sledge wrote:... what?

I assume that this tread is being started as a result of an ongoing debate I'm having with an other member.

It stems from the fact that the Cartoon idea of what the requirements to be a called "Transmetal" differ from those in the toyline and the comic book.

Sledge wrote:Beast Wars/Machines isn't in the same universe as any pre-existing TF universe.

Technically they are connected to the G1 toon universe by offical statement by Hasbro after the fact..

But that wasnt so clear when the shows was being created.

Sledge wrote:Starscream's ghost. Energon. Those two alone should do it.

Please explain.

In the mean time to answer the original question posted by "Name_Violation"

Name_Violation wrote:So should the title prime be reserved for the matrix holder ala g1? or used as a badge of office like in animated?

I dont think it really makes a difference.

Every character named Prime or Primal [that I can think of] since G1 has been the leader.Either he's been the leader of all or of the group in the show but he has been the leader.

So I would argue that the name "Prime" has always been "a badge of office".

Name_Violation wrote:should optimus be a fire truck, a big rig, or a monkey?

I dont think it matters as long as he has the right character.

Name_Violation wrote:are g1 g2 RID and the unicron trilogy even remotely connected?

I believe that Simon Furmans "The Ultimate Guide to Transformers" established that all TF universes exist inside of a TF multiverse.

Name_Violation wrote:what is cannon with some of the contradictions? most recent?

Again in Simons book that attempted to settle some of the contradictions.....but ultimately failed to do an adequate job.

Name_Violation wrote:Are definitions for something different from one series to another (like the transmetal debate?)

I would have to say yes.....but I'm sure you knew that.

And to answer your title question....

Name_Violation wrote: How seperate are the universes considered

About as seprate as you would consider stories from any two universes.

If your a comic book fan you may get what I'm saying....

Marvels 616 universe is a separate universe from its Ultimate universe.

They may both have a "Spiderman" but its not the same "Spiderman".

Name_Violation wrote:So should the title prime be reserved for the matrix holder ala g1? or used as a badge of office like in animated?

should optimus be a fire truck, a big rig, or a monkey?

are g1 g2 RID and the unicron trilogy even remotely connected?

what is cannon with some of the contradictions? most recent?

Are definitions for something different from one series to another (like the transmetal debate?)

Most consider every cartoon after Beast Machines to be different universes. Athough Armada, Energion and Cybertron supposedly happens in the same universe. This is pretty much considered fact.

The rest of this response is my opinion. I like to try to connect these universes into my own G1 universe. For instance. Cybertron Hot Shot is actually in my G1 universe and so is Armada Demoliser.
To answer some of the questions above, only the Autobot leader, the one with the Matrix should have the title Prime.
Optimus Prime is always a big rig. Fire trucks are named Fire Convoy or something.
I combine G1 with G2 and try to get rid of Beast Wars (or at least remake it) and totally get rid of Beast Machines (cause it sucked)
A

Screamers ghost doesnt really contradict it though, as he could have died and came back as a spark again after he got his body back from unicron, or the whole event in beast wars happen before he got his body back since whole time travel deal anyways.. Infact the entire thing in beast wars just expanded on it(as concept of sparks didnt exist till then as they do in all other following series).

Starscream's ghost can't be floating around during the Beast Wars. He's not dead at this time. Remember that it later transpires that the planet they're on is prehistoric Earth? If Screamer travelled back in time somehow, why doesn't the story mention it? See, what's happening here is the story not being fully formed at the time Starscream is written in.

Energon, so what if it existed on earth. I fail see how that really counters G1, given G1 contradicted itself several times anyways.

So cite me your example from G1 of when energon was naturally-occurring and harmful to Transformers. Don't try and fudge the issue with "well, G1 had errors as well," and especially not with something as easily dismissed as the Constructicon thing.

Starscream's ghost can't be floating around during the Beast Wars. He's not dead at this time. Remember that it later transpires that the planet they're on is prehistoric Earth? If Screamer travelled back in time somehow, why doesn't the story mention it? See, what's happening here is the story not being fully formed at the time Starscream is written in.

No his space show floating thru space,and like depth charge could easily winded up stumbling thru it in same manner as there was a transwarp gate there. He wasnt dead in the prehistoric earth if thats what you re trying suggest. It all made sense that he simply ended up there from the future. Even if they supposedly werent on prehistoic earth, they still went back thru time, that was always part of the story. Dinobot just acuse them of going to wrong planet, but prime at the begining of the show says the predacons can be any were and in time and space. Never did they say they didnt go thru time. It seemed whole story was planned out to that far, they might not made mention to how screamer got there to not spoil the surprise twist that came with season 2. He obivously had cross the transwarp gate somehow or how else would he ended up in the same exact time and space as them.


(read the episode data as says nothing about his presence being a continuty error. http://transformers.wikia.com/wiki/Possession )

Transformers referencesObviously, Starscream himself firmly ties Beast Wars to established G1 history. Though you could argue that Waspinator thinking he was Shrapnel already did this. Starscream's spark, or "ghost" as it was then called, had possessed several Decepticons (including Cyclonus, Scourge, Astrotrain, and Trypticon) in the G1 episodes "Starscream's Ghost" and "Ghost in the Machine." It's nothing new that his spark is pretty durable. One of the Predacon insignias on the side of Waspinator's cranium changes into Decepticon insignia while Starscream's spark is inhabiting his superstructure.

So cite me your example from G1 of when energon was naturally-occurring and harmful to Transformers. Don't try and fudge the issue with "well, G1 had errors as well," and especially not with something as easily dismissed as the Constructicon thing.

How about you cite that it cant exist in an unstable form naturally instead as no where in G1 said it couldnt. It wasnt normal energon, it was unstable.Once it all exploded during the vok attack or reformed stable energron it wasnt harmful to transformers. That didnt contradict G1 never touched on this aspect of it as being unstable, though characters are shown be overloaded with in G1 form too much energy in a simliar manner.(such as scourage with the plasma reactor.)

The constructicon thing(its 3 episodes contradicting each other) isnt easily dismissed,except if you re trying load your argument heh. Thats like the matrix of leadership retcon being dismissed easily. We saw prime get X rayed in prime probelm(or him using it to contact vector sigma in rebirth but not in key to vector sigma when alpha trion had to merge with it). If it was there then they would have known it was a fake since megatron didnt have a matrix in the fake. Theres plenty of continuity errors with in the series in anycase. (or like them claiming vector sigma is needed give transformers life, then they made the dinobots,trypticon,combaticons and the technobots all without it.)

Well if you really want to screw things up you can look at it the way that Takara currently is and say that they are all one continuity as referenced here.

As for the Prime issue, The only reason we have as many characters named Optimus Prime/Primal is that what it takes to sell toys. similar to the Convoy designation in Japan.

Sledge wrote:Starscream's ghost can't be floating around during the Beast Wars. He's not dead at this time. Remember that it later transpires that the planet they're on is prehistoric Earth? If Screamer travelled back in time somehow, why doesn't the story mention it? See, what's happening here is the story not being fully formed at the time Starscream is written in.

But that would be more or a "Plot hole" then it is a contradiction.

Neglecting to mention things in an episode isint all that uncommon on tv shows.

And I believe it was assumed that Starscreams ghost traveled back in time threw the same rift that all the BW characters traveled trew...including Deathcharge, Ravage and the signal from Cybertron.

Sledge wrote:So cite me your example from G1 of when energon was naturally-occurring and harmful to Transformers. Don't try and fudge the issue with "well, G1 had errors as well," and especially not with something as easily dismissed as the Constructicon thing.

Energon was not naturally occurring on earth durring the Beast wars....they were a result of the Vok experiment.....if I remember right.

But even if its not a contradiction.....the earth may have had a different capacity in the past that was no longer evident durring the G1 years.

Even the oxygen count has dramatically changed on earth between those years so maybe earth could have produced energon in the past and no longer can.

Lastjustice wrote:The constructicon thing(its 3 episodes contradicting each other) isnt easily dismissed,except if you re trying load your argument heh.

Actually it can be easily dismissed.....and with out "loading the argument" as you called it because the evidence is supporting the idea that the "so called" contradictions are more of a "perception" issue then they are based on any facts shown or heard in the cartoon.....and that evidence comes from the toons pre-production bible.

Lastjustice wrote: Thats like the matrix of leadership retcon being dismissed easily.

Funny

Lastjustice wrote:(or him using it to contact vector sigma in rebirth but not in key to vector sigma when alpha trion had to merge with it).

That is eazy to explain.....Prime may not have known that he was capable of useing the Matrix to contact Vector Sigma

Lastjustice wrote:(or like them claiming vector sigma is needed give transformers life, then they made the dinobots,trypticon,combaticons and the technobots all without it.)

Out of all the ones you listed only Trypticon poses a delima

The Combaticon were not newly made personalities....they were pre-exsisting TF's that were given new bodies

And it was implied that Vector sigma "Programed" TF's for life.....so its possible to assume that a person or robot with enough intelligence may be capable of programing TF life.

So it may be that Wheeljack almost was smart enough to program TF life when he made the Dinos......and Grimlock was smart enough when he programed the Technobots for life.

but I'll admit thats a bit of "loading" the argument

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
I believe that Simon Furmans "The Ultimate Guide to Transformers" established that all TF universes exist inside of a TF multiverse.

...as proved in the TF:Armada comics,"Worlds Collide" saga.

DIDICOS wrote:

sto_vo_kor_2000 wrote:
I believe that Simon Furmans "The Ultimate Guide to Transformers" established that all TF universes exist inside of a TF multiverse.

...as proved in the TF:Armada comics,"Worlds Collide" saga.

Also with Funpub's convention comics. Just look at the Fan club conbiner not just made up of 5 bots, but from 5 continuities as well.

Skyfall: Cybertron/Unicron Trilogy
Landquake: Convention Timelines
Breakaway: Classics
Topspin: Transtech
Heatwave: Shattered Glass

Starscream states himself that his spark was "beyond the reach of time itself".

This is a fairly obvious allusion to how he came to be in the Beast Wars.

As for energon... Well why is it so hard to believe that various processes on earth would eventually turn energon to other, more traditional sources of energy?

Don't forget that water can condensate and be frozen, changing form in a way that makes Energon's transformation more than believable.

I don't see how anybody can argue Beast Wars is in any way unrelated to G1. The Agenda cements the relation fairly damn clearly. I mean... there's no question about it. Beast Wars follows G1. The same characters appear in both. Optimus Prime and Megatron appear in their G1 forms right there in the show. What's to question?

Well Scatterlung,

It's like RIRFIB, no matter what evidence is presented, or what the people who have worked on the shows, or sometimes even word from Hasbro/TakaraTomy themselves, If somebody feels that the connection is or isn't there, They are right and everyone else is blind.

Sledge has every right to his opinion, and if for him they aren't connected than that is his right, regardless of your, mine or Lastjustices opinion.

Just like my opinion is that they are clearly connected and Sledge I really hope you are kidding on this one.

The Takara stand that thanks to Kiss Players, Car Robots happened in G1 during the time lapse between B.O.T. and the Movie is one thing, But the placement of Beasties in the G1 Timeline is pretty Canon at this point. Yes there were some continuity errors, and it is possible they were just shooting at the wind before trying to tie everything down into established continuity, but as posted before, the events of the later story arcs, cement things to make the connection.

Yes Beast wars are G1, Saddly this also means that Beast machines is G1, I may not like all aspects of it, but I accept what it is.

Well, I don't wanna sound intolerant or anything so I hope it doesn't come off this way but

The Beast Era is part of G1, that's the "official canon", thats what Hasbro (and Takara?) have established. End of.

Now, Sledge is perfectly entitled to his own personal cannon in which G1 and BW are seperate. That's fine. My personal cannon is that they aren't (and yes, its sad to think BM is part of it all) like the official. But I don't think any person can really show up and prove that the Beast Era was seperate officially because... it wasn't. It just wasn't. Like black isn't white.

That said, if he's going on the fact that Bob Forward and Larry DiTillio had no idea what they were doing for most of the first season, then yeah, I can understand the confusion. They only made vague allusions to it being linked to G1 because they weren't sure if they were going to at first, then sometime in the second season they decided to roll with it and made Beast Wars a direct sequel (to the G1 mythos as opposed to the comic or cartoon series).

But I'd still like to maintain that Beast Wars is a sequel to G1 set in the same universe (kinda) officially, the same way any episode in G1 is a sequel to the episode that precedes it (plot holes and inconsistencies not withstanding). But if someone wants to say that they're not, thats fine for their personal cannon, but they can't say its official.

Yeah I know, I said the same thing like four times.